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after using Rattlesnake the rest of the ships seems meh

Author
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-03-15 22:04:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mer88
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Isn't 3 omnis a bit redundant?


i think tracking is very underestimated. some people think if they can see numbers and not missing, they track fine. but if you start stacking the tracking mods, you will see a lot of high quality shots. This is why sentries are great, they fight in optimal range 100% of the time and their low alpha but high rof means you dont overkill your targets.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-03-15 22:12:05 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Your rattlesnake does about 400 dps less than a well fit navy domi.


but navy domi guns are only good till 35-45km anything pass you start to see that figure drop not to mention you probably got full racks of guns with no drone range control. so you are limited to 50-60ish km or max dps. plus the damage type is just average for most rats. Domi is good on paper but in combat, its doesnt do nearly as well due to tracking , range and damage type.

Then there is the tank, which domi will suffer due do having to fight at a closer range plus cap using railguns Also, it would be hard to fit a afterburner/mwd in it w/o gimping the shield tank further.


I don;t know what domi you've been flying, but mine melts things at 50km just fine, which is more than enough for pretty much any mission. Tracking is negated entirely by knowing how to fly, and the only things that are ever able to get under rail tracking melt in 1-2 shots from gardes+omnis. This also doesn't factor in defender missiles, which guns don't need to worry about.

And damage types, if you think 250 dps omni from missiles comes anywhere close to the performance of the 750 you get from a domi with rails?

The rattler is a tank, that's all it does well, and tanking is irrelevant in missions because they do so little damage and are so predictable. I know what the rattler is capable of, I have one, and have tested fitting it in a myriad of different ways before giving up because the domi is just so much better. You lose tank but gain damage projection and faster completion times, it's no contest.


how do you negate tracking if you are using sentries? you are pretty much stationary the whole time unless you drop you drones and you fly off somewhere to lower the transverse velocity.

Also how do you get 750 gun dps from rails on navy domi? i barely hit 600dps on my hyperion with 8x meta 4 350mm with faction ammo.
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-03-15 22:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleidascope
Mer88 wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Your rattlesnake does about 400 dps less than a well fit navy domi.


but navy domi guns are only good till 35-45km anything pass you start to see that figure drop not to mention you probably got full racks of guns with no drone range control. so you are limited to 50-60ish km or max dps. plus the damage type is just average for most rats. Domi is good on paper but in combat, its doesnt do nearly as well due to tracking , range and damage type.

Then there is the tank, which domi will suffer due do having to fight at a closer range plus cap using railguns Also, it would be hard to fit a afterburner/mwd in it w/o gimping the shield tank further.


I don;t know what domi you've been flying, but mine melts things at 50km just fine, which is more than enough for pretty much any mission. Tracking is negated entirely by knowing how to fly, and the only things that are ever able to get under rail tracking melt in 1-2 shots from gardes+omnis. This also doesn't factor in defender missiles, which guns don't need to worry about.

And damage types, if you think 250 dps omni from missiles comes anywhere close to the performance of the 750 you get from a domi with rails?

The rattler is a tank, that's all it does well, and tanking is irrelevant in missions because they do so little damage and are so predictable. I know what the rattler is capable of, I have one, and have tested fitting it in a myriad of different ways before giving up because the domi is just so much better. You lose tank but gain damage projection and faster completion times, it's no contest.


how do you negate tracking if you are using sentries? you are pretty much stationary the whole time unless you drop you drones and you fly off somewhere to lower the transverse velocity.

Also how do you get 750 gun dps from rails on navy domi? i barely hit 600dps on my hyperion with 8x meta 4 350mm with faction ammo.

With sentries out, they are stationary, but far away, when rats fly toward them, the transversal of the rats is reduced, so they are easy to hit, and in effect kill. Not much tracking is needed when enemy has low transversal.

When sentries are not out, you move far away, then let rats chase you. Again, when they chase you, the rats fly straighter, so your turrets don't have to move much to track them, so you score more hits and/or better hits, kill them faster. Variation on the chase tactic is kiting. Kiting would work against bs size rats, but frigs, cruisers and bc rats would be able to close with you so the further out you start, the more time you have to kill stuff.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-03-15 22:24:16 UTC
Caleidascope wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Mer88 wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Your rattlesnake does about 400 dps less than a well fit navy domi.


but navy domi guns are only good till 35-45km anything pass you start to see that figure drop not to mention you probably got full racks of guns with no drone range control. so you are limited to 50-60ish km or max dps. plus the damage type is just average for most rats. Domi is good on paper but in combat, its doesnt do nearly as well due to tracking , range and damage type.

Then there is the tank, which domi will suffer due do having to fight at a closer range plus cap using railguns Also, it would be hard to fit a afterburner/mwd in it w/o gimping the shield tank further.


I don;t know what domi you've been flying, but mine melts things at 50km just fine, which is more than enough for pretty much any mission. Tracking is negated entirely by knowing how to fly, and the only things that are ever able to get under rail tracking melt in 1-2 shots from gardes+omnis. This also doesn't factor in defender missiles, which guns don't need to worry about.

And damage types, if you think 250 dps omni from missiles comes anywhere close to the performance of the 750 you get from a domi with rails?

The rattler is a tank, that's all it does well, and tanking is irrelevant in missions because they do so little damage and are so predictable. I know what the rattler is capable of, I have one, and have tested fitting it in a myriad of different ways before giving up because the domi is just so much better. You lose tank but gain damage projection and faster completion times, it's no contest.


how do you negate tracking if you are using sentries? you are pretty much stationary the whole time unless you drop you drones and you fly off somewhere to lower the transverse velocity.

Also how do you get 750 gun dps from rails on navy domi? i barely hit 600dps on my hyperion with 8x meta 4 350mm with faction ammo.

With sentries out, they are stationary, but far away, when rats fly toward them, the transversal of the rats is reduced, so they are easy to hit, and in effect kill. Not much tracking is needed when enemy has low transversal.

When sentries are not out, you move far away, then let rats chase you. Variation on the chase tactic is kiting. Kiting would work against bs size rats, but frigs, cruisers and bc rats would be able to close with you so the further out you start, the more time you have to kill stuff.


but if the sentries are not out that means you are not doing full dps, you have to use the med or heavy which are very slow. even worst is with the new drone aggro AI, i find that alot of my drones get random aggro and had to put them back in the bay but this isnt a big problem for sentry which is in range the whole time.
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-03-15 22:33:25 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
Caleidascope wrote:

With sentries out, they are stationary, but far away, when rats fly toward them, the transversal of the rats is reduced, so they are easy to hit, and in effect kill. Not much tracking is needed when enemy has low transversal.

When sentries are not out, you move far away, then let rats chase you. Variation on the chase tactic is kiting. Kiting would work against bs size rats, but frigs, cruisers and bc rats would be able to close with you so the further out you start, the more time you have to kill stuff.


but if the sentries are not out that means you are not doing full dps, you have to use the med or heavy which are very slow. even worst is with the new drone aggro AI, i find that alot of my drones get random aggro and had to put them back in the bay but this isnt a big problem for sentry which is in range the whole time.

The second scenario was just my guess at the tactic to be used. I don't fly domi at all. You can always use Jack of Diamonds (LMJD) to jump 100km every 3 minutes, that will let you open the range, come to stop, deploy sentries, kill stuff.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Orlacc
#26 - 2013-03-15 23:29:48 UTC
Glad to hear it. What do you do in it?

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#27 - 2013-03-15 23:50:51 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
how do you negate tracking if you are using sentries? you are pretty much stationary the whole time unless you drop you drones and you fly off somewhere to lower the transverse velocity.

Also how do you get 750 gun dps from rails on navy domi? i barely hit 600dps on my hyperion with 8x meta 4 350mm with faction ammo.
1)Anything small enough to require movement to reduce transversal is also small enough to die in 2 shots max, so even constantly adjusting your movement shouldn't force you to drift outside of scoop range by more than a few meters.

2)I've posted the fit many times on these forums, but you need perfect skills (which I have) and t2 425s, with 3 faction MFSs, a t2 burst aerator, and a few damage implants. I also like using javelin ammo in my rails, which does add like 12 DPS over faction (I use it for the extra tracking, and swap to AM to pop rats past ~30km). On a slightly less useful note: If you happen to be running damsel in distress, you can actually use blasters and ogres instead of rails and sentries, and your damage goes up to 2008 dps Big smile It isn't terribly useful but it is one of the most entertaining things you can do in a level 4 mission.

3)Honestly the tracking issue was more of a general statement. Nothing bigger than a cruiser can get under your guns even sitting still in missions, and for the frigs-cruisers gardes work quite well. If you're having a hard time hitting things with your guns, get better gun skills.

The rattlesnake is a great ship if you know when to use it. Level 4 grinding is not the place.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-03-16 01:40:27 UTC
can you link your post or fitting? i seen navy domi fits that do rail 1200dps but no where near the 1400+dps that you suggest. (400 more than mine). or are you using high dps low range t2 ammo??
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#29 - 2013-03-16 03:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
If you dig around the posts I;ve made on this forum you can find the exact fit, but the gist of it was:

6X 425mm rail IIs

Mids to taste, though I go for very little tank as most missions I don't even use the booster.

3 drone damage amps
3 faction MFS
1 fitting mod (I think it was a PDS, but it miiiight be an RCU)

Hybrid burst aerator II (the rig only gives something like 60 extra dps, but I find I notice the difference when playing since the guns fire about a second or so faster each cycle)

1 shield rig to taste (I'd go for kinetic or thermal, since those are the rats you want to be shooting anyway, but again, tank is almost completely irrelevant on this fit)

Bring some gardes, ogres and hammerheads (ogres for missions where you need to travel a lot and hammers to clean frigs)

Toss in some 6% implants for gun ROF and large hybrids because why not Big smile

USE T2 AMMO FOR THINGS CLOSER THAN ~25KM. The tracking bonus is very nice, though the DPS is the same as faction AM.

If memory serves this should put you somewhere in the 1400s for DPS. I did manage to crank 1500 out of the domi using rails, but the fit was gimpy and at that point it was just eft **** waving.

EDIT: I just checked and the fit I was linking used cap rigs not weapon rigs, I think I wound up sticking with those since cap got a bit hairy in some of the longer missions, it's been a few months since I've actually bothered running missions P Still does 1429 DPS though so w/e (the weapon rig one does 1486 with my skills, and if I got large hybrid spec to 5 it would actually do 1500 on the dot Big smile
Haulie Berry
#30 - 2013-03-16 04:09:10 UTC
Mer88 wrote:


lol thats not even that expensive. around 2b in fittings. i guess if used to t2 stuff , anything else is too expensive


Yes. It is not *that* expensive.

It is still possible to be needlessly expensive without being *that* expensive, though.
stoicfaux
#31 - 2013-03-16 06:47:10 UTC
Mer88 wrote:


For a some missions a mach might be faster but for all other missions, i dont see how a mach can ever beat rattlesnake.

i can do angel blockade in rattlesnake in 20mins but took me 25-30 in mach.

MWD Mach: 14:59, 16:58, 15:50, and 18:50

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-03-16 08:43:37 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
If you dig around the posts I;ve made on this forum you can find the exact fit, but the gist of it was:

6X 425mm rail IIs

Mids to taste, though I go for very little tank as most missions I don't even use the booster.

3 drone damage amps
3 faction MFS
1 fitting mod (I think it was a PDS, but it miiiight be an RCU)

Hybrid burst aerator II (the rig only gives something like 60 extra dps, but I find I notice the difference when playing since the guns fire about a second or so faster each cycle)

1 shield rig to taste (I'd go for kinetic or thermal, since those are the rats you want to be shooting anyway, but again, tank is almost completely irrelevant on this fit)

Bring some gardes, ogres and hammerheads (ogres for missions where you need to travel a lot and hammers to clean frigs)

Toss in some 6% implants for gun ROF and large hybrids because why not Big smile

USE T2 AMMO FOR THINGS CLOSER THAN ~25KM. The tracking bonus is very nice, though the DPS is the same as faction AM.

If memory serves this should put you somewhere in the 1400s for DPS. I did manage to crank 1500 out of the domi using rails, but the fit was gimpy and at that point it was just eft **** waving.

EDIT: I just checked and the fit I was linking used cap rigs not weapon rigs, I think I wound up sticking with those since cap got a bit hairy in some of the longer missions, it's been a few months since I've actually bothered running missions P Still does 1429 DPS though so w/e (the weapon rig one does 1486 with my skills, and if I got large hybrid spec to 5 it would actually do 1500 on the dot Big smile


i found this on battleclinic poster name Asghaad :
"...........you can load Javs into 425s, but at 20kms of theyr optimal with this ammo you cant hit anything other than stationary building :)

in most missions you have group of rats that burn toward you (after being aggroed) at near zero angular to get into theyr orbit distance ( 5-10km for frigs/destros, 15-20km cruisers/BC, +-30 km most BS, long range ones around 50km)

this means that only rats (with exception of angels) that orbit in optimal of javelin loaded guns are rats with more than 0.05 angular speed when orbitting. As 425s loaded with javs have 0.017 tracking you wont be able to hit them and battleship sized rats will keep far outside 20 km optimal.

"
so he is saying jav ammo is very bad for pve ?



Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-03-16 08:45:07 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Mer88 wrote:


For a some missions a mach might be faster but for all other missions, i dont see how a mach can ever beat rattlesnake.

i can do angel blockade in rattlesnake in 20mins but took me 25-30 in mach.

MWD Mach: 14:59, 16:58, 15:50, and 18:50



are those all for blockade time? thats pretty amazing, i can never do it that fast in mach , maybe a mwd might help
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#34 - 2013-03-16 10:41:39 UTC
I used a RS for a couple of weeks, but TBH I stopped because I thought it was a PITA. There's no doubt the T2 Sentries do good DPS, but I found I was often having to scoop them because of NPC aggro. All the while they are being scooped they aren't putting out any damage.

I do like the suggestion about swapping the Cruise Launchers for Rapid Lights.

Nice ship, but more trouble than it's worth IMHO.



Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#35 - 2013-03-16 21:05:37 UTC
Mer88 wrote:


i found this on battleclinic poster name Asghaad :
"...........you can load Javs into 425s, but at 20kms of theyr optimal with this ammo you cant hit anything other than stationary building :)

in most missions you have group of rats that burn toward you (after being aggroed) at near zero angular to get into theyr orbit distance ( 5-10km for frigs/destros, 15-20km cruisers/BC, +-30 km most BS, long range ones around 50km)

this means that only rats (with exception of angels) that orbit in optimal of javelin loaded guns are rats with more than 0.05 angular speed when orbitting. As 425s loaded with javs have 0.017 tracking you wont be able to hit them and battleship sized rats will keep far outside 20 km optimal.

"
so he is saying jav ammo is very bad for pve ?




1) Never, EVER take advice from battleclinic, it's a well known fact that most of the info/fits there are shite.

2)I pop BSs and BCs just fine in the 20km> range with 425s. I have to move if I want to hit a cruiser but again, they go down in 1-2 shots (and that's assuming that they get into a stable orbit, which they shouldn't)

3)Remember that rails have pretty good falloff. Even with jav loaded you're still doing 1300dps at 35km, and you don't drop to 1k dps until past the 50km mark (but again, it's best to use AM for things farther than 30)

4)Can't stress this enough, but the rattlesnake is bad for highsec missions. I say this having flown all the main mission ships for quite a while, and having pretty good skills in damn near everything. The mach, domi, and nightmare are the kings of lvl 4s, but all 3 require very nice skills to work well. The rattlesnake SEEMS good because your support skills are meh, and that's a good time to be flying it.
Skira Noza
Skira Noza Tax Free Corporation
#36 - 2013-03-17 17:38:44 UTC
How do you manage NPC aggro on Sentry Drones when flying Rattlesnake?
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-03-17 21:27:24 UTC
Skira Noza wrote:
How do you manage NPC aggro on Sentry Drones when flying Rattlesnake?

You either dps tank, kill the rats, no more agro on the drones. Or you scoop the drones to protect them.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-03-17 21:48:54 UTC
Mer88 wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Mer88 wrote:


For a some missions a mach might be faster but for all other missions, i dont see how a mach can ever beat rattlesnake.

i can do angel blockade in rattlesnake in 20mins but took me 25-30 in mach.

MWD Mach: 14:59, 16:58, 15:50, and 18:50



are those all for blockade time? thats pretty amazing, i can never do it that fast in mach , maybe a mwd might help


A properly fit Mach easily does Angle blockade in 12 minutes, and that's clearing.

Sansha or Serp blockade is a whole different matter. But without rat ewar, Rattler doesn't come anywhere close to Mach.
Orlacc
#39 - 2013-03-17 23:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Orlacc
Skira Noza wrote:
How do you manage NPC aggro on Sentry Drones when flying Rattlesnake?

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-03-17 23:22:08 UTC
Rattlesnake is by FAR the worst faction BS there is.
It's a terrible boat for almost everything.

There is no Bob.

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