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Intergalactic Summit

 
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A Necessary Peace

Author
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#141 - 2013-03-09 14:25:35 UTC
Vihtor Heishi wrote:
Scherezad wrote:

Sir,

Statistics are only misleading if one does not know how to read statistics.

The eye's mistake is no fault of the pen.


Very true, but the fault can sometimes lie with the one using the pen.


Finding an unbiased human is an impossible task. Do not blame the river for undercutting the foundation of your home, blame the one who built it there.

If one finds statistics misleading, learn to read them.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#142 - 2013-03-10 05:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
I think all that can be said, has been said. We know who is for what, and what each stands for and against. If nothing else I think we have seen that there are those on both sides that seek a permanent and honorable peace.

At times the discussion has been contentious and I take my share of blame for that. We capsuleers hold no little power. But until our... until the, respective governments are willing to seek accommodation, all our labors will go wanting. We must therefore act from within our respective factions, to change the dynamic of confrontation.

For some of us that will be more difficult than for others. Facing the realities of ones own opinions is often difficult. We must learn to speak to and not at each other, without resentment or recrimination.

In the coming days and weeks I will approach some of you, in an effort to dispel suspicion and promote a mutual trust that I feel is necessary and lacking. So that we together my demonstrate that honest brokers exist and that our mutual suspicions may be overcame.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#143 - 2013-03-10 07:05:38 UTC
Vihtor Heishi wrote:


Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information.

The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor.


Rinai Vero wrote:
Your professors at the Academy must be so proud.


Vihtor Heishi wrote:
Top of my class. Does it show?

Do you actually have anything to contribute or are you just being a child?


Well, I did start this entire bloody thread. So there's that. I'll admit my patience is wearing pretty thin at this point. Reading all this determined warmongering in a topic dedicated to a very specific peace proposal has that effect. I don't think anyone could accuse me of believing myself famous, and yet believe I might be just as flummoxed as Andreus Ixiris when I see comments like yours. Its as if four (or five?) different cliches managed to manifest in ridiculous symmetry. I love that you've decided to take time from your studies to contribute, but you could at least do so in a manner that doesn't echo popular truisms that predate recorded history.

James Syagrius wrote:
I think all that can be said, has been said. We know who is for what, and what each stands for and against. If nothing else I think we have seen that there are those on both sides that seek a permanent and honorable peace.

At times the discussion has been contentious and I take my share of blame for that. We capsuleers hold no little power. But until our... until the, respective governments are willing to seek accommodation, all our labors will go wanting. We must therefore act from within our respective factions, to change the dynamic of confrontation.

For some of us that will be more difficult than for others. Facing the realities of ones own opinions is often difficult. We must learn to speak to and not at each other, without resentment or recrimination.

In the coming days and weeks I will approach some of you, in an effort to dispel suspicion and promote a mutual trust that I feel is necessary and lacking. So that we together my demonstrate that honest brokers exist and that our mutual suspicions may be overcame.


I admire that you've come to this conclusion, and I wish you progress in your endeavors.

Are there Caldari among those who have contributed to this discussion who will make a similar commitment?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#144 - 2013-03-10 08:14:01 UTC
I do not want to bequeath this war to my children and their children's children. If there is truly a way towards an honourable peace, then I'll support it - whichever side of the line it comes from.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#145 - 2013-03-10 08:52:32 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:

Are there Caldari among those who have contributed to this discussion who will make a similar commitment?


When it can be answered what peace with the Federation can offer the Caldari State, then perhaps such a proposal might be taken under consideration. Some might believe that the political locus of the current conflict centers upon Caldari Prime. I would disagree, Caldari Prime is merely a symbol. A symbol of the legacy of the Federation's inability to compromise, to seek accord with the Caldari State and to embark upon continued economic and military rivalry against the Caldari people.

War would have been impossible if the Federation had continued upon the path set by Foiritain in seeking accord with the State through respect and understanding in order to alleviate over two centuries of mistrust and suspicion propagated by the policies of previous Federal Administrations. However, it is clear that even men such as Foiritain are easily dispensed with by men such as Roden and Blaque who are intent on repeating the mistakes of the past and to carry on with the antiquated notion that the Caldari State is nothing more than rebel colonists requiring integration back into the Federation and not an independent, sovereign, interstellar nation worthy of respect as an equal to the Federation.

The tragedy here is that there was indeed a time when both Gallente and Caldari once called each other brothers and sisters - despite how much it might be denied. It was a relationship forged and premised upon mutual respect and understanding between ourselves and it was through it that we escaped Luminaire together and sought our destinies amongst the stars. It should also be remembered that the breakdown in that relationship occurred only when it became increasingly apparent that attempts were being made to force the Caldari people and its colonies into an unequal partnership that did not respect their autonomy or political and economic independence.

This is at the very core of disagreement between the State and Federation. Caldari citizens believe we are a free and independent people who have already purchased our liberty with our own blood, and if the Federation truly wished for peace with the State then it should have adjusted its foreign policy accordingly and not wait until the State called the continued bluffs and sabre-rattling by men such as Blaque or the Sociocrats in order to disabuse the Federation of any notions that we will gladly accept threats to the sovereign interests of the Caldari State.

If peace is truly sought by the citizens of the Federation, then make it to the interests of the State to do so, because feigning affectations and offering nothing in return will never suffice.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#146 - 2013-03-10 11:29:37 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
[quote=Rinai Vero]
War would have been impossible if the Federation had continued upon the path set by Foiritain in seeking accord with the State through respect and understanding in order to alleviate over two centuries of mistrust and suspicion propagated by the policies of previous Federal Administrations. However, it is clear that even men such as Foiritain are easily dispensed with by men such as Roden and Blaque who are intent on repeating the mistakes of the past and to carry on with the antiquated notion that the Caldari State is nothing more than rebel colonists requiring integration back into the Federation and not an independent, sovereign, interstellar nation worthy of respect as an equal to the Federation.


Foiritain was still in power when the State attacked Luminaire in YC 111.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#147 - 2013-03-11 01:46:01 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:

Are there Caldari among those who have contributed to this discussion who will make a similar commitment?


...

If peace is truly sought by the citizens of the Federation, then make it to the interests of the State to do so, because feigning affectations and offering nothing in return will never suffice.


If you don't understand why a peaceful settlement of the status of your own Homeworld is in the interest of the State by now, then I doubt I can say anything further that would convince you. I hope that as events unfold your outlook will change.

I have no illusion that we can even see the horizon of a full and equitable peace treaty between the Federation and the State from where we are today. All I ask is that despite our current hostility that we act out of mutual humanity to prevent destruction of Caldari Prime on a planetary scale. Even two Nations at war should be able to recognize the need for protecting civilians from atrocity.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2013-03-11 21:53:41 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

If the Federation truly wished for peace with the State then it should have adjusted its foreign policy accordingly and not wait until the State called the continued bluffs and sabre-rattling by men such as Blaque or the Sociocrats in order to disabuse the Federation of any notions that we will gladly accept threats to the sovereign interests of the Caldari State.

If peace is truly sought by the citizens of the Federation, then make it to the interests of the State to do so, because feigning affectations and offering nothing in return will never suffice.


So what you are suggesting is that the Federation agree to peace on Caldari terms? Essentially surrendering to the Caldari State? The Federation surrendering to the State is as unlikely an outcome of this "war" as the State allowing Caldari Prime to remain under Federation control.

You had the right idea at the beginning, but like many of us from both sides of the argument we get lost in our national pride.

Peace terms have to be mutual or unconditional in order for them to work. One side giving up more than the other will only lead to future conflict, many examples can be cited in this case.

We will stop our saber-rattling when you stop your gun toting, particularly in Luminaire.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#149 - 2013-03-13 18:00:10 UTC
Villore – In an interview, Black Eagles Director Mentas Blaque has spoken out about what he sees as a "devolution of Federation ideals" and a "dangerous trend toward risk and personal gain."

President Roden would be wise to sack Director Blaque.

While appreciating the need for covert operations to defend the Federation from her enemies, a government set against the people cannot long endure.
Adel Khamez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2013-03-14 20:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Adel Khamez
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I do not want to bequeath this war to my children and their children's children. If there is truly a way towards an honourable peace, then I'll support it - whichever side of the line it comes from.


Thank you for being a voice of sanity.

The Khanid, and the rest of Amarr have your back, regardless.

If God wills it, may peace be upon you.

Amarr Victor, Deus Vult!

Julianus Soter
Blades of Liberty
#151 - 2013-03-17 17:15:00 UTC
I fully endorse and support Combat Specialist Rinai Vero's proposal for the DMZ of Caldari Prime. The conflict here must end and lives must be saved if possible.

If Tibus Heth does not acknowledge or support this proposal, then we must remove the Provist forces from the surface, and attempt a negotiated settlement. Unfortunately, this seems to be the more likely option given the lack of Heth's interest in peace.

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#152 - 2013-03-17 17:50:29 UTC
Soter, the scenario you describe does not lead to a negotiated peace, it leads to war.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#153 - 2013-03-17 17:54:34 UTC
Julianus Soter wrote:
I fully endorse and support Combat Specialist Rinai Vero's proposal for the DMZ of Caldari Prime. The conflict here must end and lives must be saved if possible.

If Tibus Heth does not acknowledge or support this proposal, then we must remove the Provist forces from the surface, and attempt a negotiated settlement. Unfortunately, this seems to be the more likely option given the lack of Heth's interest in peace.


Look to your own goverment before making demands from ours. If you believe you can force peace through show of arms then your no better than the man you criticize. Caldari forces on Home does not prevent you from seeking a settlement, it simply deprives you of a bargaining chip. If you support peace, then please show us by recanting your call for more war.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#154 - 2013-03-17 19:09:46 UTC
Tuulinen-haan is right, if course. Even the most peace-minded Caldari liberal will explode with patriotic rage if the Federation were to take Home by force. Its recovery would almost certainly become the focus of all of the State's energies.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#155 - 2013-03-17 21:21:13 UTC
What is that new fashion consisting to call Caldari Prime "Home" these days ? It came out of nowhere the last few months.
Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#156 - 2013-03-17 21:53:42 UTC
Caldari Prime is Home. It is the birthplace of our race and the cradle of our civilisation.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#157 - 2013-03-17 22:20:10 UTC
Maybe it was about time to name things as they are, to put our sentiments towards this singular planet among many into the proper perspective.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Julianus Soter
Blades of Liberty
#158 - 2013-03-17 22:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Julianus Soter
One cannot negotiate with a hostage-taker. The Caldari seem to forget the most base and cruel form of warcrime has been perpetrated on Caldari Prime, keeping the citizens there trapped under the thumb of a massive military occupation, as a token to be traded.

We do not trade lives in the Federation, we are not slavers. We then must consider that in order to achieve the desired settlement, the negotiated truce, we must remove the hostage-takers and revert the situation back to square one. We refuse the false premise that negotiation must first begin by haggling over the lives of millions of our citizens.

A third party, CONCORD, could be instrumental in this as a peace keeping force and establishing the DMZ. That is why I support Rinai's proposal.

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#159 - 2013-03-17 22:28:20 UTC
Talking about hostages is a pretty bold move. Does one negotiate with mass murderers or land grabbers?
There's more than one way to bend this situation, after all.

If peace was on your mind you wouldn't beat the wardrum. Also, if you'd remove the so called threat there would be no reason to negotiate. I am severely puzzled if you are truly believing that the federation would offer the planet after the military retreats from its orbit or if you're just playing stupid.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#160 - 2013-03-17 22:55:49 UTC
Once again, I'll point out who proposed peace the first time around.

Again, negotiation for Caldari Prime must take place with the governments and current residents of Caldari Prime, not the Federation. The Federation is a representative body, not a dictating one.