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Change Incursion Mechanics
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Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2013-03-14 11:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Yes, most ISN members also have at least 1 other account... forming a counter blob is simply a matter of getting people to bring boxes.

I also have more than 1 account. Mostly I take a poorly trained alt in an atron as a leaching box - the "main" on that account was trained for WHs, but I've got a handy reserve of pirate and navy ships, and its got good missile skills and OK gunnery skills...

I'm considering taking it in a SNI/CNR/Rohk (I don't think a rattler would be a very good alternative) as the box for the next mom site...
If the 40+ of us all take 1 box that deals DPS, thats 80... and a good chance at beating the blob on the mom site.
Even if the mom site is lost, the incursion is still closed.
Or I could just earn ISK from the WH... and forgo a 2nd (or maybe both) 63 mill payout from the mom.

I should add, Charadrass has said that the "time for diplomacy is over", and he has no "demands" he for ISN to comply with, and is not interested in making any agreements (spreading lies that ISN breaks agreements it makes, as if he can just declare that ISN had agreed to something it didnt)

basically, the offer to ISN is to blob as well, or lose.

The only way to blob and get paid, is to do the mothership site, where payout isn't reduced until there are more than 80 on grid.

If you're mad about incursions ending, its a direct result of Charadrass's actions
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#62 - 2013-03-14 13:59:30 UTC
Between the unexplained acronyms, the NPC corps, and the mean girls taking all the best tables at lunch, I have no idea what is going on in this thread.
Jack Earthfire
Everse Defense Initiative
#63 - 2013-03-14 15:18:32 UTC
PART 1/6

  • "One Angry German"

    • It's nice to see that no one here is informed about the DIN Construct... Since our beginning we use the concept of a free management where everyone could join whoever thinks that he/she is able to handle such responsability. If you Suck as an FC nobody will X-UP when you post for pilots... as simple as that. Only because the rest of us decided not to join this childish forum bullshit does not mean that we aren't there. While Hi-Sec PvE Incursions became so much political in the past weeks, Charadrass simply continued the Public Relations for DIN - and more or less a Crusade against the half-truth-informations spread by several Characters because he had the time to do this. The reason why he don't posted for some time now is simply based on the democratic decision of us that his kind of Public Relations showed up a way into another direction DIN wants to go. But let's stick with Charadrass for a moment:

    Goldiiee wrote:
    Are you really helping the Incursion community? As you were a member of ISN and since you took all the things you learned there and incorporated it into DIN (since ISN does not endorse Boxxing). Are you helping the community when 1/3 of the fleet is you?


    LeMorted'Authur wrote:
    Now to focus on this anrgy german and TVP. This man is hiding before TVP when actually he runs 16 accounts in sites. I am not rich enough to have sixteen incursion toons let alone the real life money to run a computer network to run sixteen clients. What kind of isk does 16 clients make you and how can he relate to me who must be an uber noob and can only run one client in an incursion. I sometimes try to ice mine but often my ice miner is full and well has been siting there for a long time doing nothing. 16 man that is alot of isk and man he must be very rich to use so much real life money to try and control eve.


    LeMorted'Authur wrote:
    Contesting happens at every other level of incursions. Why should Hq's be any different. The issue here is one angry German and his 16 box fleet. TVP stops flying with DIN and the rest of his community will fall. TVP has already began to be hard for ISN to contest. But TVP leadership is too angry at ISN to see what their community has done.

    Why let a 16 box fleet leader stop hundreds of others from making isk because he is mad and wants uncontested HQ's for his box armies.


    That is interesting. The actual max. #no. of multiboxed Characters brought up by Charadrass was 6... no idea from where you took the other 10 you associate to him. The max. #no. of another Player brought boxes into fleet was also 6 Characters.


    Goldiiee wrote:
    I apoligize if you took my statement as a personal attack, I assumed you were role playing and the similarities of Propaganda and Screaming from a soap box were in line with the persona I thought you were trying to emulate. Again I didn't not know this was your personality and I am extreemly sorry for my misjudging of your intent.


    Comparing a Player with the main Character of the Nazi Regime because of the fact that he is German unfortunately shows me sadly that even in days of the internet ignorance and untenable prejudices kept up. To talk in this case of maturity is simply a bad joke. To got wardeced again and again makes at any point everyone angry. Another Post in the Forum just showed Charadrass the bad coincidence between his Corporation -Name and -Ticker. The originally planned Ticker [ANGER] was already taken since 2004, so he deleted easily the first letter and was able to create the Corporation.


    Noble Ranger wrote:
    P.S.: Dear charadass, please, keep doing it; "Nein nein nein!", you have no idea how you endlessly amuse us. Keep playing that propaganda war, it's hilarious, just have some consideration for the thread starters please, and address their issues as well. I just have a piece of friendly advice, since an ISN pilot pointed this out to me: "This guy, it's like, when he wakes up, he must think ISN, when he takes a leak, he must think ISN, when he goes to bed, he must think ISN..." Seriously, it's can't be healthy with that kind of obsession, take a step back man :) I wouldn't want anyone to become ill just for my own entertainment.


    The fact that the most ISN-related Posts in this Thread speak about the "angry German" while Charadrass is speaking on behalf of our "Agreement Alliance" shows me actually that ISN Members are mainly obsessed by Charadrass and he not of you.
    Jack Earthfire
    Everse Defense Initiative
    #64 - 2013-03-14 15:18:55 UTC
    PART 2/6

  • Negotiations:

    • Ariak Rykard wrote:
    Perhaps the solution is simpler than having to change game mechanics.
    One party quits "contesting" everyone else.
    Everyone else won't bother to "blob" that one party.
    Simple, no?

    Contesting is within game mechanics, well guess what, so is blobbing.
    Perhaps a little respect going for both directions will work out better for everyone in the end, but i guess that's too much to hope for.


    turlough dominian wrote:
    Probably best if the groups who may or may not be causeing the issue's come to some kind of mature arrangement that not only benifits them but also the rest of the isk makeing comunity or other option continue killing off the high sec incurstions so no one can do them


    ISN about this Topic:


    Kodavor wrote:
    You never had any standing agreement with ISN .You TRIED to have it . Since we never had any agreement with anyone we could not brake anything .
    Jack Earthfire
    Everse Defense Initiative
    #65 - 2013-03-14 15:19:14 UTC
    PART 3/6

  • Point of View:

    • Kodavor wrote:
    If TVP and DIN leaders would be genuinely concerned about their ENTIRE community across all timezones ( because they run 24/7 ) then they would advise their EU timezone to improve and adjust for the times when ISN form for some hours of HQ's . What they do instead is provoke ISN to the extent of closing the last empire incursion resulting in No fleet for absolutely no one . And then you claim that is is for the benefit for the bigger community ? You have 90% of the incursion HQ time to yourselves and you STILL WANT THE LAST 10% . How greedy can you be ?


    Speaking about being greedy is a bold move by you... just to copy a Quote by you written in local just after ISN killed the Kainokai Mom on 03/12/2013 >> [19:42:46] Kodavor > No isk for ISN = No isk for anyone .<<. And if you think im alone with this opinion:


    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    I read about halfway through the second page and then just gave up. So much drama.

    "When ISN enters a site, enter a different site" sounds an awful lot like "When ISN comes in to contest your site, abandon it and go to a different one."



  • Sandbox Games... or Conflicts?

    • ShipToaster wrote:
    The problem with your argument is that there is no support for ISN outside ISN while over one hundred pilots flying for no payment shows a considerable level of support for DIN's scorched earth policy toward ISN.

    No need to change any mechanics just to suit ISN as this is a perfectly valid denial of resource by the other incursion communities to force a competitor out of an activity.


    All participating Communities are far beyond the point to claim being the good guys and to call the opposite community the bad guys. This is totally childish and makes no sense. It was truly a bold move by DIN to say that we try to bring up some fair play into hi-sec especially in a game like EVE. Same rights for all based upon working together and to have a place for as much players as possible. If this would be a calculation, you would not find a result below the line, because things already moving by its own motives. Neither ISN will give up their "born-given-right" to claim for their time of activity all iskies while justifying it with the base idea of "when a few of us don't get money that belongs to us anyways... no one will get some iskies" nor will DIN give up fighting this nonsense. Of course aren't Blobs the answer - but it works for now.
    Jack Earthfire
    Everse Defense Initiative
    #66 - 2013-03-14 15:19:32 UTC
    PART 4/6

  • Dangerous half-knowledge

    • Kodavor wrote:
    1) DIN/TVP has HQ fleets 24/7 as long as there are Incursions in Empire space .


    TVP flies 24/7 while DIN only flies EU TZ.


    Kodavor wrote:
    3) DIN/TVP have been around long enough to advise their pilots to train properly and fit their ships properly to be on par with ISN .
    4) ISN since day one schooled their pilots to fit and fly optimally .


    Does this mean everyone has to be like ISN?


    Kodavor wrote:
    5)DIN/TVP dislikes the very fact that few days a week in EU timezone they get contested in some sites . They hate it . They hate it so much that they can't even see the very fact that these contests have improved their overall fleet performance AT LEAST 4 TIMES and still claim that they are bad and ISN bullies them . They want 100% monopoly on non contested mindless grind and self regulated Kundalini kills .


    It could be so easy because there is enough place and money for everyone.


    Kodavor wrote:
    7) DIN/TVP by being greedy and wanting 100% controll over all HQ / Kundalini sites across all timezones blobs the smaller entity ( ISN ) in hopes of pressuring them into submission .


    Actually DIN has no interest in killing the Kundalini Manifest. Everybody gain ISK through completing Sites and loose money when an Incursion closes. Unfortunately game mechanics forces any group to kill the Kundalini Manifest in order go get the Concord LP's for everyone.


    Kodavor wrote:
    8) ISN unable to contests with 100+ man fleets in their 4-6 hours HQ run chooses to liberate the constellation from Sansha .
    9) DIN/TVP wanting absolutely all ended up with absolutely nothing . They had uncontested fleets 18 hours a day every day . They had hundreds of people earning their isk with no issues in all other timezones . They could have schooled their EU pilots better to be on par with ISN HQ fleets when ISN forms up to run some HQ 's . They did not . They chose to gamble and lost it all


    See the answers above.
    Jack Earthfire
    Everse Defense Initiative
    #67 - 2013-03-14 15:20:10 UTC
    PART 5/6

  • The Difference between ISN and TVP/DIN/ICU or What's worth to fight for?

    • Verity Sovereign wrote:
    One of DIN's complaints about ISN, is that they often contest weaker fleets, preventing the weaker fleets from making ISK.
    I will note that in ISN's case, ISN does it for faster ISK, whereas in DINs case, they do it to punish ISN.


    Simple Question... how is it even possible that 3 HQ fleets have no problems to fly without contesting each other, make their money and have no wait times for new spawns if ISN does not fly there? Simple Answer > there is enough Space and Money for everyone - even for ISN.

    Verity Sovereign wrote:
    Of course, it wouldn't end the drama...
    There is still the DIN/TVP community that wants to "schedule" mom kills so each group gets a turn, while other groups like ISN want mothership kills to remain free-for alls - with the only agreement being that the last high sec mothership won't get popped until it goes into withdraw, or at least when withdraws happen, its a free for all rather than taking turns.


    Verity Sovereign wrote:
    DIN doesn't like the ISN idea, and has many times previously killed all high sec moms when ISN killed a single high sec mom when there were other high sec incursions.


    First: We only closed ALL Hi-Sec Incursions when ISN popped an Incursion early (before withdrawing).
    Second: This behavior was the worst idea DIN had so far, because the reason why we closed all those Incursions never reached the targeted group of players.


    Verity Sovereign wrote:

    Odds are that DIN/TVP are going to blob when the next one spawns. Odds are that ISN is going to force it closed.
    The blob might contest and win, but the incursion will still close.


    Goldiiee wrote:
    Your actions affected everyone, and this is your legacy, you have managed to remove Incursions from high sec entirely, congrats. ISN response to your Blob tactic is the logical progression and escalation of your personal war.

    You bring Blob, ISN pops mom, next move is yours :)


    As you wish... it is fascinating to see that you complain about tactics that we admit copied from ISN in first place and now you copy the worst decision DIN made to "free" Hi-Sec Incursions of the TVP/DIN/ICU tyranny. Maybe i have a cerebral tumor and i actually dont play a space game, which would explain the picture of a group of ISN Knights trying to kill an Evil Dragon of some bad 2nd class legend story moving right now through my mind.
    Jack Earthfire
    Everse Defense Initiative
    #68 - 2013-03-14 15:20:33 UTC
    PART 6/6

  • Incursion Changes

    • Verity Sovereign wrote:
    Recent drama in the incursion communities has lead me to consider that perhaps incursion mechanics should be changed.

    I have 2 proposals:

    #1) Change payout to be a pool that is split amongst each on grid member, rather than a payout based upon some formula related to number of fleet members

    #2) Eliminate the "winner take all" mechanic of site contests, if a fleet does 51% of the damage, it gets 51% of the payout instead of 100%, while a fleet that does 49% of the damage gets 49% instead of 0%


    The Incursion Mechanics are fine... i see the Problem in the stupid grinding again and again of the same 3 sites. Besides that Teamwork in MMO's should be always better rewarded as Single Play i would gladly vote to make Incursions harder and bring in more Sites and Scenarios... e.g. a Time Run where the Sanshas attack a Planet or Station while as much as possible Players try to hold them back until the Faction Navy Fleet arrives, or now in connection with DUST/514 crossover PvE Maps/Sites. Stuff like that. In turn i personally think it's way to easy to get the payouts.



    - Jack Earthfire
    DIN Public Relations
    LeMorted'Authur
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #69 - 2013-03-14 15:44:28 UTC
    Jim Bond wrote:
    I have run with neither DIN nor ISN.

    Everyone is entitled to make isk, doesnt matter if you are running with DIN, ISN, TVP or some unknown non shiney fleet.


    You are all forgetting that there are people who do not run with the "big communities" and to be honest you are all spoiling it for eveyone else especially the "little people" who are running corp incursions, or non shiney fleets.



    All of you Grow the hell up and sort this drama queening outAttentionAttentionAttention


    If you wanna measure manhood size, go to the CCP Fanfest and whip them out there.AttentionAttention




    I dont see why you don't all just pick a HI-SEC Incursion each and go your seperate ways and leave each other alone. The days of all having to go to the same incursion holding each others hand to get the blue bar down to 0% is over.



    Nice.

    Stop letting a 16 box fleet leader control hundreds of pilots isk earning power, Stop Flying DIN and TVP stop letting DIN pilots in your fleets.

    Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have. 
    MAJOR LeeConfuzd
    Mission Ctrl.
    #70 - 2013-03-14 15:57:30 UTC
    Take a break..fly armor :)
    Verity Sovereign
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #71 - 2013-03-14 15:57:58 UTC
    Jack Earthfire wrote:
    PART 2/6

  • Negotiations:

    • Ariak Rykard wrote:
    Perhaps the solution is simpler than having to change game mechanics.
    One party quits "contesting" everyone else.
    Everyone else won't bother to "blob" that one party.
    Simple, no?

    Contesting is within game mechanics, well guess what, so is blobbing.
    Perhaps a little respect going for both directions will work out better for everyone in the end, but i guess that's too much to hope for.


    turlough dominian wrote:
    Probably best if the groups who may or may not be causeing the issue's come to some kind of mature arrangement that not only benifits them but also the rest of the isk makeing comunity or other option continue killing off the high sec incurstions so no one can do them


    ISN about this Topic:


    Kodavor wrote:
    You never had any standing agreement with ISN .You TRIED to have it . Since we never had any agreement with anyone we could not brake anything .


    I went to the DIN channel, they weren't interested in any diplomacy, their policy was simply to harass ISN until it stops running. They publicly stated a goal of eliminating ISN, not coming to an agreement with it.

    You are taking Kodavor's quote out of context. ISN was not approached with negotiations to arrive at an agreement.
    It was presented with an ultimatum, which ISN rejected (did not agree to). You tried to make ISN agree to your terms.
    You have no more right to do that than ISN has a right to make you agree it its terms.
    Verity Sovereign
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #72 - 2013-03-14 16:03:30 UTC
    Jack Earthfire wrote:
    PART 5/6

  • The Difference between ISN and TVP/DIN/ICU or What's worth to fight for?

    • Verity Sovereign wrote:
    One of DIN's complaints about ISN, is that they often contest weaker fleets, preventing the weaker fleets from making ISK.
    I will note that in ISN's case, ISN does it for faster ISK, whereas in DINs case, they do it to punish ISN.


    Simple Question... how is it even possible that 3 HQ fleets have no problems to fly without contesting each other, make their money and have no wait times for new spawns if ISN does not fly there? Simple Answer > there is enough Space and Money for everyone - even for ISN.


    Yes, ISN likes to contest, and win 3/4 of the time (just a guess-timate), to make more ISK. It doesn't target any specific group, nor is the purpose to deny anyone ISK (they are still able to earn ISK, just not as much, whereas DIN is trying to completely shut down ISK flow to ISN).

    Quote:
    First: We only closed ALL Hi-Sec Incursions when ISN popped an Incursion early (before withdrawing).
    Second: This behavior was the worst idea DIN had so far, because the reason why we closed all those Incursions never reached the targeted group of players.

    So, ISN popped a mom, and there was another incursion up (typically less than 10 jumps)... big deal...
    Popping all high sec moms is not the same as killing one mom.
    ISN is now demonstrating this...


    Quote:
    As you wish... it is fascinating to see that you complain about tactics that we admit copied from ISN in first place and now you copy the worst decision DIN made to "free" Hi-Sec Incursions of the TVP/DIN/ICU tyranny. Maybe i have a cerebral tumor and i actually dont play a space game, which would explain the picture of a group of ISN Knights trying to kill an Evil Dragon of some bad 2nd class legend story moving right now through my mind.

    "you admit" you mean you attempt to attribute to ISN.
    ISN never blobbed, I've heard this lie repeated often by DIN, its simply not true.
    LeMorted'Authur
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #73 - 2013-03-14 16:14:14 UTC  |  Edited by: LeMorted'Authur
    Jack Earthfire wrote:
    PART 1/6

  • "One Angry German"

    • It's nice to see that no one here is informed about the DIN Construct... Since our beginning we use the concept of a free management where everyone could join whoever thinks that he/she is able to handle such responsability. If you Suck as an FC nobody will X-UP when you post for pilots... as simple as that. Only because the rest of us decided not to join this childish forum bullshit does not mean that we aren't there. While Hi-Sec PvE Incursions became so much political in the past weeks, Charadrass simply continued the Public Relations for DIN - and more or less a Crusade against the half-truth-informations spread by several Characters because he had the time to do this. The reason why he don't posted for some time now is simply based on the democratic decision of us that his kind of Public Relations showed up a way into another direction DIN wants to go. But let's stick with Charadrass for a moment:


    That is interesting. The actual max. #no. of multiboxed Characters brought up by Charadrass was 6... no idea from where you took the other 10 you associate to him. The max. #no. of another Player brought boxes into fleet was also 6 Characters.
    .


    I may be misinformed about DIN, I mean running 6 characters is so much better than 16. But the fact still remains that DIN is a mutlibox community that runs multiples of accounts in HQ's for the benefit of a few real life rich people who can afford to run large computer networks and buy multiple toons for incursions. What about CUBE? he has 16 such accounts and everyone has seen him moving. Are you CUBE?

    I am sorry but if DIN allows pilots to fly where ever they want then why did you banned me from your channel for taking out my first MOM with ISN. TVP self-serving directors need to dump DIN and not allow them to pick from their channel. Because they do not see how great their community is and how DIN only hurts their and other communities' goals. Lando why are you being so dumb letting these angry germans destroy incursions. You contested new pilots in VG's, its how i got my first shiny.

    Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have. 
    LeMorted'Authur
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #74 - 2013-03-14 16:44:55 UTC
    LeMorted'Authur wrote:
    Jack Earthfire wrote:
    PART 1/6

  • "One Angry German"

    • It's nice to see that no one here is informed about the DIN Construct... Since our beginning we use the concept of a free management where everyone could join whoever thinks that he/she is able to handle such responsability. If you Suck as an FC nobody will X-UP when you post for pilots... as simple as that. Only because the rest of us decided not to join this childish forum bullshit does not mean that we aren't there. While Hi-Sec PvE Incursions became so much political in the past weeks, Charadrass simply continued the Public Relations for DIN - and more or less a Crusade against the half-truth-informations spread by several Characters because he had the time to do this. The reason why he don't posted for some time now is simply based on the democratic decision of us that his kind of Public Relations showed up a way into another direction DIN wants to go. But let's stick with Charadrass for a moment:


    That is interesting. The actual max. #no. of multiboxed Characters brought up by Charadrass was 6... no idea from where you took the other 10 you associate to him. The max. #no. of another Player brought boxes into fleet was also 6 Characters.
    .


    I may be misinformed about DIN, I mean running 6 characters is so much better than 16. But the fact still remains that DIN is a mutlibox community that runs multiples of accounts in HQ's for the benefit of a few real life rich people who can afford to run large computer networks and buy multiple toons for incursions. What about CUBE? he has 16 such accounts and everyone has seen him moving. Are you CUBE?

    I am sorry but if DIN allows pilots to fly where ever they want then why did you banned me from your channel for taking out my first MOM with ISN. TVP self-serving directors need to dump DIN and not allow them to pick from their channel. Because they do not see how great their community is and how DIN only hurts their and other communities' goals. Lando why are you being so dumb letting these angry germans destroy incursions. You contested new pilots in VG's, its how i got my first shiny.


    If you are a new pilot fly Lv6-shields or Born-Ara Mob-armor, they are great places to fly earn isk and learn.

    Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have. 
    Verity Sovereign
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #75 - 2013-03-14 16:46:24 UTC
    Did you just quote yourself? Ugh
    Did you mean to hit the edit button Blink ?
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #76 - 2013-03-14 16:49:11 UTC
    AHahahahahahaha

    This ******* made my day

    Bears gona bear.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    LeMorted'Authur
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #77 - 2013-03-14 16:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: LeMorted'Authur
    h

    Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have. 
    Graham Nolen
    Original Sinners
    Pandemic Legion
    #78 - 2013-03-14 18:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Graham Nolen
    This whole thread makes my head hurt and reminds me of old school Everquest raid zone rotation drama. Which got so bad at one point Sony started dictating a schedule of who could kill what and when.

    not again.
    Saul Elsyn
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #79 - 2013-03-14 18:36:54 UTC
    Oh come on, just War Dec each other over rights to incursions... that's why CCP has hi-sec war decs!
    DaiseyCutter
    Illusory Superiority
    #80 - 2013-03-14 18:39:09 UTC
    Perhaps a brief history lesson will help since nothing is wrong with the game mechanics. This is expected meta gaming taking place b/t communities with different play styles--Welcome to Eve.

    The first time this happened there were only 2 main incursion communities BTL (shields) and TDF (armor). It got to the point where Incursions didn't last a full day as first person that could form a mom fleet once it spawned took it down. You had to race to the incursion when you noticed it spawn to hopefully fly for a few hours then nothing. Those 2 communities recognized that their pilots were all being punished for the egos of a few and forged an agreement which provided for a rotation of 1 mom each and then a "contested" mom and it was agreed for the benefit of all to wait until the incursion went into "withdrawal."

    Now, there are 2 armor communities and 5 shield communities that are capable of running the Kundalini and competition was and is inevitable. However, seeing history repeat itself the communities (save ISN) all agreed to work together to benefit all of our pilots and stop the early takedowns. TDF/Born Ara on the armor side and DIN, ICU, TVP, and GIP on the shield side. We have a place where leaders of the various communities can work out their differences and coordinate among each other to minimize the natural tension that ensues when there are 4 HQ fleets in one system. ISN was invited to be a part of this agreement and the offer was made along with an offer to renegotiate if necessary to bring them on side. ISN's leadership declined as cooperation does not define their play-style (which is perfectly fine btw) I personally find ISN's leadership to be nice people and enjoy my discussions with them.

    Things have unfortunately escalated again due to the ganking of a DIN leader so the shield communities that are party to the agreement are working together against ISN. This need not be the case. We again offer an opportunity for ISN to go their own way if they wish and will be happy to coordinate that with them as a group to minimize conflict and to provide all incursion pilots the maximum opportunity to fly. Better yet, join with us the other incursion communities in a mutually beneficial arrangement. Either way we will continue to work with those who partner with us.

    Hoping for sanity to prevail.
    DC
    The Valhalla Project