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Trebor Daehdoow for CSM8 - The Proven Performer - http://bit.ly/vote-trebor

First post
Author
Wescro2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#321 - 2013-03-16 14:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Wescro2
Trebor, I like your answer in #305. It clarified a lot of your positions and gives us an anchor to hold you to when you partake in devils advocacy. Mind you I still disagree with most of it, but I feel we made some progress there.

Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
And in defense of the Black Ops style, we go after people who have chosen to put themselves at risk (in lowsec and nullsec), are flying spaceships in space with neutrals and hostiles in local, and (usually) who have taken the bait that we dangle before them.

They engage at n:1 odds in their favor, we just flip the numerator and denominator.


Ah the classic, "they knew what they were in for, so it's ok." I'm curious how you restrict this to low and null. Surely, there is no rampant ignorance about high sec game mechanics that prevents a similar extension of this line of "they knew what they were in for" to high sec residents who get war decced.

Quote:
Ah, but this is a flawed analogy. The real question is: do you prefer to go to a Steak House with a salad bar, or one without? More specifically, what change to your menu will generate the biggest increase in your Yelp rating?


That analogy fails because people who eat steak don't do so at the expense of those who eat the salad, while in EVE, the issue is a lot more contentious because one player's buff is often another player's nerf. If my restaurant continues to serve the steak I like, they can do whatever they want with their salad menu as far as I am concerned. But if the salad menu suddenly replaces my steak or diminishes its quality, then we have problems.

Let me pose a hypothetical to you Trebor, would you support in game ads to drive revenue for CCP to possibly hire more devs to fix other parts of the game? Would you support "gold ammo," ie, superior caliber equipment bought with real money, to help drive revenues with the same aim? If not, what is the "limiting principle"?

I feel the CSM should be more concerned about players interests, than about CCP's revenues. In my opinion the CSMs should represent the players to CCP, and not act as mediators for both parties. Of course, each candidate is free to craft their own opinion about the fundamental nature of the CSMs job of how they will utilize their trip to Iceland, and let the player base democratically decide what they want their CSM to do.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#322 - 2013-03-16 14:50:32 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
I believe I have made my position clear several times in this thread, but if it will help move the trolling on to another aspect of why I'm horrible (and thus increase the entertainment value for the audience), perhaps this summary of my previous statements will help:


Apparently it didn't. Oops

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Templis CALSF
#323 - 2013-03-16 16:51:06 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
cautiously expand the game in ways that will attract new types of players, so that the game remains healthy.

I think Trebor definitly belives in cautious expansion, I just dont think he appreciates how much some of the questions he's asking invoke the goal of replacing steaks with vegan alternatives rather than adding a side salad to the menu.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2013-03-16 17:01:14 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
The best way to increase revenues is to focus on making a good game through solid releases that enhance EVE"s core gameplay elements or add new ones in keeping with the flavor of the game. Money will, and has, followed.

100% agree.

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Chasing profits by prioritizing features that are not in line with the above is, and has been (PI, Incarna), a siren's call.

Where we differ is on where the borders are. I am a bit more aggressive than you are about what areas of the design space EVE can safely expand into. And as a side note, PI's big problem is that it wasn't properly iterated on. The underlying mechanic is an excellent metaphor for industrial processes; the problem is that you have to hard-wire all of the nodes. I would like to see Industry move towards a metaphor where you basically say "Make me a Titan" and the system figures out what it can do at any point in time to approach that goal given the resources (materials, blueprints, processing units).

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Then again, this one of those things Robert and I frequently disagree on.

I love you too, Greg. And don't worry, your vegan tendencies will remain our little secret.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Templis CALSF
#325 - 2013-03-16 19:25:16 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Then again, this one of those things Robert and I frequently disagree on.

I love you too, Greg. And don't worry, your vegan tendencies will remain our little secret.

no one must know of my research skills!

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2013-03-16 23:50:38 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Right, and what I'm saying is that even trying to argue for something from a financial standpoint, especially when one includes the allotment of work resources (as Trebor did), is seriously overstepping your bounds as a customer, as you lack the information and the know-how to even begin to comment on such things.

Historically, if you want to get CCP to do something, the most effective way to do it is to make a business argument. You may not have all the information, but as a CSM you have more information than the general community, and one thing I have consistently pushed for in 3 years on the CSM is getting CCP to give CSM even more access, so that we can make more informed arguments. I don't think there is a single summit or meeting where I haven't pushed for that (for example, go read the Summer 2012 minutes, where I press Unifex on this issue).

In other words, "If you don't ask, you don't get".

Snow Axe wrote:
At best you'll be annoying and at worst you'll actually insult those who are actually responsible for making such decisions.

The fact that CSM has consistently gotten more access to more information at earlier and earlier stages, and better and better access to the decision-makers, is clear evidence that your proposition is incorrect.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#327 - 2013-03-17 05:32:16 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


Malcanis wrote:
Part of the CSMs job is to advise CCP which proposals are rib eyes and which are mouldy soybeans.

Here we agree. But that is entry-level CSMing. You also have to play the long game.


Good point, if only CCP were trying to sell Steak or vegetables to the public in return for lots of money.

Sadly they seem to want to sell icelandic food to the public, which includes a pretty much horror cuisine. Sounds pretty much like a long game.

Hopefully CCP just learns to put ketchup and salt on everything, and watch the money roll in.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#328 - 2013-03-17 05:40:12 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:

Historically, if you want to get CCP to do something, the most effective way to do it is to make a business argument.


One ring to bind them and in the darkness rule them.

In one way, at least if they sell games to americans (topically) and as always the europeans, going business first would be a hard thing to do.

Sure people say business works here in the states, but it never goes the way you wanted it to, and it doesn't seem to end up where you thought it would.

I hate being cheesy, but I am from Kansas, and there ain't no yellow brick road. (Of course wizard of Oz was based on the gold standard, which is a short clear route to economic freedom and prosperity.) Thats why the wizard sucked in the movie, had it too easy.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#329 - 2013-03-17 05:48:14 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Some great discussions overnight, I'll post about them soon. In the meantime, some catchup stuff.

rodyas wrote:
Also how do we not know if Two Step used mind waves...

Two step's Orbital Mind-Control Lasers are no match for my Tinfoil Hat (I use real tinfoil, cheap aluminum foil doesn't work).

rodyas wrote:
Is that why you Blops gank? So players don't see the whole 4 inches coming to kill them, and instead die laughing before the gank?

It isn't the size of the ship, it's how the captain sails her. As an EVE player, you should know this.

And in defense of the Black Ops style, we go after people who have chosen to put themselves at risk (in lowsec and nullsec), are flying spaceships in space with neutrals and hostiles in local, and (usually) who have taken the bait that we dangle before them.

They engage at n:1 odds in their favor, we just flip the numerator and denominator.


I suppose its good you keep the ganks fair, otherwise your corp would just be forcing CCP to buff hi sec again, and the trolling would never end.

Its not Trebor making hi sec safer, its his corp doing it.

I do try to sail my ship the captain way, but the sea gods see it and hate it.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#330 - 2013-03-17 11:36:11 UTC
Back in the Trebor fold.

Ignoring all meta and generic bullshit of the kids that think they know.

Game design is a about vision and reality.

Treb has shown that he can deal with that.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

High Sec Dan
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#331 - 2013-03-17 12:07:28 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Back in the Trebor fold.

Ignoring all meta and generic bullshit of the kids that think they know.

Game design is a about vision and reality.

Treb has shown that he can deal with that.


Couldn't agree more. Game design is all about Trebor's vision and not what all the players want.
Tcar
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#332 - 2013-03-17 14:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tcar
High Sec Dan wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Game design is all about Trebor's vision and not what all the players want.


The evidence would seem to point the other way, based off crowd sourcing, general consensus on expansions, subscription numbers, PCU, etc.

Because obviously, no one has liked the last two expansions. . .
Tiberius StarGazer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#333 - 2013-03-17 14:55:28 UTC
You will have my vote, clearly you are one of the few candidates that

a) Have the experience in game design
b) Have provided a continued and stable voice in the CSM for a number of years now.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2013-03-18 10:57:51 UTC
Wescro2 wrote:
That analogy fails because people who eat steak don't do so at the expense of those who eat the salad, while in EVE, the issue is a lot more contentious because one player's buff is often another player's nerf.

I think you miss my core point -- which is that it is much more productive to increase the size of the pie than to squabble about how to divide it. Your point is tangential to this -- the fact that any given game change will have positive and negative effects for various player populations. That is an issue that will always be present no matter what level of development resources are available, and one of the jobs of CSM is to provide advice to CCP that hopefully maximizes the positive and minimizes the negative.

Wescro2 wrote:
Let me pose a hypothetical to you Trebor, would you support in game ads to drive revenue for CCP to possibly hire more devs to fix other parts of the game? Would you support "gold ammo," ie, superior caliber equipment bought with real money, to help drive revenues with the same aim? If not, what is the "limiting principle"?

Anyone who remembers CSM 6 will know I am on record about being against gold ammo. The problem with gold ammo, game ads, and the like is that they are incompatible with a subscription model.

As for the limiting principle, a decent rule of thumb would be that I would tend to be against changes designed to extract more money per player (other than because they want to run more accounts), and tend to be in favor of changes designed to increase the number of players (but not at the expense of the current players).

So: gold ammo, ads, stuff designed to force players to buy PLEXes/AURUM -- bad.

But: new game areas, new professions, better newbie support, better UI -- good.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#335 - 2013-03-18 15:26:25 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


So: gold ammo, ads, stuff designed to force players to buy PLEXes/AURUM -- bad.

Now I'm actually curious about your opinion - what about cosmetic microtransaction type of stuff? Buy ship skins/decals/etc with aurum (which could then be sold for isk on the markets as well). Essentially the same thing as the clothes already in the NEx store, but for your ships.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Prince Kobol
#336 - 2013-03-18 15:53:48 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


So: gold ammo, ads, stuff designed to force players to buy PLEXes/AURUM -- bad.

Now I'm actually curious about your opinion - what about cosmetic microtransaction type of stuff? Buy ship skins/decals/etc with aurum (which could then be sold for isk on the markets as well). Essentially the same thing as the clothes already in the NEx store, but for your ships.


I actually have no issue with this.

For me they can sell what ever the hell they want for aurum so long as it has no effect in game and is purely cosmetic.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2013-03-18 17:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Trebor Daehdoow
mynnna wrote:
Now I'm actually curious about your opinion - what about cosmetic microtransaction type of stuff? Buy ship skins/decals/etc with aurum (which could then be sold for isk on the markets as well). Essentially the same thing as the clothes already in the NEx store, but for your ships.

I have no problems with "non-game affecting" stuff like this in general (and these things have been thrashed out in CSM summits several times).

Where it gets a bit iffy is if CCP started cannibalizing regular developer resources into producing "fancy hat" items -- and that is a very fuzzy judgment call.

Putting on my fancy businessman's hat, what I would hope CCP would do is some cautious and cheap experiments to determine if there's sufficient demand to warrant investing resources in the project, and if so, expand the relevant departments (or outsource) so they can meet the demand without impairing their ability to improve the game.

Or in other words, the people who want to pimp their rides shouldn't subsidize the people who are happy with the factory paint job.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#338 - 2013-03-18 17:51:12 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Now I'm actually curious about your opinion - what about cosmetic microtransaction type of stuff? Buy ship skins/decals/etc with aurum (which could then be sold for isk on the markets as well). Essentially the same thing as the clothes already in the NEx store, but for your ships.

I have no problems with "non-game affecting" stuff like this in general (and these things have been thrashed out in CSM summits several times).

Where it gets a bit iffy is if CCP started cannibalizing regular developer resources into producing "fancy hat" items -- and that is a very fuzzy judgment call.

Putting on my fancy businessman's hat, what I would hope CCP would do is some cautious and cheap experiments to determine if there's sufficient demand to warrant investing resources in the project, and if so, expand the relevant departments (or outsource) so they can meet the demand without impairing their ability to improve the game.

Or in other words, the people who want to pimp their rides shouldn't subsidize the people who are happy with the factory paint job.


Gotta have something to keep the art team busy when they're not making new ships or talking about how much they hate the idea of rebuilding the naglfar's model, right? Sounds like a perfect task. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2013-03-19 01:32:51 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Gotta have something to keep the art team busy when they're not making new ships or talking about how much they hate the idea of rebuilding the naglfar's model, right? Sounds like a perfect task. Blink

For some reason, they didn't appreciate our suggestion to put a big-ass hinge on the damn thing so it would fold up.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2013-03-19 20:29:03 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:
You will have my vote, clearly you are one of the few candidates that

a) Have the experience in game design
b) Have provided a continued and stable voice in the CSM for a number of years now.

Appreciated. Also appreciate the opportunity for a cheap and shameless bump. Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery