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Ganking of mining barges has picked up again in high sec.
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Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-03-15 18:42:07 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
Now this is going to taste bitter for you, but actually the buffs to the barges went to far and some of them need to be taken back. HiSec is too safe for absent minded players who are AFK most of the time. Far too safe considering how much safety they get without even putting up any effort.


I want to know how much you want to roll back though. The issue with mining barges and exhumers is that they have always been short changed when it comes to CPU and powergrid. Before the change you could fit a hurricane with weapons in the highs, weapon mods in the lows, and still have enough powergrid and CPU to fit large shield extender II's and afterburners in the mids. Same thing with the stabber, which is the same size class as barges. Fill the highs with weapons, lows with weapon mods, and the mids could still fit large shield extenders, afterburners, and/or resist mods.

But then barges were treated differently. Fill the highs with strip miners/ice harvesters, lows with yield mods, and you would have jack squat left to fit a tank. I remember that the mack was the worst and all it could manage was a civilian shield booster or something like that. It was ******** that mining barges needed to be tanked like cruisers and battlecruisers to avoid being ganked, but they gave us frigate fitting capacity to do it. Only thing you could really do is hull tank with DCII and stack frigate shield mods/rigs.

I think a compromise would be alright where we lower the base EHP of barges, but compesate with higher fitting capacity so those of us who choose to tank our ships can reach the same values, if not higher, when piloting the most targeted and easiest to harass ship in the game.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2013-03-15 18:46:38 UTC
Kajin Kanjus wrote:

lots and lots of words...



Working as intended; adapt or die (or GTFO, I don't care which).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2013-03-15 18:49:20 UTC
Kajin Kanjus wrote:

Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose. The purpose is to allow those that don't want to be in constant danger of having their stuff destroyed a place to go and do their thing.


In hi sec you aren't in constant danger. Can you exaggerate anymore.

BTW, in null sec you aren't in constant danger either.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dave Stark
#44 - 2013-03-15 18:51:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kajin Kanjus wrote:

Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose. The purpose is to allow those that don't want to be in constant danger of having their stuff destroyed a place to go and do their thing.


In hi sec you aren't in constant danger. Can you exaggerate anymore.

BTW, in null sec you aren't in constant danger either.


you're in constant danger everywhere.
as soon as you undock there's nothing to stop some one targeting your ship, and shooting it. nothing.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2013-03-15 18:53:44 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Kajin Kanjus wrote:

Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose.
High security, not total or perfect security.

It's purpose is to be safer than low and null, not safe.

Oh and you say you lost a Hulk to 2 destroyers. Saying it was fit for null, means nothing tbh. How was it fit exactly?


This, can we see the fit please? I'm finding it hard to believe you were fit for null as you should be able to tank them till Concord kills them, even in a 0.5 system.

Did you forget to turn on your tank?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2013-03-15 18:58:06 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kajin Kanjus wrote:

Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose. The purpose is to allow those that don't want to be in constant danger of having their stuff destroyed a place to go and do their thing.


In hi sec you aren't in constant danger. Can you exaggerate anymore.

BTW, in null sec you aren't in constant danger either.


you're in constant danger everywhere.
as soon as you undock there's nothing to stop some one targeting your ship, and shooting it. nothing.


Not in an empty system you aren't. Big smile

But, I do agree that danger is never far away anywhere in Eve if that is what you are saying...if your system is empty, feel lucky, but don't get sloppy.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-03-15 18:58:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckie DeLey
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I think a compromise would be alright where we lower the base EHP of barges, but compesate with higher fitting capacity so those of us who choose to tank our ships can reach the same values, if not higher, when piloting the most targeted and easiest to harass ship in the game.


That's exactly how it should've been done. Player's choices need to matter. It shouldn't ever be possible to make fits that are good at everything - that's true for combat vessels as well, by the way, and i do like similar changes to the Cane, Drake, Tengu and other notorious "Do everything" ships.
By building the tank into the barge hulls and not into the fitting capabilities of the barges, CCP took the player's choice away. That's just plain bad design.

When done right, the smart miners would be able to happily drone away while the dumb carebears who use the extra PG and CPU only for yield would feed the 'needs' of the gankers. Everyone would win, especially the smart miner...

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Dave Stark
#48 - 2013-03-15 18:59:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kajin Kanjus wrote:

Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose. The purpose is to allow those that don't want to be in constant danger of having their stuff destroyed a place to go and do their thing.


In hi sec you aren't in constant danger. Can you exaggerate anymore.

BTW, in null sec you aren't in constant danger either.


you're in constant danger everywhere.
as soon as you undock there's nothing to stop some one targeting your ship, and shooting it. nothing.


Not in an empty system you aren't. Big smile

But, I do agree that danger is never far away anywhere in Eve if that is what you are saying...if your system is empty, feel lucky, but don't get sloppy.


if your system is empty, you just logged in quickly after downtime :P
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2013-03-15 19:00:13 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Nullsec tanked hulk is great for rats (where they're more the "wear you down with low alpha, high dps") ... not so hot for player pirates (where the name of the game is "alpha").


With that said, ships exploding is always a good thing (for business, anyway). Gankers _DO_ lose their ships, and, well you need a new hulk now.


They were dessies, thus not enough alpha to kill a properly tanked hulk with a single volley.

Now, if it wasn't properly tanked or the tank wasn't turned on...then maybe.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2013-03-15 19:01:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Kajin Kanjus wrote:

Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose. The purpose is to allow those that don't want to be in constant danger of having their stuff destroyed a place to go and do their thing.


In hi sec you aren't in constant danger. Can you exaggerate anymore.

BTW, in null sec you aren't in constant danger either.


you're in constant danger everywhere.
as soon as you undock there's nothing to stop some one targeting your ship, and shooting it. nothing.


Not in an empty system you aren't. Big smile

But, I do agree that danger is never far away anywhere in Eve if that is what you are saying...if your system is empty, feel lucky, but don't get sloppy.


if your system is empty, you just logged in quickly after downtime :P


Most null systems are empty. That is why null can be safer than hi sec. There are some systems were you wont see anyone for over an hour or more. Granted they are kind of crap systems, but better than most hi sec systems in regards to rats, ores, etc.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2013-03-15 19:02:35 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I think a compromise would be alright where we lower the base EHP of barges, but compesate with higher fitting capacity so those of us who choose to tank our ships can reach the same values, if not higher, when piloting the most targeted and easiest to harass ship in the game.


That's exactly how it should've been done. Player's choices need to matter. It shouldn't ever be possible to make fits that are good at everything - that's true for combat vessels as well, by the way, and i do like similar changes to the Cane, Drake, Tengu and other notorious "Do everything" ships.
By building the tank into the barge hulls and not into the fitting capabilities of the barges, CCP took the player's choice away. That's just plain bad design.

When done right, the smart miners would be able to happily drone away while the dumb carebears who use the extra PG and CPU only for yield would feed the 'needs' of the gankers. Everyone would win, especially the smart miner...


We have reached concensus.
Dave Stark
#52 - 2013-03-15 19:04:31 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Most null systems are empty. That is why null can be safer than hi sec. There are some systems were you wont see anyone for over an hour or more. Granted they are kind of crap systems, but better than most hi sec systems in regards to rats, ores, etc.


but you don't mine in those systems, as they won't have an industry index of 3 or higher.
even so, why any one would mine in null is a mystery to me. it's less isk/hour than high sec.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2013-03-15 19:06:47 UTC
For example,

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/5KS-AB

Note that for several hours there was no traffic in that system.

This one too.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/A-3ES3

If you want to mine without being ganked...you could move to a boring system that very few people go to and mine away and not see anyone for 1, 2, 3 hours. I'd recommend a scout alt and safes you can log at.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#54 - 2013-03-15 19:07:09 UTC
Kajin Kanjus wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Problems I foresee with this thread:

3-6.) The killright system is AMAZINGLY improved over the joke it once was... Use it wisely, and it will benefit you... use it poorly, and works about as well as thwarting a suicide attack with a civilian shield booster!!
-- A shuttle should count... if you are dumb enough to make it available to everyone for free... they should be able to shed it with any ship in the game...
-- I'm ok with removing notifications about the status of a killright...
-- The killright activation scheme is perfect... it doesnt' need to be changed!


Can't agree with you here. As someone else pointed out, not many miners are using the kill rights system. Why? The gankers can tell who is invoking the kill right. What's to prevent the same gankers from coming back and ganking you again? Nothing. In fact, nothing new happens except perhaps an extra day or two is effectively added to the kill right. You say, well get into a better tanked ship! Well, as someone has already pointed out, that just changes the number required to gank! The only thing that really does is afford less likelihood of getting ganked during non-peak hours.

If the killmail notification message you received did not indicate who invoked it and did not indicate who could take advantage of it, THAT would be a different ball game.

Also, you said, "if you are dumb enough to make it available to everyone for free", in a sense you are saying the public option to kill rights is useless. The only thing that may make it worthwhile is if there is a bounty on someone, and with this new 90 day option for new alt accounts, there's suddenly a lot of 3 or 4 day old characters out there ganking that have no bounties.



I'm having trouble following you here:

a.) I said that i"m ok with removing notifications about the status of killrights: Meaning I don't think the party on the recieving end should get an EvE-notice stating their killright is suddenly public... I don't think it is killright-breaking if they do though....

b.) You can make a killright public.. and NOT free.... Make it cost 5-10m to activate the killright... Sure, it might not be activated, or the owner might be annoyed enough to activate it himself. Either way, you get paid, or they have to deal with the hassle it presents. It doesn't prevent future losses, and it doesn't guarantee revenge, and it's not meant to!

c.) Using the logic: it only increases the number needed to gank you so why bother is completely asinine... Imagine if your BS was ganked... putting on 2 more plates would only increase the number of ships required to kill it, so what good would it do? This type of thought process only strips yourself of any responsibility. You are right, whenever you are in space, you can't prevent people from attacking you. But you can prepare for it, you can make it expensive to destroy you, you can fight back.... That's the dog-eat-dog world of EvE. Bullies don't pick on the big and strong, they pick on the weak and impotent. If you make your ship tough, and harder to pick on, they generally move on to easier opponents.

d.) I've stated it many times already... the biggest threat to you in this game is other players... You have tools to make you hard to victimize, use them. CCP is NOT going to remove thugs from the game, they are as important to this world as the "builders" are!
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#55 - 2013-03-15 19:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Kajin Kanjus wrote:
As someone else pointed out, not many miners are using the kill rights system. Why? The gankers can tell who is invoking the kill right. What's to prevent the same gankers from coming back and ganking you again? Nothing.

Do you honestly think this? You're making us gankers out to be petty and vindictive. If someone slaps on a bounty, sells or activates a killright... the majority of us just glance at it, close the notification, and go about our business. It just isn't worth the effort to go find one person somewhere in high-sec, probably docked up, and watch them rant in local (unless they are a "special case" which takes actual effort on the part of the gankee to attain).

Kajin Kanjus wrote:
You say, well get into a better tanked ship! Well, as someone has already pointed out, that just changes the number required to gank! The only thing that really does is afford less likelihood of getting ganked during non-peak hours.

Yes... it cuts down the likelihood of being ganked. The risk will NEVER be zero. And it should never be.

As for getting greater numbers to gank one ship... that's more difficult than you imagine. Think "herding cats."

Kajin Kanjus wrote:
If the killmail notification message you received did not indicate who invoked it and did not indicate who could take advantage of it, THAT would be a different ball game.

It would change nothing. Most people still won't come down into low or null-sec to shoot one person out of many.

How did you Veterans start?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2013-03-15 19:09:20 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Most null systems are empty. That is why null can be safer than hi sec. There are some systems were you wont see anyone for over an hour or more. Granted they are kind of crap systems, but better than most hi sec systems in regards to rats, ores, etc.


but you don't mine in those systems, as they won't have an industry index of 3 or higher.
even so, why any one would mine in null is a mystery to me. it's less isk/hour than high sec.


Well, life is full of trade offs...you get enhanced safety but a lower return...

Of course, you could properly tank your hulk, stay aligned and remain in hi sec, but apparently that is too much work (not aiming this at your Dave Stark, but he OP).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-03-15 19:12:31 UTC
One final piece of advice to the OP:

Remember that you don't have to be able to tank everything that your opponents could bring. That's a fools errand. You just need to be better tanked than the other guys in the belt.

EVE is a PVP game, even when you are mining. You are directly competing with the other guys in the belt. When a couple Catalysts warp into a belt and look for a target, they will only choose you when you are the weakest of the pack. Don't be the weakest.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Dave Stark
#58 - 2013-03-15 19:13:44 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Most null systems are empty. That is why null can be safer than hi sec. There are some systems were you wont see anyone for over an hour or more. Granted they are kind of crap systems, but better than most hi sec systems in regards to rats, ores, etc.


but you don't mine in those systems, as they won't have an industry index of 3 or higher.
even so, why any one would mine in null is a mystery to me. it's less isk/hour than high sec.


Well, life is full of trade offs...you get enhanced safety but a lower return...

Of course, you could properly tank your hulk, stay aligned and remain in hi sec, but apparently that is too much work (not aiming this at your Dave Stark, but he OP).


null sec is already lower than high sec, even at industry index 3. reducing it any further and you may as well just log out and not bother.

don't even need to try and avoid ganks in high sec, as i pointed out, isk tanking in a retriever. it's ridiculous but it exists and it works.
Kajin Kanjus
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-03-15 19:15:32 UTC
DataRunner Attor wrote:



I think it funny that kin here doesn't understand the value of teamwork and a good fit, hey guess what, before kill rights were a joke and only the person that was attacked could get the right, now they have it set up so that if you attack someone EVERYONE can shoot you in the face and kill you if they so deem funny enough. But hey I guess you didn't know that.


They are still a joke as far as suicide ganking is concerned. If you get 20% of a dessie you are getting squat. So, you kill (or someone else) kills the ganker flying around in their Thrasher and you get 20% of the value of the Thrasher?? You lose a 100-200 million ISK ship for a 200,000 ISK bounty? Now THAT'S a winning strategy there...

These guys aren't running around in high sec in their lokis!
Kajin Kanjus
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-03-15 19:20:05 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Well, life is full of trade offs...you get enhanced safety but a lower return...

Of course, you could properly tank your hulk, stay aligned and remain in hi sec, but apparently that is too much work (not aiming this at your Dave Stark, but he OP).


I'm sorry, but I find it amusing that people think you'll be able to get away in a Hulk by having it aligned. If someone shows up in your belt looking to gank and you are in a Hulk, you are NOT getting away. Not if the ganker(s) are worth their salt.

You can do it with a Procurer or Skiff, but not in a Hulk. Not unless you are already under way (moving) and that makes mining a lot more difficult (i.e. silly).