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Change Incursion Mechanics
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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2013-03-14 18:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
How many times do we need to say that war decs won't work, as there are a multitude of corps/alliances involved...


To the last post, there are more communities than that, and the ganking of charredass hasnothing to do with ISN.

ISN did offer you an agreement, and that is to not kill the last high sec moms, but when multiple high sec incursions were up, it would be a free for all on the moms.
We all agree killing the last mom is counter productive.

Yet, this is what DIN did many times (with considerable TVP help) after ISN would kill *a* high sec mom (not *the last* high sec mom).

What you call an agreement, ISN sees as a list of conditions, a demand, an ultimatum, you left nothing up to discussion.
Landogana Kelik
Otherland Complex
#82 - 2013-03-14 19:03:06 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
How many times do we need to say that war decs won't work, as there are a multitude of corps/alliances involved...
Agreed.

Verity Sovereign wrote:
To the last post, there are more communities than that, and the ganking of charredass hasnothing to do with ISN.
You do know that there if proof, right?

Verity Sovereign wrote:
ISN did offer you an agreement, and that is to not kill the last high sec moms, but when multiple high sec incursions were up, it would be a free for all on the moms.
We all agree killing the last mom is counter productive.
So everybody else gets to move when it's suitable for ISN? Sorry, doesn't work for us. We get to grind influence and then ISN comes to run at max isk. Quite laughable after seeing that ISN can't even grind the influence all the way down to 0% themselves. They need other communities to do it for them.

Verity Sovereign wrote:
Yet, this is what DIN did many times (with considerable TVP help) after ISN would kill *a* high sec mom (not *the last* high sec mom).
It's called "standing up to the bully." Deal with it.

Verity Sovereign wrote:
What you call an agreement, ISN sees as a list of conditions, a demand, an ultimatum, you left nothing up to discussion.
Each discussion has been ended by ISN. Each time ISN has said "you have nothing to offer." So the bully gets to dictate the terms? Also quite laughable.
Snatch Pinion
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2013-03-14 19:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Snatch Pinion
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Graham Nolen
Original Sinners
Pandemic Legion
#84 - 2013-03-14 19:28:09 UTC
Not by their choice snatch

not again.
Snatch Pinion
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2013-03-14 19:45:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Snatch Pinion
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Dianila Artemisa
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#86 - 2013-03-14 20:05:05 UTC
Wow, I see a lot of talking about an "angry german", but it seems everybody, including me, is angry. I suppose that 99% of the people just want to make ISK without the drama. So please, to everybody: create an agreement *TOGETHER* and stick to it, I'm pretty sure nobody likes the current situation where we have to move every second day because one side popped the mom or provoked the other side to pop it.

So, I talked about this in DIN-Flotten (DIN's public channel) and I got laughed at, something like "we don't negotiate with ISN", the longer this lasts, the more tempted I feel to get these idiots calling themselves "community leaders" together, put them in one room and don't let them out till they come with a solution (killing each other is NOT a solution btw). Please all go back to grinding and the occasional contest (because honestly, some DIN/TVP fleets can actually beat ISN when ISN comes to contest them (yes, that's at equal numbers))

tl;dr: Incursion community leadership need to get their heads out of their asses and create an agreement everybody agrees to.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#87 - 2013-03-14 20:49:56 UTC
DaiseyCutter, I agree this has to end but I don't know if it's worth the time and effort it take to try and hammer out an agreement. I know you spent a few weeks trying to get an arangement 6 months ago and it all fell apart due to no fault of yours.

Good to see your post, rare light of reason in a fuddled thread.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2013-03-14 21:11:10 UTC
Landogana Kelik wrote:
You do know that there if proof, right?


Please provide it then

Quote:
So everybody else gets to move when it's suitable for ISN? Sorry, doesn't work for us. We get to grind influence and then ISN comes to run at max isk. Quite laughable after seeing that ISN can't even grind the influence all the way down to 0% themselves. They need other communities to do it for them.

As if only TvP and DIN run incursions, and grind the meters down all the way.

Quote:
It's called "standing up to the bully." Deal with it.

You know, I started doing incursions in an Armageddon, then a drake... and lost many contests to ISN (before the incursion nerf)... I didn't consider them bullies - but a goal to aspire to.
Its a bully move to engage in a contest?
ISN never gets to kill a mom?
Seems like DIN is the bully -
"We didn't get to kill the mom we claimed, no incursions for anyone"
"We lost some contests, no incursions for anyone"
If you got ganked, its Karma, not a conspiracy.

Quote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
What you call an agreement, ISN sees as a list of conditions, a demand, an ultimatum, you left nothing up to discussion.
Each discussion has been ended by ISN. Each time ISN has said "you have nothing to offer." So the bully gets to dictate the terms? Also quite laughable.


So you try to tell ISN what to do, and then get upset when ISN asks why they should do what you say?
Jack Earthfire
Everse Defense Initiative
#89 - 2013-03-14 21:56:36 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Landogana Kelik wrote:
So everybody else gets to move when it's suitable for ISN? Sorry, doesn't work for us. We get to grind influence and then ISN comes to run at max isk. Quite laughable after seeing that ISN can't even grind the influence all the way down to 0% themselves. They need other communities to do it for them.

As if only TvP and DIN run incursions, and grind the meters down all the way.


Well ICU managed it to bring it down with one VG Fleet to 55% (approx. 4h) when DIN joined to turn it blue within an extra hour. Of course would it be faster with TVP - but it's not hardly necessary to bring up 2 HQ Fleets.
Safdrof Uta
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2013-03-15 05:28:19 UTC
Snatch Pinion wrote:
Landogana Kelik wrote:
Also quite laughable.


Well, at least you're not holding all the sites open anymore.


Lando was never holding sites open. That was (presumably) ISN pilots and pilots who had been banned by TVP.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#91 - 2013-03-15 06:45:50 UTC
Safdrof Uta wrote:
Snatch Pinion wrote:
Landogana Kelik wrote:
Also quite laughable.


Well, at least you're not holding all the sites open anymore.


Lando was never holding sites open. That was (presumably) ISN pilots and pilots who had been banned by TVP.

Yeah seems strange everytime something happens the default is ISN did it. We suffered through that as well, and petitioned CCP to change it as individuals and as a group.

I imagine a guy laughing his arse off as you blame everyone but him.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Miles Forrester
Eire Engineers
#92 - 2013-03-15 07:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Miles Forrester
Dianila Artemisa wrote:
Wow, I see a lot of talking about an "angry german", but it seems everybody, including me, is angry. I suppose that 99% of the people just want to make ISK without the drama. So please, to everybody: create an agreement *TOGETHER* and stick to it, I'm pretty sure nobody likes the current situation where we have to move every second day because one side popped the mom or provoked the other side to pop it.

So, I talked about this in DIN-Flotten (DIN's public channel) and I got laughed at, something like "we don't negotiate with ISN", the longer this lasts, the more tempted I feel to get these idiots calling themselves "community leaders" together, put them in one room and don't let them out till they come with a solution (killing each other is NOT a solution btw). Please all go back to grinding and the occasional contest (because honestly, some DIN/TVP fleets can actually beat ISN when ISN comes to contest them (yes, that's at equal numbers))

tl;dr: Incursion community leadership need to get their heads out of their asses and create an agreement everybody agrees to.

Believe me, I tried.

What was gotten out of it: 2 weeks of "peace".
Safdrof Uta
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2013-03-15 09:57:16 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Safdrof Uta wrote:
Snatch Pinion wrote:
Landogana Kelik wrote:
Also quite laughable.


Well, at least you're not holding all the sites open anymore.


Lando was never holding sites open. That was (presumably) ISN pilots and pilots who had been banned by TVP.

Yeah seems strange everytime something happens the default is ISN did it. We suffered through that as well, and petitioned CCP to change it as individuals and as a group.

I imagine a guy laughing his arse off as you blame everyone but him.



Thought you guys had the guy opening sites up for you...

I may have heard bad propaganda.

At the very least, certain pilots banned by TVP were behind some of it.
Safdrof Uta
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2013-03-15 09:59:10 UTC
Just gonna point this out though - This isn't even a "ideas" discussion anymore - it's now mainly just "ISN HATES TVP/DIN" and vice versa.
Dianila Artemisa
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#95 - 2013-03-15 12:12:54 UTC
Yeah... this is going nowhere.... It's good to see that DaisyCutter offered ISN to create a "mutual beneficial arrangement" though. I would love to see ISN (and DIN, please guys, I just want to make ISK) accept that offer and create such an arrangement so we don't even have to ask for mechanics changes.
I know people like Miles tried this with limited succes, but now it's time for the community leaders to think carefully about what's better for their pilots, let the current situation go on or set the prejudices and hatred aside and create the agreement that has been mentioned before. It's not about your ego, it's about what's good for the community (and if it actually is an ego problem, please just duel each other to settle it). Also, saying "but they did ..." is the best way to make sure nothing happens, pointing out what the other guys did is not going to help. "He who is without sins cast the first stone"

tl;dr Just read it, it's not that long.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#96 - 2013-03-15 13:48:01 UTC
Safdrof Uta wrote:
Just gonna point this out though - This isn't even a "ideas" discussion anymore - it's now mainly just "ISN HATES TVP/DIN" and vice versa.


No, no, the actual idea being proposed is an incursion subforum on the eve-o forums so they have somewhere to argue other than F&I, destroyer of threads.
Kranyoldlady
Women's cave
#97 - 2013-03-15 14:39:25 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Kodavor wrote:
turlough dominian wrote:
Not sure if a change in how incurstions work is needed,

Probably best if the groups who may or may not be causeing the issue's come to some kind of mature arrangement that not only benifits them but also the rest of the isk making comunity or other option continue killing off the high sec incurstions so no one can do them


Oh we tried . We tried many times . Each time we were offered a ready agreement made by the other side that we need to " sign " or simply told that we have to stop flying the way we want to and have flown since day one .



ISN broke every agreement we tried to have with them. Your word in repect to agreements is lower then mud TBH




http://www.rozie.info/eve/EVE_Online_Incursion_Meeting__2_parts_redacted.mp3

nuff said
Graham Nolen
Original Sinners
Pandemic Legion
#98 - 2013-03-15 15:17:00 UTC
Isn doesn't hate anyone even chardrass, I mean how could you hate someone that reminds you of Augusts gloop

not again.
Snatch Pinion
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-03-15 16:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Snatch Pinion
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Snatch Pinion
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2013-03-15 16:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Snatch Pinion
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