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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

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Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#341 - 2013-03-15 20:55:25 UTC
SW:TOR being called an example of doing things "right" makes me see red.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#342 - 2013-03-15 21:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
SW:TOR being called an example of doing things "right" makes me see red.


Only in the sense that making the part that players were seeing before buying the game (90% of beta players never went past 20 and the few who warned that the initial level of storytelling would not be kept up were shouted down in the forum) so much better than the rest was good enough to make people BUY the game.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#343 - 2013-03-15 21:17:27 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
SW:TOR being called an example of doing things "right" makes me see red.


Only in the sense that making the part that players were seeing before buying the game (90% of beta players never went past 20 and the few who warned that the initial level of storytelling would not be kept up were shouted down in the forum) so much better than the rest was good enough to make people BUY the game.

Right. So SW:TOR was a poorly developed cash grab without a respectable amount of substance provided to the players. In fact, it could be said the game itself is an insult to the consumer and industry as a whole.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#344 - 2013-03-15 21:48:39 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
SW:TOR being called an example of doing things "right" makes me see red.


Only in the sense that making the part that players were seeing before buying the game (90% of beta players never went past 20 and the few who warned that the initial level of storytelling would not be kept up were shouted down in the forum) so much better than the rest was good enough to make people BUY the game.

Right. So SW:TOR was a poorly developed cash grab without a respectable amount of substance provided to the players. In fact, it could be said the game itself is an insult to the consumer and industry as a whole.


Pretty much.

Now imagine the success EVE would have if CCP just learned from the only lesson that can be learned from the SW:TOR fiasco.
DSpite Culhach
#345 - 2013-03-16 06:55:27 UTC
I'm going to have a go here.

Looking at the entire EVE skill tree and saying "It will take me years to do things" is a little excessive.

Most MMO's have classes. So you pick "Ranger" and everything you get is Ranger related. This would be no different then picking say Caldari, going all out on missile ships, starting at frigs, moving up, and fully fitting T2 on Ravens after a few months; I mean, Battleships are the largest stuff you can really fly on your own anyway.

Wanting also to be Black-Op's, and Logistics and ECM is no different then saying "well, I also want to be a Thief, Healer and Mage", well, good luck with that. Most MMO's will either NOT let you at all, or penalize your XP for trying. EVE just makes you train for it.

To have fun, you don't need T2 stuff. Tech 2/Deadspace/officer gear and special ammo is sort of like having Artifacts in Fantasy MMO. It will give you an edge, and will make you "optimal" for things like Incursions or running in Wormholes, but players that know optimal ranges and can manage overheating and know how ships handle and what they can and can't track with the guns they see will still kick your ass, because they can look at your ship, do a bit of mental math and say "I can take that on", rather then simply hope that they can.

In a normal MMO, three low level characters can;t really even hurt a single high level one. In EVE, 3 well prepared idiots in frigates can ambush, scramble, and shut down a blingy battleship and blow it up.

EVE is rather unique. Comparing it to other games (I tried) is very difficult. All I can say is that I did whack into the wall, and then did my best to work around it, and I have to admit, I don't actually mind it now.

I think most people look at the really big stuff and think "I'll never fly that" rather then "this is what I have, what can I blow up with it right now".

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Zoyx Ruhroh
A-OK Logistics and Fabrication
StoneGuard Alliance
#346 - 2013-03-17 15:02:14 UTC
Swtor was a disaster through and through. But this thread was going places right from the moment the OP compared it to wow. It's just a different mentality... one where you cannot bring your grind-to-max-level-in-a-week strategy. I'm glad to be done with the grind reset every two years.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#347 - 2013-03-17 15:17:45 UTC
1) You can be a perfect mining character in just over 1 month
2) You can Do level 4 missions in less than 2 months
3) You can join Incursions in a Frigate in your first month
4) You can join FW in a frigate in your first month
5) You can gank people in low-sec in a thorax in your first month
6) You can join an alliance and tackle people, or fly a Tier3 BC inside of 2 months
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#348 - 2013-03-17 16:16:32 UTC
Didn't we have all that before? You even expand the denial by coming up with implausible myths.

True Sight wrote:
1) You can be a perfect mining character in just over 1 month


108 days without implants and that's only maximum ore gain, no fitting skills and no refining.

(Still irrelevant to 90% of newbs this thread is about, but shows just how off you are here.)

Quote:

2) You can Do level 4 missions in less than 2 months


Slowly, but in principle yes. Maelstrom with skills in the 4s should be possible in a bit over 2 months.
Of course you'll have to fly the thing fitted like a loot pinata.

Quote:

3) You can join Incursions in a Frigate in your first month


What? Are you planning to replace a scimitar or a machariel with your frigate?

Quote:

4) You can join FW in a frigate in your first month
5) You can gank people in low-sec in a thorax in your first month
6) You can join an alliance and tackle people, or fly a Tier3 BC inside of 2 months


Not everyone's cup of tea for the risk involved or the necessity to have some connections, but yes, i'll concede you can do that.

(Only irrelevant to about 60% newbs, too, so yay)
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#349 - 2013-03-17 17:04:14 UTC
i read the first 7 pages of the thread, then the last two i think.

first of all: I will, as others did before me in this thread, feed the troll.

this toon is rather old, but only has about 30 mill SP. why ? because i quit 3 times i think and always came back.
no other game has had that long lasting grip on me and believe me, i played quiet a bit MMO´s.

when i started , we rushed into cruisers and battleships and fitted MINING LASERS on them, and snuck into 0.0 space.
it was much more deserted that time (yes at least in my memories...) and of corse i was killed plenty of times by players
with bigger ships and better skills.

this toon is a jack of all trades . he does some stuff well, some not so.
but the whole point of a skill wall ist just plain nonsense.

when i asked in my first pvp corp what i could do they said: "tackle is always needed"

or "frig ? perfect. scout for us.... mr leeroy :-)"

i dont know where the attitude that one has to be able to do everything right from the start comes from ??
i didnt have that experience in NO mmo i ever played. i remember standing in my virtual appartment in the game "Neocron" back in the days for literally days to manufacture psi-boosters. it was a pain in the ass and sloow money, but highly skilled players depended on those boosters and paid good money for them. so i built them. and i didnt feel little or "used".

it was a natural stepping stone in an MMO " career "....

what the OP is proposing is a system where nobody has to work for anything, can reach everything within a matter of days. or are days too much waiting time, too ??

also: copy & paste of the same text over and over is rude, annoying and should get you mocked.
on another note: i think anyone too much in the OP´s side in this thread is either an alt or has not read the stupid and sometimes plain insulting posts in this thread
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#350 - 2013-03-17 17:07:51 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
First off:
Why would any veteran player want a noob to be his equal?
A PvP pilot wouldn't
A miner wouldn't for sure.
A trader wouldn't


Second:
Most noobs wiil lose EVERY SHIP THEY FLY for the first 50 to 100 fights. Skill books have nothing to do with that. Experience and guidance does.
Are you proposing to put them in more expensive ships so they can take bigger losses? THAT would probably be game breaking.

The game has a well thought out progression rate.
Level 1's-Make some isk, learn to pilot, skill for ships n weapons
Level 2's-Better isk, harder rats, skills are coming along
Level 3's-Isk is getting serious, skills are starting to be cohesive, first venture into a BC
Level 4's-Your income is as high as you want to make it. More time = more isk. Skills need improvement but you can pick and choose what you want perfected.

Third:
People keep mentioning mining and pvp in the same posts... This has bothered me from the start.
It would be bad coaching to ask an aspiring PvP pilot to learn mining skills.
Just as it would be bad coaching to have them go 108 days without implants.
I can see why people would quit if this is what happened.

And Last: (for now)
EVE is a PAY to PLAY game! Comparing it to free games is unrealistic. It's like comparing a gun to an arrow, a 60 year old to a 20 year old, free poker to real no limit hold 'em, a walker to Golds Gym, pee wee football to the NFL, etc. etc.
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2013-03-17 23:27:54 UTC
Krax As wrote:

it was a natural stepping stone in an MMO " career "....

what the OP is proposing is a system where nobody has to work for anything, can reach everything within a matter of days. or are days too much waiting time, too ??


Starting a new game should be about trying it out, not about getting forced into a direction from day one. This might be Ok for the average "all I want to do is Peveepe"-player, but is not exactly appealing to players who do expect a little more. A game needs to catch it's players in the first days, unless you want the noob to leave.

EvE can't do this, because it has many, many, many options but you can't really try them out because you have to wait some time everytime you want to try something different. Yes, you can (as example) start building frigs a few hours after you decided you want to give it a try, but building a frig with day one skills is in no way trying out the industry-profession. In other games, you can have reasonable progess in a few hours of gaming - and while you can start to do different stuff after a few hours in Eve too, trying out multiple things will still take some time, and is barely scratching the whole profession(s).

In Addition, waiting for the progress given by time is in no way as appealing as earning the progress on yourself. ;)

However, I totally agree with you that the OP's suggestions are a huge load of crap, but there are things which could be improved.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#352 - 2013-03-18 09:51:06 UTC

Let's play a game: Who should win:

The links were already available to me from an internal contest we had as a corp.... The unlinked kills exist if I could be asked to hunt them down...

Rifter vs Wolf
Rifter vs Stabber
Rifter vs Drake
Rifter vs Raven

Taranis vs Wolf
Taranis vs Sabre
Taranis vs Rupture
Taranis vs Hurricane
Taranis vs Rapier
Taranis vs Vagabond

Helios vs Taranis
Helios vs Slicer
Helios vs Auto Wolf
Helios vs Arty Wolf
Helios vs Jaguar
Helios vs Harpy
Helios vs Thrasher
Helios vs Sabre

Vexor vs Cynabal
Vexor vs SFI
Vexor vs Raven
Vexor vs Maelstrom

You don't need max skillpoints, or several years of skills to fly a ship... that's a straight up lie...

Another Example: The Brave Newbies, Inc consists of mostly very new players that go out an PvP quite successfully. Many don't use t2 weapons or t2 drones, and they don't whine how skillpoints prevent them from winning... they go out and shoot stuff, despite their lack of skillpoints, and still have a lot of success.

In general, skillpoints give you a leg up on "close" matches... like in a Vexor vs a common FW SFI: skillpoints would generally determine the winner when it's not determined by OGBs. Most fights the winner is determined by your fitting choices, and the terms of the engagement. A Helios wins because it uses ewar to neutralize it's opponent... The rifter and taranis win because they use its small sig size & speed to negate incoming dps. The Vexor wins because its a massive brick with guns.

You can be competitive in industry easily, within a month...
You can be competitive in trading within a day...
You can be competitive at mining within a week or two...
You can be competitive at hauling within a month or less....
You can be competitive at PvP within a week... and you can be a competitive soloer within a month...

You don't NEED massive amounts of skillpoints to be competitive in this game.. Skillpoints open doors, true... but you don't need amazing skills... What you need is an understanding of game mechanics and ships, an understanding of your prey, and a willingness to go at it.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#353 - 2013-03-18 10:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
Wow anekdotal evidence again. And bad one at that.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Rifter vs Wolf


Your first link already is a pilot with 3k kills going up against someone with 23 kills. I'd say even the assumption that the losing pilot has more SP in relevant skills here just because he flies the T2 is a bold one to make. I didn't really feel like checking the other kills after that, sorry. Even if the other examples are better, they would still be anecdotal evidence.

Your example Brave Newbies Inc. have a loss quota of almost 90%. That may be motivating for SOME people...


We all conceded that someone with half a brain can win against an idiot who has an SP advantage. The fact that I can not with good conscience say will ALWAYS win should give you a moment of thought. It also bothers me, that people always seem to assume their opponent is an idiot.


And you're right, more SP give an advantage in close matches. You know there's another word for that? "Good fight".
People are always moaning there are less and less "good fights" to be had and it's often the same people that defend the very system that prevents those. Lack of a decent catch up mechanism.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#354 - 2013-03-18 11:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Wow anekdotal evidence again. And bad one at that.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Rifter vs Wolf


Your first link already is a pilot with 3k kills going up against someone with 23 kills. I'd say even the assumption that the losing pilot has more SP in relevant skills here just because he flies the T2 is a bold one to make. I didn't really feel like checking the other kills after that, sorry. Even if the other examples are better, they would still be anecdotal evidence.


Yes, I've been PvP'ing for a long time, and have lots of kills..... many pages back I Iinked one of my first kills from many years ago, before I had the skills to use t2 guns and stuff. It was Tristan vs a Raptor...

The point of my post was not that my opponent did or did not have more SP than I. The point is most of those kills happened because of my knowledge of game mechanics, and skillpionts were NOT a deciding factor.

The Wolf vs the Rifter.... was over 2 years ago, when the wolf had a double damage bonus and no tracking bonus. He was using 200mm autocannons which also have poor tracking. In comparison, my rifter had a tracking bonus, and I was using 150's which track decent. By orbiting really close, I negated a ton of his damage allowing me to win the fight...

The whole point of that list: Skillpoints were NOT some magical deciding factor. If you look at the ships, the winner was determined by tactics, not by ship class, and not by skillpionts.

If EvE was a simple game, where tactics didn't matter, then the ships on the right should have one every single engagement.

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

We all conceded that someone with half a brain can win against an idiot who has an SP advantage. The fact that I can not with good conscience say will ALWAYS win should give you a moment of thought. It also bothers me, that people always seem to assume their opponent is an idiot.

Do you think all those links above were me vs some idiot... or determined by some skillpoint advantage? They weren't... The outcome was determined by tactics... Sure, EvE tactics don't always result in a win, but so what! Sometimes people are fit unexpectedly, which throws a wrench in the plan and results in a loss. Look at the Helios Kills.... Every single opponent looked at the helios as a non-threat; just an easy gank... and when they get neutralized and decimated that's the wrench in the plan.

Most fights in EvE are determined by three things:
A.) Most importantly, your friends. --- Bringing friends to the fight is the most assured way to win...
B.) How you fit your ship. -- How you fit leaves you with strengths and weaknesses....
C.) How you choose to engage. -- Where you caught off guard, did you engage from range, from close, how are you mittigating damage, etc...

Skillpoints are much, much farther down on the list of importance!

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

And you're right, more SP give an advantage in close matches. You know there's another word for that? "Good fight".
People are always moaning there are less and less "good fights" to be had and it's often the same people that defend the very system that prevents those. Lack of a decent catch up mechanism.


Good Fights has many definitions:
To some, a good fight means a really close fight...
To me, a good fight is where both parties come to the fight thinking they're are going to win.
Other times, a good fight is when I can suicide myself into an opponent and still take a bunch of them down. (this is the same as above, I just have a broad definition of win, such that "surviving with my ship" is not necessary.)

And skillpoints have NOTHING to do with the lack of "good fights" in EvE. The risk-adverse playerbase that uses ECM and Logistics to ensure not a single ship is lost.... that's the reason for few "good fights".
Velicitia
XS Tech
#355 - 2013-03-18 12:15:08 UTC
Grombutz wrote:

Starting a new game should be about trying it out, not about getting forced into a direction from day one. This might be Ok for the average "all I want to do is Peveepe"-player, but is not exactly appealing to players who do expect a little more. A game needs to catch it's players in the first days, unless you want the noob to leave.

EvE can't do this, because it has many, many, many options but you can't really try them out because you have to wait some time everytime you want to try something different.



Well, lessee ...

WOW and wanting to try out a healer (or any other class)-- roll new toon and have at it. oh, but you can't go out with your L35 mates, because you're L1. go find newbs to run with.


EVE and wanting to try out a logi (or any other "class") -- set Remote Armor Repair Systems (or Shield Emission Systems) to train L1 ... should take about 20 minutes or so. Grab a T1 logi frig or cruiser, fly with your mates.


The trouble becomes "I can do anything and everything on this toon ... so, I wanna do everything!" and the broken thinking that it'll then take 2 years to get "good enough" at everything to do anything.


As for the talking about some PvP skills with mining, it's good advice -- a balanced approach will help for the inevitable war that an industrial corp will find themselves in.

Right now -- Brand New 0 SP test toon in Evemon with no implants or anything will take 10-11 days to fit a venture beyond "yep, I can sit in it":

Venture(venture)
Damage Control II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
[Empty Medium Slot]
[Empty Medium Slot]
Miner II
Miner II
[Empty High Slot]
[Empty Rig Slot]
[Empty Rig Slot]
[Empty Rig Slot]
Mining Drone I
Hobgoblin I


Skills in EVEMon:
Mining Frigate lv 1-4 -> 2d 2h
Mining 3 & 4 -> 1d
Shield Upgrades 1-4; Hull Upgrades 1-4, Drones 1-2, Mining Drones 1-4, and Scout Drone Operation 1-4 take another week.

Obviously, the new miner doesn't _have_ to get the skills for the tank modules or the drones ... but they will help down the road (in general, and in the barges). This fit also assumes that someone wanted to take everything to level 4 as part of their "trying it out". The fit could be taken down to Meta modules, and you'd be fitting it within a few hours at the most... though I haven't checked for the "absolute minimum skill levels needed" for the fit (e.g. "Shield Upgrades II, because you need the reduction in CPU usage").

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#356 - 2013-03-18 13:42:12 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Didn't we have all that before? You even expand the denial by coming up with implausible myths.

108 days without implants and that's only maximum ore gain, no fitting skills and no refining.

(Still irrelevant to 90% of newbs this thread is about, but shows just how off you are here.)

Slowly, but in principle yes. Maelstrom with skills in the 4s should be possible in a bit over 2 months.
Of course you'll have to fly the thing fitted like a loot pinata.

What? Are you planning to replace a scimitar or a machariel with your frigate?

Not everyone's cup of tea for the risk involved or the necessity to have some connections, but yes, i'll concede you can do that.

(Only irrelevant to about 60% newbs, too, so yay)


Well, what would the motivation be for people sticking to it, if they can 'reach end game' and do everything as well as a 7 year vet in 3 months of playing? the whole point of eve is that it IS different to other games, its not like WoW or similar MMORPGs where you spend a few weeks to reach the level cap, then can bash heads and do everything some guy who played 8 years can do.

The point I was making is that any new player can get involved in any of the different 'professions' or aspects of eve, of course they aren't going to do it as well as someone with all the secondary/support skills trained as well, but it doesn't mean they can't do it in the first place.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#357 - 2013-03-18 14:16:48 UTC
True Sight wrote:

Well, what would the motivation be for people sticking to it, if they can 'reach end game' and do everything as well as a 7 year vet in 3 months of playing?


What's the motivation for people for having a decided advantage over the 3 months old player just because they played longer?
Apart from the advantage experience with the game mechanics gives them already, which CAN be compensated somewhat by an intelligent player via adapting quickly.

The problem i have with convincing friends to try out EVE is that they are all pretty intelligent people who are usually in the top ranks of games after a short time. They are fine with their opponent having an edge through player experience, because they expect (probably rightly so) to catch up quickly. But when they compete they want to compete with the best and not with the bottom of the PvP barrel.

And they won't be able to compete with the best because with those guys, they will not have a tactical advantage. The maximum they can expect is a similar tactic ability. And under those circumstances their opponent will have a decisive advantage through any combination of broader ship selection, better kiting ability or better damage projection.

And it's a bit hard to sell that the only reason for having that advantage is longer subscription, not better player skills.
Krax As
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#358 - 2013-03-18 14:27:40 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Wow anekdotal evidence again. And bad one at that.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Rifter vs Wolf


Your first link already is a pilot with 3k kills going up against someone with 23 kills. I'd say even the assumption that the losing pilot has more SP in relevant skills here just because he flies the T2 is a bold one to make. I didn't really feel like checking the other kills after that, sorry. Even if the other examples are better, they would still be anecdotal evidence.

Your example Brave Newbies Inc. have a loss quota of almost 90%. That may be motivating for SOME people...





well i think getting ripped apart and having a blast while doing it beats having a 90% efficient killboard but having to take part in CTA "or get the hell out of the alliance" or some other bullshi every day.

gatecamping with the right people and the right spirit but failing miserably doing it, mining with several frigs and an industrial and having barely the yield of two barges is more enjoyable then clearing belts with hulks and orcas but doing it on your own.


someone said it best pretty early on in this thread: as this is a sandbox game, it cannot be "won". its more of what and how and mainly with whom you do stuff then how good, how "efficient" or successfull you do it.

and not even 100Mill SP will give you that feeling. it might make you think that you know it all, can do it all and therefore it all is more fun, but dont get too disappointed when the experience just doesnt change.. its only the ships that got bigger or the modules that got more expensive
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#359 - 2013-03-18 14:30:43 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
What's the motivation for people for having a decided advantage over the 3 months old player just because they played longer?
Apart from the advantage experience with the game mechanics gives them already, which CAN be compensated somewhat by an intelligent player via adapting quickly.


The same as.. pretty much everything in the world and how it works

- People who've been in jobs longer are generally more experienced and tend to get promotions over newer people
- most normal progression mmo's still notably reward those who have played longer, be it those with superior items, rare recipes, reputations with factions/races/whatever that give them additional benefits

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
The problem i have with convincing friends to try out EVE is that they are all pretty intelligent people who are usually in the top ranks of games after a short time. They are fine with their opponent having an edge through player experience, because they expect (probably rightly so) to catch up quickly. But when they compete they want to compete with the best and not with the bottom of the PvP barrel.


EVE isn't for everyone and if they changed how the game worked to get 'as many people as possible' to subscribe, eve would loose a great deal of its character and favour. Ultimately you can't please everyone and the arguement that 'some people don't like this so it should be changed', if applied to everything would basically ruin everything. I don't like like certain other mmo's for various reasons, it just means they aren't suited for me, rather than me stepping up and saying 'they should change their game so that I like it'

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
And they won't be able to compete with the best because with those guys, they will not have a tactical advantage. The maximum they can expect is a similar tactic ability. And under those circumstances their opponent will have a decisive advantage through any combination of broader ship selection, better kiting ability or better damage projection.

And it's a bit hard to sell that the only reason for having that advantage is longer subscription, not better player skills.


Even if the odd complaint of 'this skill system sucks' deserved attention and changes to the game, I'm yet to really see any honest suggestion that wouldn't entirely destroy the game. Think of how many of those 500k subscribers are bitter vets BECAUSE they know they have a 100m SP advantage over everyone else? their opinions and desire to continue to play eve are just as important as new people coming in.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#360 - 2013-03-18 14:50:46 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
... they want to compete with the best and not with the bottom of the PvP barrel.

And they won't be able to compete with the best because with those guys, they will not have a tactical advantage. The maximum they can expect is a similar tactic ability. And under those circumstances their opponent will have a decisive advantage through any combination of broader ship selection, better kiting ability or better damage projection.

And it's a bit hard to sell that the only reason for having that advantage is longer subscription, not better player skills.



1 - 3 months, and you can have every skill that applies to frigates at L4. You'r 80-90% as effective as anyone who has L5 skills across the board (at another 2 weeks-month or so of training time per skill).

As the ships get bigger, the training time per skill gets longer ... but the support skill time is effectively nil, so it's essentially the same time. There's no "medium guns tracking speed" skill -- it's just "Motion Prediction", and once you have it, you have it for everything.

Yeah, you can train into the "biggest and baddest" ships in a week or two (same dead newb toon from my venture example shows it taking nine days to get to the position of "sit my ass in a Rokh") ... but you're going to suck because you don't have the Capacitor, Shields, Armour, Hull, Fitting Skills, etc that someone else has. This same newb toon with all the recommended certificates only takes 80 days to finish the plan. This fits (more or less) with the progression of "1 month per ship class" since the progression is still "Frig -> Cruiser -> BS".


Now, let's say one of your friends has started a brand new character in WOW (or other MMO of their choice). Not getting any handouts from their other characters, friends, etc; how long would it take for them to get the necessary gear to fight in one of the "PVP Arenas" (or PVP effectively on one of the PVP shards) against someone who is at max level?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia