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An appeal to our shared humanity as regards the cloned soldiers

Author
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-03-17 05:44:14 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Us capsuleers have retained our humanity through our transformation.


Foolish and naive child of ignorance and fear-haunted denial. You only wish to be human.


Your words actually made me a tad bit disgruntled. While I expressed a negative reaction, it is still a human one.

Perhaps, what I define as "Human" is different than your definition. I for one, felt no more or less human once I became a capsuleer. Aside from not fearing death while piloting my ship, I am the same man as I was before my modifications.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Kyraella Myshtana
Eternal Fortress
#22 - 2013-03-17 13:18:55 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Us capsuleers have retained our humanity through our transformation. These clones on the other hand, are much different. They are only bred to fight, kill, and die and do that over and over again. They will never know what it's like to be at peace. They will never find anyone they can call a friend, or a lover. The only joy they will feel is triumph over an enemy, their only suffering will be defeat.

They are born, they are delivered to the battlefield, they fight, they die, and then they are reborn. It is an endless cycle that they will never escape from. Do they even have faces? Are they even human? You couldn't tell from the cold emotionless armor they wear. To me, they are no different than drones.


As one whose humanity has been frequently called into question after my "transformation", I find your own lack of human empathy telling. Perhaps the other Idamas had the inkling of a valid point after all. Certainly the Sisters could offer you a list of hundreds of thousands of incidents in which capsuleers murdered countless incidents for money- or simply out of boredom.

These soldiers were born human, they had a childhood, some even married and had children themselves before enlisting as volunteers in their faction's experimental programs. Some were cripples, wounded warriors offered a second chance at a life that they loved and had lost. I am told that the Minmatar "Balac" was such a soldier, though I have never spoken with him to confirm.

Their suffering is constant, dear reader. Even those whose gender identity was not taken from them often find themselves staring at stranger's face in the mirror. I am told that many wear their armor almost incessantly to avoid looking at their cloned bodies. One of my descendants has been pushing for them to be offered cosmetic clones in their home stations so that they can enjoy a modicum of normal social interaction. Unfortunately, the attitude that you express here is part of the reason why hers is an uphill battle.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:
These automatons have foresaken their humanity. Observe how mechanically efficient they are, observe their indifference to whoever they slaughter be it soldier or civilian. No human that I have ever met could operate in such a way.

Of course, I do not call for their genocide. Without any humanity, these clones have demonstrated their ability to be perfect soldiers and could be useful. I also applaud the OPs efforts for trying to rehabilitate these damned and corrupted men and women. However until they are made human again, I will look at them as I look at the Hammerheads in my drone bay. Tools, that I can use for whatever purpose I desire.


Again, the same has been said of us, gentle reader, since the days of the Gallente-Caldari War. Once cloning became the norm for pod pilots, this moral quandary has bedeviled philosophers and politicians incessantly. In the eyes of many, we are no more human than the drones in your bay.
Kyraella Myshtana
Eternal Fortress
#23 - 2013-03-17 13:28:36 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
I can't help but wonder if considering this "madness" some sort of disease is the right approach. What would you do for these first generation soldiers? Medicate them? Provide psychiatric help? Excise the Sleeper based components and try to reverse any biological changes that came about from their use and application?

What few reports I've seen and heard about these bouts of madness are...intriguing and deeply troubling on a level I'm not sure some would realize. I do not believe these soldiers to be sick or diseased in a conventional sense. No, I believe they are acting on impulses rooted in a perspective far removed from their own.

Some of us might recall the rumors and sightings of a pilot identifying themselves as "Awakened Infomorph" purported to be a Sleeper infomorph that had taken control of a capsuleer's body. The evidence regarding these first generation soldiers suggests that there is at least the possibility that this madness is actually the damaged, fragmented consciousness of a Sleeper. If that possibility is true, then it would seem the this madness and violence among the first generation soldiers is...justified.


Honestly, I cannot say at this point. I know that there were very few amongst the first batch of failed capsuleers that we could assist with their mindlock or wetgraving. However, the research conducted at the time enabled us to provide more effective treatment today. Certainly, when a potential pod pilot suffers a catastrophic failure today it is still traumatic and career-ending, but some are able to return to some semblance of a normal life.

Your suggestion of a fragmented consciousness is consistent with my understanding as well. Separating the two will take a great deal of time and intensive research. Given that these first generation clones can be kept alive indefinitely, we may be able to have the time necessary.

We know that the Sleeper technology still sends data- data that we can analyze if we are serious about helping these pained souls. Imagine the possibilities inherent in separating the two consciousnesses. Not only would our brave volunteers be returned to us, but we might actually have a chance to speak with a Sleeper!
Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-03-17 16:54:22 UTC
It's become obvious, now, that while the "beloved Federation" of the Gallente posting here is hunting the clones down, the infinite mercy of the Empress has turned to providing them with shelter.
Kyraella Myshtana
Eternal Fortress
#25 - 2013-03-17 17:33:06 UTC
Knoot Enderas wrote:
It's become obvious, now, that while the "beloved Federation" of the Gallente posting here is hunting the clones down, the infinite mercy of the Empress has turned to providing them with shelter.


It appears that Mssrs. Roden and Blaque are too busy worrying about the Talon booster incident to give this issue the attention it deserves.

I can only hope that in the coming days they will give my offer serious consideration.
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-03-17 18:38:01 UTC
It would seem to me that the Sleepers are speaking. They are speaking the same language countless capsuleers in Anoikis speak. Wanton destruction. It would seem to me that if one wished to help these soldiers, if they are indeed being co-opted by a Sleeper consciousness, the first step would be to stop "salvaging" materials and components from Sleeper installations.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-03-17 21:56:14 UTC
Kyraella Myshtana wrote:

As one whose humanity has been frequently called into question after my "transformation", I find your own lack of human empathy telling. Perhaps the other Idamas had the inkling of a valid point after all. Certainly the Sisters could offer you a list of hundreds of thousands of incidents in which capsuleers murdered countless incidents for money- or simply out of boredom.


You are indeed correct. However, capsuleers have demonstrated that we are a capable force for good in this little galaxy of ours. These mercenaries have failed to demonstrate such a thing. Capsuleers can fulfill a variety of roles with absolutely nothing to do with harming others, quite the opposite in many cases. These mercs are only focused on death and destruction.

Quote:

These soldiers were born human, they had a childhood, some even married and had children themselves before enlisting as volunteers in their faction's experimental programs. Some were cripples, wounded warriors offered a second chance at a life that they loved and had lost. I am told that the Minmatar "Balac" was such a soldier, though I have never spoken with him to confirm.


The life one lived in the past has no correlation to how they currently live their lives. I have often encountered people who use to be kind and generous, just good fellows in general, who have degenerated to horrible monstrosities. Even more so, I've encountered the reverse. People who have wandered from the light yet found their way back.

What matters to me in a person is who they are now. The rest is redundant in my eyes.

Quote:

Their suffering is constant, dear reader. Even those whose gender identity was not taken from them often find themselves staring at stranger's face in the mirror. I am told that many wear their armor almost incessantly to avoid looking at their cloned bodies. One of my descendants has been pushing for them to be offered cosmetic clones in their home stations so that they can enjoy a modicum of normal social interaction. Unfortunately, the attitude that you express here is part of the reason why hers is an uphill battle.


They were fully aware of the consequences of becoming who they are now.


Quote:

Again, the same has been said of us, gentle reader, since the days of the Gallente-Caldari War. Once cloning became the norm for pod pilots, this moral quandary has bedeviled philosophers and politicians incessantly. In the eyes of many, we are no more human than the drones in your bay.


However, us capsuleers have proven that we have retained our human elements, both the good and the bad. The more I observe these mercenaries, the less human they appear.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Kyraella Myshtana
Eternal Fortress
#28 - 2013-03-17 22:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyraella Myshtana
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

However, us capsuleers have proven that we have retained our human elements, both the good and the bad. The more I observe these mercenaries, the less human they appear.


All the more reason for us to walk the difficult high road, morally speaking. Just as capsuleers were created for war, cloned infantry were made to fight wars that had become unmanageably expensive in human life.

As you point out, as pod pilots began to exist outside of formal military organizations we saw their ability to contribute to fields such as industry, scientific research, and trade. The cloned troopers have never had such an opportunity.

I for one, simply ruminating here in my study, can think of numerous applications to which moment-of-death cloning could be useful. When I was searching for a way to miniaturize neural burning scanners, I thought that such technology could be useful to truck drivers and other industrial equipment operators- men (usually) who suffer disproportionate rates of serious work-related injury and death.

Such technology could easily be applied to other professions as well- all sorts of emergency services, for instance. Researchers in dangerous fields such as high-energy physics could better push the bounds of their experiments without fear of maiming or death. In medicine, a great many lives could be saved through the use of this technology, both in terms of accidental fatalities and serious illness.

Yet, none of this is possible if we stigmatize those who volunteered in the pioneering of this technology. We must offer them a safe haven, here in the Federation, where we can help them know peace once more and demonstrate the positive, peaceful possibilities that they offer us.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#29 - 2013-03-18 00:58:54 UTC
Calling them inhuman automatons on the sole basis that they never get out of their suits for a chat and some drinks seems a bit a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I think, since there are many Capsuleers who do the same - and have kill counts to the tune of likely a thousand times greater.

...Actually, since they mainly only fight eachother, to the best of my understanding, one could quite easily argue that quite a few of them are completely innocent.

There are many valid ways to define humanity, but I would not say that an individuals ability to socialize and have hobbies is one of them.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-03-18 02:06:44 UTC
Kyraella Myshtana wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

However, us capsuleers have proven that we have retained our human elements, both the good and the bad. The more I observe these mercenaries, the less human they appear.


All the more reason for us to walk the difficult high road, morally speaking. Just as capsuleers were created for war, cloned infantry were made to fight wars that had become unmanageably expensive in human life.

As you point out, as pod pilots began to exist outside of formal military organizations we saw their ability to contribute to fields such as industry, scientific research, and trade. The cloned troopers have never had such an opportunity.

I for one, simply ruminating here in my study, can think of numerous applications to which moment-of-death cloning could be useful. When I was searching for a way to miniaturize neural burning scanners, I thought that such technology could be useful to truck drivers and other industrial equipment operators- men (usually) who suffer disproportionate rates of serious work-related injury and death.

Such technology could easily be applied to other professions as well- all sorts of emergency services, for instance. Researchers in dangerous fields such as high-energy physics could better push the bounds of their experiments without fear of maiming or death. In medicine, a great many lives could be saved through the use of this technology, both in terms of accidental fatalities and serious illness.

Yet, none of this is possible if we stigmatize those who volunteered in the pioneering of this technology. We must offer them a safe haven, here in the Federation, where we can help them know peace once more and demonstrate the positive, peaceful possibilities that they offer us.


I can see your point, though do to my admittedly limited understanding on the subject I can't say much more for it or against it. My original point still stands. If you can find a way to rehabilitate these...people...I suppose that there is unlimited potential for what good can be done in this galaxy of ours. However, until the forsaken are returned to the warm embrace of true humanity, I will remain rather weary of them.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#31 - 2013-03-18 02:37:00 UTC
Knoot Enderas wrote:
It's become obvious, now, that while the "beloved Federation" of the Gallente posting here is hunting the clones down, the infinite mercy of the Empress has turned to providing them with shelter.


Yes. Her Imperial Majesty understands, as have all of our great emperors before her, that providing education and salvation is always superior to extermination.

It is a shame that the other empires fall to the temptation of simply destroying what they don't like.
Kyraella Myshtana
Eternal Fortress
#32 - 2013-03-18 04:10:45 UTC
As I was retracing my steps in search of my research on miniaturized neural scanners, I happened upon this old exchange:

http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1248017&page=1#1

I find it relevant in light of the recent assertions of inhuman monstrosity to point out how many capsuleers are viewed by the mortals who die by their whim.
Arista Shahni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-03-23 00:23:58 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Knoot Enderas wrote:
It's become obvious, now, that while the "beloved Federation" of the Gallente posting here is hunting the clones down, the infinite mercy of the Empress has turned to providing them with shelter.


Yes. Her Imperial Majesty understands, as have all of our great emperors before her, that providing education and salvation is always superior to extermination.

It is a shame that the other empires fall to the temptation of simply destroying what they don't like.


This announcement from the Empress is truly a sign of her wisdom and grace, for if She can accept the plight of these cloned invidivuals and state so openly that they can achieve the grace of God, then this speaks volumes.

It was not long ago that going through the process of cloning was to risk one's immortal soul by our faith - a sacrifice we make gladly in defense of our people and to further spread the truths of our faith, and in some places this belief is still strongly held.

I did not want to turn this into a platform for preaching, but need to, to make the very simple point which is this:

If the Amarr Empire feels these soldiers retain so much of their humanity to have a chance of salvation and will publicly state as much-- considering how narrowly cloning is viewed within the structure of our faith, it really doesn't speak well for anyone else considering them 'drones', 'tools', or 'inhuman'.



"I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you - so the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.  And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree, so the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all."

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-03-23 00:32:19 UTC
These heroes need to be given propper treatment and care and be reintroduced as capable and stable members of Gallente society.

It will take time and investment of course and we may not always be successful but the Federation shouldn't abandon its own.

It's worth a try.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

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