Player Features and Ideas Discussion

And if you actually read those CSM minutes you would have noted that CCP actually said they won't be doing anything with POSs because it won't affect enough people yet.

Two Step disproved that theory and there is a thread in jita park with thousands of posts in it to prove Two Step right.

As for your problem with cloaks, they are integral to EvE now. If you don't like it, tough. The law of the sandbox is clear, cloaky ships have just as much right to be undetectable as you do of blowing them up. Cloaks are often needed, as they are pretty much the only way to survive while traveling anywhere outside of highsec if your alone or in a small group.

Cloaks are powerful, and the ships that use them, especially covert ships, get heavily gimped for it.

So let me ask you, what actions can a pilot take to physically interact with another ship while remaining cloaked? Please name one. If you can, I will consider your argument valid. Until that time, I will remain of the opinion that it is no more than a toddler's tantrum over the fact he can't play with a specific toy.

I follow what Azrael says and agree. For the record, I love cloaks! I love whs and their no local (AND NO CYNOS!)!! I love pvp and risk too! This is NOT about pve or about local or about low effort pvp for the anti-SB.

PS: For those who say, just safe-up if the SB DE-cloaks, you are already pointed and the cyno is already up the instant you see him, SO the force projection of THAT threat is quite real regardless of whether local reports it or not. But this is not about the pve.

The point of this is to increase the risk to the stealth bomber or other afk cloaky, the longer their cloak remains on continuosly AND/OR to decrease the force projection by increasing, proportional to the amount of time cloaked, the lock time AND increasing the time that any module can be activated after decloak.
1) After x minutes, the cloak begins to "leak" more and more, and it becomes easier and easier to scan it down.
2) After x minutes, all modules requires "y" more minutes before they can activate, including and especially covert and reg. cynos.

The argument against AFK cloaking always wants to have it both ways.

One hostile in space is an unacceptable risk for them, yet somehow the AFK cloaker in system with a dozen hostiles is zero risk.

On one hand, it's always a week old char in a t1 frig with a proto cloak when they talk about the resources needed to set it up. When you point out that can't kill anything then suddenly it's a covert T3 with a black ops fleet behind it. So when we talk about the resources it somehow always takes the least amount, but when we talk about the damage it can do, it's always somehow the most.

Afk cloakers can be afk 23/7 and somehow still know the exact second someone tries to kill a rat, with 100% accuracy in order to completely lock down the system. So when we talk about effort it's always the least but when we talk about effect it's always the most.

Not only this but the AFK cloaker can somehow always have exactly whatever ships and resources needed to avoid every trap and counter any preparation of the defenders could ever possibly make. Yet at the same time the AFK cloaker somehow still takes zero setup, preparation, foresight, or piloting ability.

Even better, they won't talk their own refusal to put any effort or preparation into their own survival. They can't travel in groups. They can't use fast sneaky ships like bombers to rat. They can't run anoms and just watch for probes. They can't set up their own counter drops. They seem to think in a pvp situation their ships just automatically explode.

The fact is, An AFK ship does not lock a system down. Players who are so risk averse they don't belong in 0.0 to begin with are what lock down systems all by themselves.

If you want to know how to get rid of an AFK Cloaker the secret is simple. Change your defeatist attitude.

And while you sat In the system cloaked, which mechanic were you using to interact with the locals?

If you actually read the thread, you would know.

I said that I didn't read it fully and i might be wrong but it was mentioned there. Now I know beter not to expect a fix to a thing that is completely broken and needs a huge fix.

Anyhow. Why are you so fixated to the physical interaction all the time. There are alot other things you can do with cloaked ships than shoot stuff. Eventualy alot of those actions will lead to the fact that you or someone else will shoot stuff but still the cloaked ship is the one that prepares the attack CLOAKED. Also it is said (at least here) that well planed is half build. So you all the things you can do with the cloaked ship and nothing I can do to prevent you from doing it.

That is a good proactive view, which I endorse.

If they want a view that requires less effort:
Return to high sec. Concord will protect you. Those level 4 missions are almost as much reward, don't worry about us missing you in null.
Plus, you won't need to ever worry about cloaked AFK pilots there.

This is such a shame. Such a solid point made, clearly with some effort put into it, yet based on previous experience of such things, nobody who disagrees will bother to read it, and if they do they'll dismiss it because it disagrees with their world view.

Let's counter some of the obsurd points:
1) Removing local removes the problem. FALSE. The threat remains.
2) Cloaked ships present zero threat while cloaked. FALSE. They stream intel, create bms and warp-ins, and CYNO fleets AT THE TIME AND PLACE OF THEIR CHOOSING.
3) Cloaked ships have zero tank. FALSE. Tell that to the Recon with a 1600mm plate. You will be pointed long enough for whatever is being cyno'd in to point you.
4) The cloaky cyno ship activities are risky because of "home field advantage." FALSE. Proper movement techniques and bms render travel in null virtually risk free. Once in the target system, the risk is zero because that cloak keeps going until the recon is READY.
5) The defenders should maintain sufficient defense 23/7. FALSE. If the recon fits a regular cyno and titans pour in, what kind of defense can be maintained 23/7 against that level of threat? The answer is, none. Fact is, the defenders cannot engage a cloaky (afk or not) and they cannot create a defense sufficient to counter what can be logged in and cyno'd at a moment's notice.

If I missed any other obsurd points, then I will add them starting at #6, I guess, but the point is that the cloaky cyno allows force projection without any risk. Even if the defending forces manages to rally to the defending ship with sufficient numbers to actually provide a good fight, the 1600mm plate on that covert cyno recon will likely keep it alive long enough to take down the initial target, finish the cyno, and get out of there, because the aggressors will have brought sufficient firepower to eliminate their target quickly, regardless of however it was tanked.

1) The threat for both sides remain, the removal of local means that the cloaker doesn't fully know what kind of hostiles he going up against. The statement still stands, local gives to much information and people use that information to strike fear in themselves.
2) Cloaked ships have a zero abilities while cloaked they can't do anything while cloak besides relay intel which in turn is the abuse of local, A ship must decloak to activate cyno, and in that time you have to make two choices, to shoot him, or to warp away.
3) Great they van fit 1600mm plate, but they still have no reduction to damage tooken by your weapon systems, adding HP doesn't always = tank mate. You can have all the HP in the world and still crumple under fire.
4) A cloaky cyno ships activity are risky because of the home field, is it our fault that you don't know how to defend your own systems? Not really, cloakers normally pick an easy target because of home field advantage, it not their fault all you do is mine and transport and don't have any active fighters in your mist.
5)Lastly but the greatest point of all. If you wish to join null sec you take a risk that a bigger alliance can gobble you up at any ******* time they want, but most counter hostile hot drops by paying attention to map, if you noticed that a system 5 or 6 light years away suddenly has from 50 to 200 players in it, It might be time to relocate till they move on.
6) your absurd remarks is why the forum needs a downvote feature so I could show you how much everyone else thinks of your points.
7) it also spelled absurd, not obsurd

Cyno force projection means that a fleet of x ships can project an instant threat to EVERY system within their cyno range all at the same time AND WITHOUT any risk to any ship in that fleet (except the cyno if NOT cloaky). Edit: In comparison, a regular roaming gang risks every ship in their gang as they project their threat out ONLY 1 system away.

Cloaky afk/inactive/not engaging cyno means that the means for projection cannot be countered by scanning and the risk to the ship projecting that force is zero. There is a risk that the victim will shoot it when it decloaks, but with a 1600mm plate, it will live long enough to cyno their friends in, so solo activity cannot use ships worth more than a recon (150 mil) or a SB (30 mil) without risking losing more than you might be able to take out before the cyno'd dps takes you out.

Talk about cyno by itself neglects the cloaky cyno issue. By itself, I have no issue with cynos, though the instant and unlimited abilities do seem op. And with the log-off tricks, the appearance of large red presence in a system within cyno range renders intel relatively useless because the information cannot flow fast enough.

The riskless threat happens like this: Cyno fleet logs on within cyno jump range without any risk to them (they had a scout in system). Cloaky cyno ship with plate appears next to target worth more than 100 mil at the time of his choosing and without any risk before decloak. Cyno is instantly up AND target is pointed at the very instant that the cloaky cyno decloaks next to him. Warp is not an option. Fight may take out the cyno ship or another before the victim is down. Shields are down by the time any defensive force in system gets the news and makes the call to warp in or not. 1) Target is down (high dps) and aggressors have left grid before the defense fleet lands on grid. 2) Or people land on grid one at a time to defend a high ehp target and are taken out as soon as they land. 3) Or the aggressor sees local spike and a large number of ships on dscan and/or coming onto grid. The Blops fleet cloaks immediately and warps off. Again, no risk to aggressors. So many scenarios for cloaky cyno ships, and most of them are on the aggressors terms with no risk to the cyno or the fleet projecting across many constellations.

Edit: A pvp ready blops or titan bridge fleet can project 50-100 ships across constellations or regions at once, but defensive forces cannot field 50-100 pvp ready ships in EVERY system at once or kill cloaky afk camping ships in ANY system. Defensive forces can't even know that there aren't 50-100 more logged off and waiting for the signal to log-on and jump too. Even if 50-100 pvp ready ships are fielded to cover a single system, warp times still interfere AND the cloaky cyno mechanic has been successfully exploited to deny to the enemy all but 1 single system OR to ONLY operate when blues are in system. or to operate only in HS as some would prefer of their enemies so that they can then proceed to complain about level 4 missioning.