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Need advice on a fast semi gank-proof ship for hauling approx 4000m3 around jita.
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Smeagol Muffdiver
Snusk Inc.
#1 - 2013-03-17 01:47:11 UTC
Hi,
I need to make a few runs soon out and in of Jita with with 4000m3 goods worth around 200mil.
Since I don't need to go far I can split it into smaller pieces.

Now what kind of ship would I go for? is there some kind of risk/reward ratio gankers use?
I mean to gank a very sturdy ship the ganker also needs a more expensive throw away ship to blow up the vicim before
the CONCORD kills him.

Option A)
use the strongest possible ship I can fly and take everything in one go. This probably makes me a target for a ganking group.

Option B)
I take a smaller ship but still somewhat sturdy ship (so that the solo cheap ganker can't kill me) and take lets say 50mil per run
so that the gank-group in more powerful ships don't see me as a viable target.

What would be good ship for this in the T1 (max cruiser) range? I can fly a Badger II. Should I make a tank version of it?
At what cargo value do gankers start licking their lips?

I plan using a safespot warp out bookmark and then continue from there. What about when I approach the station with warp to 0 and spam dock.. is that somewhat safe?

Thanks for any advice. Using a contracting corp for the transport is not an option.

kind regards
Muff
Haulie Berry
#2 - 2013-03-17 01:51:48 UTC
Smeagol Muffdiver wrote:


Thanks for any advice. Using a contracting corp for the transport is not an option.

kind regards
Muff



Are you sure? Hauling, like mining, is peasant work. I try to have someone else do it whenever possible.
Smeagol Muffdiver
Snusk Inc.
#3 - 2013-03-17 01:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Smeagol Muffdiver
true. but in this case drop off/pickup is at a customs office. thats why I need to do it in person. anyway appreciate some good advice on a suitable ship.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-03-17 02:09:14 UTC
Just get a t2 transport ship like the crane. Its unscannable, you can tank it decently and still have a MWD on it. Its cloak means you only have a chance to die undocking (fit inertia stabs in low slots to align in 2 seconds.) or if you mess up and sit uncloaked on a gate or something.

Or, just use a big old freighter... anything under 1b cargo is generally safe. I realize that this is overkill for your 4k m/3 cargo but it would be very rare to get ganked for 200m in a freighter.

Or, courier it (collateral = 100% security) to w/e system. Outside of tradehubs and shipping lanes, suicide ganks are pretty rare.
Smeagol Muffdiver
Snusk Inc.
#5 - 2013-03-17 02:15:25 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
Just get a t2 transport ship like the crane. Its unscannable, you can tank it decently and still have a MWD on it. Its cloak means you only have a chance to die undocking (fit inertia stabs in low slots to align in 2 seconds.) or if you mess up and sit uncloaked on a gate or something.

Or, just use a big old freighter... anything under 1b cargo is generally safe. I realize that this is overkill for your 4k m/3 cargo but it would be very rare to get ganked for 200m in a freighter.

Or, courier it (collateral = 100% security) to w/e system. Outside of tradehubs and shipping lanes, suicide ganks are pretty rare.


it should be T1, a freighter is out of reach too and I also mentioned contracting is no option.

I found this in a forum:
"This ships tank is over 10k which staves Single Tornado's and Small Destroyers which make up most Gank Groups. Heavier Coordinated Ganks will break it no problem.

[Badger Mark II, More Tank]
Damage Control II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II

Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I"

Guess I will try this.
Termy Rockling
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-03-17 02:19:21 UTC
Upper level T1 Industrial filled with shields and reinforced bulkheads and damagecontrol. Also 200M is pennies, most wont bother such with tornados.

The Badger2 looks ok
Smeagol Muffdiver
Snusk Inc.
#7 - 2013-03-17 02:20:39 UTC
Termy Rockling wrote:
Upper level T1 Industrial filled with shields and reinforced bulkheads and damagecontrol. Also 200M is pennies, most wont bother such with tornados.

The Badger2 looks ok


thanks.
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#8 - 2013-03-17 11:08:17 UTC
1) I think it's fairly rare if not very rare for T3 Battlecruisers to be used to suicide gank T1 industrials, blockade runners, & mining vessels UNLESS there is a severe grudge involved.
2) You don't really want to be transporting more than 30 million ISK worth of goods in a T1 industrial. It attracts too much attention.
3) To my view the only real use for T1 industrials is to empty PI from customs offices and to do level four Distribution missions. I generally won't use T1 industrial outside of those activities.
4) As another reply said your best option is to use a Prowler/blockade runner with cloak & inertia stabilizers.
5) The primary and usual vessel to gank is the catalyst. In most cases only one will be used.
6) Your suggestion that a 10,000 EHP tank will be enough to survive a gank from a Catalyst is incorrect. Your ship will be turned into scrap at that level. I don't know the exact figure to survive a gank but it is about 18,000 EHP.

Hope that is of use to you. Smile
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-03-17 14:08:19 UTC
iirc blockade-runners are immune to cargo scanners so that´would be prolly the easiest and fastest way. You can also double (courier)contract your goods, wich will hide your cargo aswell. cargo scanners will only show a plastic wrap, but whats in it.

shar'ra phone home
Termy Rockling
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-03-17 18:29:03 UTC
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
iirc blockade-runners are immune to cargo scanners so that´would be prolly the easiest and fastest way. You can also double (courier)contract your goods, wich will hide your cargo aswell. cargo scanners will only show a plastic wrap, but whats in it.


Problem with BRunners and PWraps is that ppl tend to assume you have expensive cargo when its hidden :)
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-03-18 14:30:20 UTC
Termy Rockling wrote:

Problem with BRunners and PWraps is that ppl tend to assume you have expensive cargo when its hidden :)

you might be right with the wraps, I give you that, but not with the B-runners because in this case hidden means that it shows it as empty, so no differenr result as a actuall empty Brunner would show.

shar'ra phone home
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#12 - 2013-03-18 15:55:36 UTC
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
Termy Rockling wrote:

Problem with BRunners and PWraps is that ppl tend to assume you have expensive cargo when its hidden :)

you might be right with the wraps, I give you that, but not with the B-runners because in this case hidden means that it shows it as empty, so no differenr result as a actuall empty Brunner would show.

Issue with that is blockade runners are generally easy to kill, and being unscanable makes them a lottery target, never know what it will drop. Many gankers enjoy this risk. The big difference here between the unscanable blockade runner and the previous unscanable ORCA corp hanger is the ORCA's corp hanger did not drop loot, so the was no chance of an unknown high value loot drop. The blockadee runner while unscanable does drop loot from that unscanable cargo space.

To the OP, if you are stuck on t1 ships you basically have two options. A small fast ship not normally used for cargo, some cruisers can have a pretty decent cargo hold if fit with cargo rigs and expanders. I don't think you will be able to reach 4000m3 but 2000m3 should not be a problem. You will still have a fast ship with fast algin times that will be hard to catch, plus gankers generally ignore ships not normally used for hauling. But no guarantees.

another option is T1 indys like your badger II. If you only need 4000m3 that leaves you a fair bit of room for tank. for example you can fit a reinforced bulkhead and damage controller in the low slots rather than filling them with cargo expanders. the badger can also fit a few decent shield tank mods. to avoid ganks you want to be around 20,000ehp or a close to it as possible.

the popular ganking ships are the ganknado which can do about 14,000 damage alfa strike and the blaster Talos which only does about 8-10,000 but can usually get off two shots before CONCORD shows up. these ships however are very expensive for ganking T1 indys. the returns just aren't there. Your biggest fear would be the blaster catalyst they put out less damage but are very cheap to buy. if you can get over 20,000 ehp toward kenetic/thermal you are fairly safe. the EHP shown on your ship fitting screan is calculated by your worst resist, usually EM. So if you stack for thermal/kinetic your EHP toward a catalyst will be higher than that. for example if you have 3000 shield hp at 0%em/70%th/72%kn/50%ex resists your sheild ehp will only be 3000 against em but 10,000 against the 70% thermal resist, then you still have armor and hull. With a damage controller II and a reinforced bulkhead or two and some shield extender rigs you should be able to get dam near 20,000 ehp at least toward thermal/kenetic.

No matter what you do you can always be ganked, but it does not take much to make you a less attractive target than the other 20-30 T1 haulers going in and out of Jita at the same time as you. As the old saying goes, "When running from a lion, you do not need to out run the lion, only to out run the person next to you." Gankers will go for the most appealing targets, if you are less appealing then the next guy, you should be safe.
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#13 - 2013-03-18 21:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodama Ikari
Thur Barbek wrote:
Just get a t2 transport ship


Yes P

Thur Barbek wrote:
like the crane.


No X

Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Issue with that is blockade runners are generally easy to kill


Only if you're afk or REALLY unlucky.

Some first-hand PI tips
Sophia Merchana
Merchana Inc.
#14 - 2013-03-18 21:18:37 UTC
What if you maxed out a Badger II with over 18Km3 and threw in 6 Giant Secure Containers and put a password on them and regularly drove in and out of Jita with 0 to ???M isk inside it? That should make you a not very appealing target.
Termy Rockling
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-03-18 21:24:44 UTC
Sophia Merchana wrote:
What if you maxed out a Badger II with over 18Km3 and threw in 6 Giant Secure Containers and put a password on them and regularly drove in and out of Jita with 0 to ???M isk inside it? That should make you a not very appealing target.


Passwords only work when the can is anchored in space, also cargoscanners see inside cans, thats why you need to do the plasticwrap trick to hide stuff.
Sophia Merchana
Merchana Inc.
#16 - 2013-03-18 21:37:28 UTC
Termy Rockling wrote:

Passwords only work when the can is anchored in space, also cargoscanners see inside cans, thats why you need to do the plasticwrap trick to hide stuff.


Wow, I didn't realize I had been doing that just for luck. That info is what I got from some corpmates. I guess just have my kind of luck then. Big smile
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#17 - 2013-03-18 21:38:27 UTC
Just drive a plain cargo expanded badger (or tanked, whatever) from the Customs office to a station, then pay someone else the pennies they'll ask to haul it to Jita.

Otherwise, this will get you about 36k Omni EHP heated with pretty even resists. That puts you around the 3 Tornado range to gank.

[Badger Mark II, HS Tank]

Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
EM Ward Field II

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#18 - 2013-03-18 23:17:30 UTC

A bustard offers a pretty decent tank... 61k before DCU is activated, 80k with it....

[Bustard, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Amplifier II

Improved Cloaking Device II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

One of the few times I recommend passive hardeners over active hardeners is when you think you may be shot before you get the chance to activate your tank. This happens most often when people try to alpha indy ships... hence why I fit resistance amps instead of active hardeners. This is even more-so the case now that active hardeners are no longer give any benefit when not active.

Other Options include using a shield tanked cruiser with the lows used for cargo expanders...
Moa can carry 1189 m3, while sporting a 50+ k EHP tank...

Battlecruisers are also decent choices.
The Ferox can carry 1250 m3 while sporting a 85+ k EHP tank.

Battleships work too...
The Raven can carry 2200+ m3 while sporting an 85+ k EHP tank...

I focused on caldari only because you mentioned you can fly that race... Armor tankers with enough mids to fit a tank make the best choice for heavy cargo carriers.

A domi can carry 2500-3250+ m3 while sporting a 74-60+ k EHP tank...

The truth is though, transport ships are usually ideal. The cloaky version is hard to catch as long as you have insta-undock bookmarks and actively pilot it. The Deep Space Transports can all carry 6+k ish stuff while sporting 80+k EHP tanks... making them excellent tools for the job.

Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-03-19 12:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
1) I think it's fairly rare if not very rare for T3 Battlecruisers to be used to suicide gank T1 industrials, blockade runners, & mining vessels UNLESS there is a severe grudge involved.

No grudge is really needed, only lack of reason in choosing the amount of isk you haul on any given day. I will usually gank T1s using nado for loads worth 800mil and above, although lately - if I can, I use ruppies. Much better profitability ratios.

Quote:
2) You don't really want to be transporting more than 30 million ISK worth of goods in a T1 industrial. It attracts too much attention.
3) To my view the only real use for T1 industrials is to empty PI from customs offices and to do level four Distribution missions. I generally won't use T1 industrial outside of those activities.

Again, not really. Depending on circumstances (what you are hauling, what your fit is), you can be fairly ok with loads of up to 300-400 mil, although those can be dangerous zone (particularly if you move through areas with ganking gangs active). Above that, you're asking to be ganked, and probably will be. T1s are fine for a lot of purposes, as long as you use some common sense. Put some basic tank and most people will not bother killing you for cargos of up to 100-150 mil. Although, you can be just unlucky and run into someone bored enough...

Quote:
4) As another reply said your best option is to use a Prowler/blockade runner with cloak & inertia stabilizers.

Well for OP's purpose, decently tanked T1 hauler is perfectly acceptable. However I would strongly advice you getting T2 industrials. Don't be lazy training em, they are absolutely worth having.

Quote:
5) The primary and usual vessel to gank is the catalyst. In most cases only one will be used.
6) Your suggestion that a 10,000 EHP tank will be enough to survive a gank from a Catalyst is incorrect. Your ship will be turned into scrap at that level. I don't know the exact figure to survive a gank but it is about 18,000 EHP.

Nope. Cata is usually used for ganking miners, where you have the advantage of slow Concord spawns in 0.5 systems and where their high dps plays a significant role in sucessfull gank. For hauler ganking (on gate stuff), minnie ships are the weapon of choice due to their high alphas. Hence - thrashers, ruppies, nados - depending on your target. So, a 10k ehp t1 hauler won't be turned into scrap, at least not on a gate by a solo cata because catalysts can't tank gate guns long enough. Note that I'm talking solo ganking here tho, gang ganking is another thing.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#20 - 2013-03-19 15:17:01 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
Just get a t2 transport ship like the crane. Its unscannable, you can tank it decently and still have a MWD on it. Its cloak means you only have a chance to die undocking (fit inertia stabs in low slots to align in 2 seconds.) or if you mess up and sit uncloaked on a gate or something.


Is unscannable cargo hold always a good thing?
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