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Hot drops and gate camps = lame pvp.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#161 - 2013-02-06 11:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Whitehound wrote:

It is then no surprise when smartbombs have become one of the top damage dealers in such fights. What happened to falloff, optimal range and tracking of turrets, the range of missiles, etc.? All these attributes have no meaning at this point.


I beg your pardon, but range and tracking are hugely important in large battles.

EDIT: The figure for smartbomb damage is misleading, as statistics taken out of context so often are. The total number of hitpoints inflicted is indeed very high, but that doesn't necessarily translate well into ships killed - indeed, I'd be prepared to bet that the majority (or a large minority) of that smartbomb damage was done to ships on the same side as the smartbomber.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Whitehound
#162 - 2013-02-06 11:23:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Whitehound wrote:

It is then no surprise when smartbombs have become one of the top damage dealers in such fights. What happened to falloff, optimal range and tracking of turrets, the range of missiles, etc.? All these attributes have no meaning at this point.


I beg your pardon, but range and tracking are hugely important in large battles.

Really? And what did I write?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#163 - 2013-02-06 11:28:49 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Whitehound wrote:

It is then no surprise when smartbombs have become one of the top damage dealers in such fights. What happened to falloff, optimal range and tracking of turrets, the range of missiles, etc.? All these attributes have no meaning at this point.


I beg your pardon, but range and tracking are hugely important in large battles.

Really? And what did I write?


That they had no meaning. They are in fact extremely meaningful.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Whitehound
#164 - 2013-02-06 11:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Malcanis wrote:
That they had no meaning. They are in fact extremely meaningful.

So you agree with me. Good.

Let me bring you up to speed so you do not have to feel left out...

What I said is that according to the devblog, if you had cared to follow the link, do smartbombs make the most damage in such blob fights and that it makes other attributes meaningless.

You get this now?

Edit:
I see your edit... Stop arguing facts off the table and to replace them with dumb bets. Damage is damage and to whom applied does not matter. It damages the ships and fighters of everyone and smartbombs are number one in this. This damage needs to be repaired or it will lead to the loss of a ship - anyone's ship.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound
#165 - 2013-02-06 12:07:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
And just because I can will I compare the idea of an anti-cyno ship or an anti-cyno bubble to warp bubbles.

First you need to look at what warp bubbles do. They are a tool to keep a fight together and stop everyone from warping out of a fight. It is a tool that has to be brought into place and it is not something that is given by default. It is a tactical element and everyone, large or small, can use it.

An anti-cyno bubble works more or less in the opposite way. It can help to drive a fight apart and to stop everyone from jumping directly into a fight. It would be just another tool that has to be brought into place. It would be another tactical element for everyone.

Capitals were meant not be be flown solo, but when one can fit a cyno onto a capital can they pretty much work alone until reinforcements are needed. It is then impossible for a small gang of sub-cap ships to do anything about it, unless they had an anti-cyno tool. It could be used to catch solo capitals more easily and as such would it be a great tool for small gangs as well as a tactical tool for large scale blob fights.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitethorn Reyhold
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2013-03-14 05:34:58 UTC
Even as a total noob, I can tell already the game runs completely on what in other games would be considered griefing. Then again, in a way that makes the PVP more "realistic" than any other game out there. Rather like the real world, it is about setting up fights where the other person doesn't have a chance.

Frankly even corporation wars are about griefing, ultimately that is near all that is done in the game. Almost all the resources in the game are harvested to fuel corporate wars, I am sure there are a few who just want to make loads of ISK (or just plain like the PvE missions and nothing else), but really we all know it is about the space battles.

The fun I imagine is in the meta game, the set ups and social relations between players. Still I will probably give this game a miss after my first month. I have real world social relationships and meta planning to do. So understand why someone might like the game, but also get why many do not.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#167 - 2013-03-14 05:37:33 UTC
stop being a bad player and you won't die to these "lame PvPers"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#168 - 2013-03-14 08:15:00 UTC
Whitethorn Reyhold wrote:
Even as a total noob, I can tell already the game runs completely on what in other games would be considered griefing. Then again, in a way that makes the PVP more "realistic" than any other game out there. Rather like the real world, it is about setting up fights where the other person doesn't have a chance.


Because in other games there is no real loss. There's nothing at risk. In other games, if you get killed, worse case scenario is you have to visit Ye Olde Armor Repair Shoppe to fix damage to your gear after you respawn. Most games, you don't even have to do that anymore...just respawn and re-enter the fray. In Eve, when your ship blows up, it's gone forever, and that loss can be tied to a real time and money value.

The only thing worse in recent memory were the days of Jedi permanent death in the early days of SWG, where players lost their entire character if killed. That didn't last long, though, but it was high times to be a bounty hunter. Nothing was more precious than the tears of a dead Jedi.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

Le Badass
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2013-03-14 08:55:30 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:

Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region.


If you are crying this much over gatecamps...i cant image the tsunami of tears that will pour from you when you need to MWD from system to system...or better yet, have the miserable experience of capdrain warp after capdrain warp for 3 hours to get to a next door system.


While I don't believe gates will ever disappear, and it doesn't ruin my day that we have this mechanic, I don't see how it can possibly be so hard to imagine you opening your starmap, right click on a star in range of your jump drive and say warp to.
You could even have a little submenu where you can choose celestial, much like when you want to warp to a moon at a certain planet.
Voila, no need to MWD for hours, use magic portals or other obvious troll-suggestions and now it's suddenly easy to get around and very hard to camp bottlenecks.
Most of the time, however, you could probably catch lazy/stupid people who just default jump to the sun.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#170 - 2013-03-14 10:54:51 UTC
I'll just repeat this verbatim here:

Jump drives in every ship, no cyno needed.

That's right, make every ship jump capable. Redo fuel costs from current flat rates to ((ship mass x distance traveled)/fuel conservation skill). So frigates could jump for very little fuel (important considering their small cargo bays) while larger ships would suck more fuel (but they can hold it).

Travel now comes in three flavors:
1) Stargate. As before.
2) Cyno jump. As before.
3) Unguided Jump. New! Shiny! Without a cyno beacon the jumping ship arrives (random) 10 to 100 AUs from the star in a completely random direction. Might want to move before you get scanned down.


Think for even one minute what the end of gate camping would do to EvE. Your reaction will either be white-faced heart attack or spontaneous orgasm.

Want to move a fleet into a system? Fine. Form up a fleet and jump it right in there. People want to defend a POS? Then defend the dang POS, not some gate fifteen jumps away. Want to scam a -10.0 pirate into hisec? Blip in, blip out. Want to sneak your Venture past the two douchebags running combat bots on their Falcons 23/7? Blip in, blip out. Want to roam nullsec looking for "gudfites" and thumb your nose at whoever claims sov on the system? Go for it, nothing is going to stop except that fight you went in looking for.

FW, sov battles, piracy, smuggling... everything becomes a true game of cat & mouse and hit & run. And everyone can get in on it.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Jensaro Koraka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#171 - 2013-03-14 11:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jensaro Koraka
Karl Hobb wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:
everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards!

If you're docking up because of killboards I'd say you're in a terrible, terrible organization. I mean, my corp is as ****** as they come but at least our strategy is along the lines of "**** it, might as well". If my CEO started worrying about our killboards I'd go over to his house, tell him to **** off, and drink all his whiskey.

And whining about gatecamps is so passe. Get some friends and HTFU.

I agree. The problem sounds like their corp. My corp tries not to lose, of course, but I've never heard anyone whining about killboards. We lose ships all the time doing stuff we knew would probably get us killed.

Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Think for even one minute what the end of gate camping would do to EvE. Your reaction will either be white-faced heart attack or spontaneous orgasm.

I like PvP so i'm going to go with white-faced heart attack. We don't gate camp, but the majority of our PvP does happen near gates. The only people this wouldn't kill PvP for are the FW crowd.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#172 - 2013-03-14 11:48:09 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:

So... We should just introduce a new ship. A Death-Star that was designed with no exploitable vulnerabilities (stupid vader!) and can warp around the galaxy annihilating planets and fleets at will.


Well, only 99.9% invulnerable. theres always a small chance that a 1 man fighter might skim across a trench and shoot a torpedo down a hole and blow it all up. I know what youre thinking...whoa...that sounds like a major design flaw. But it was really just an aesthetic choice by the architect, and its only 2 meters across..which in reality is no bigger than a whomprat, so itll probably be ok.


Death Star, aka the Bismarck. They clearly should've designed a ship without a rudder.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#173 - 2013-03-14 11:50:01 UTC
Incoming buff Nag, More 'Lame' HotDrops inc

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#174 - 2013-03-14 11:51:31 UTC
My view of problem. All tactical objectives requires huge ammount of STATIC time of a lot of people . Be it shooting POS, or sov related structures.

That means that there is no way to force enemies to react and engage a small fleet, because a small fleet cannot do anythign really dangerous. That leaves 2 optiosn for pvp, the large strategical ops called BLOBS and gate gamps or hot drop traps.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#175 - 2013-03-14 12:37:22 UTC
its really quite simple, the percentage of risk-adverse players in eve has tipped meaning that those willing to engage in pvp are finding it harder and harder to find somebody to fight with.

And i mean properly fight, not gate campers killing badgers and thinking its pvp. Not wormholers sitting with 30 t3's waiting to snag a 3 man gang, thats not pvp either. Im talking about people who are willing to take a risk, and commit to a 50/50 fight. Its INCREDIBLY rare to find people up for that, and most when offered it will find a reason to turn it down.

Sadly its now even reaching a point where fights look too good to be true, you have to expect a cyno.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#176 - 2013-03-14 12:59:04 UTC
Nova Satar wrote:
Im talking about people who are willing to take a risk, and commit to a 50/50 fight. Its INCREDIBLY rare to find people up for that, and most when offered it will find a reason to turn it down.


If you want fair 1 vs. 1 fights, go do factional warfare or join rvb, that's as fair as things get in eve. Unless you are into solo pvp, don't whine about gate camps and hot drops, i have never seen a small gang not trying to 5v1 on a gate when they got the chance, which is the same **** on a small scale.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Emily Florence Nightingale
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2013-03-14 12:59:26 UTC
Jealousy Asques wrote:
I generally love pvp games, the more hardcore the better, but I've lost interest in EVE... The extent of nullsec pvp is pretty much what the title says. Hot drops as far as I'm concerned are pretty much game breaking, a very cheesy, lame and over-used tactic. The hot droppers can pick their fights for very little risk and it almost always results in one sided battles. How do they contribute to epic space battles, what this game should be about? They don't. In intermediate/newb friendly corps one hot dropper capable ship shows up in your system and everyone is told to dock up for safety. Can't risk your precious kill boards! How fun is that? It's not!

At the very least there should be a limit on how much mass or the number of ships that can hot drop through one cyno field (3-4 cruisers, 2 battleships/ 1 carrier maybe at most), and they should not be able to escape by the same method (or log out for that matter) for a very long time.

Hisec war-dec pvp where hotdrops can't happen is alot more fun and fair, but very few people do it. Established pirate corps & pros do it, and other intermediate corps run and hide from it.

Even in hisec though pvp is largely about gate camps. I don't see them as quite as lame as hot-dropping, but it's still pretty weak, and boring 95% of the time if you're the one doing it. I don't know what would have to change to fix this dynamic but I think the game would benefit from some mechanic that reduced the need to camp gates, and the effectiveness of it. Right now the game feels more like a bunch of narrow hallways and bottlenecks rather than deep space.

Imo jumpgates should be done away with entirely except for possibly jumping from region to region. With bottlenecks removed, scanning could possibly be made more effective and accessible to everyone (not just a dedicated scanning ship, though those should still have an advantage) to make it easier to find fights. IE people shouldnt have to give up a hardpoint to be able to scan people down.

I certainly don't know everything, and maybe these are bad ideas, but I do know that the title of my thread sums up the game for me.


My word...

And the Darwin award for "Not Having enough Intellegence to Avoid being ganked using the wealth of existing resources already available" goes too....

I read thru your post and everything you mentioned has a counter, if you invest just a liitle more time in the game a less time whining
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#178 - 2013-03-15 00:54:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Jealousy, maybe you could put rails on your ratter and stay aligned. Or hell, stick with the blasters and put a couple of warp core stabs on, then kite the rats out of the rocks a bit so you don't get hung up. I ratted with smartbombs and wcstabs for a while =-) Hmm, I may have to try that again, its been a while.

Also fleet up with all the neutrals in system, if they wont fleet or are in a fleet assume they are hostile and that you are being hunted. Maybe scan them down and see whats up, bring a ship scanner and check for cyno's. Fleet up with the reds, they might bite and even if they don't you get to find out if they are in fleet or not. Get on intel and fleet up with other local ratters, make sure everyone is in PvP capable ships. Check again with intel or have one of your officers check to see if we have a cyno team up, or can get one together. See if there's a friendly bomber wing in the area or put one together. Camp your own gates, I often throw a bubble up and camp when there's an active red in sys. If they are AFK or a neutral I cant confirm, I go next door and see if the Apoc guys have a free site.

I looked at your KM and its funny, we had a similar one last week, except no cyno and only one bomber; he waited until the target was deep into an anom and then opened up. With the rats and the bombs our guy went down, the same thing could have happened to you. They didn't need to cyno in a fleet of bombers, one guy did 50% of the damage and only 3 or 4 others did any at all. The DPS part of the fight is always going to be skewed one way or the other, the challenge is all in the setup.

Null sec is meant to simulate a warzone, I think it does that pretty well. And its a lot of fun to play the game of cat and mouse.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2013-03-15 01:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Think of it this way. When you hunt an animal, you have to put in a lot of energy just to find it, let alone actually kill it. Or you could try trapping the animal.

Like the majority of things in EVE, gatecamps can be countered. You can either be fast, strong, or stealthy when dealing with them.

Also, gatecamps can actually lead to pretty impressive battles. If two solo pilots or small gangs that know what they are doing gatecamp each other, then you can get into a pretty fastpaced skirmish. If everyone starts calling in their friends, and their friends friends, then you got a massive fleet battle on your hands.

While gatecamping isn't the best tactic in EVE, it's acceptable and has it's place. I would like to see more mechanics in the game that encourage other forms of finding fights, but gatecamping is alright . If you are getting hotdropped without back up of your own and getting insta popped on gatecamps, you are doing something wrong.

Seriously. After spending a little time in nullsec, you should start to assume that EVERY gate is camped. With that mindset you will find yourself getting killed less often.

I'm no expert on PVP, I actually suck quite a bit at the moment, but I do know a little basic logic. When I go into null, I make sure I prepare for gatecamps, because nullsec=gate camps. As a rule of thumb, if you don't know, as in being 100% positive that there isn't a gatecamp on the other side and you don't have a way to GTFO or blast your way through, (the former is generally better) then don't jump. Simple logic.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2013-03-15 01:51:18 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Think of it this way. When you hunt an animal, you have to put in a lot of energy just to find it, let alone actually kill it. Or you could try trapping the animal.

Like the majority of things in EVE, gatecamps can be countered. You can either be fast, strong, or stealthy when dealing with them.

Also, gatecamps can actually lead to pretty impressive battles. If two solo pilots or small gangs that know what they are doing gatecamp each other, then you can get into a pretty fastpaced skirmish. If everyone starts calling in their friends, and their friends friends, then you got a massive fleet battle on your hands.

While gatecamping isn't the best tactic in EVE, it's acceptable and has it's place. I would like to see more mechanics in the game that encourage other forms of finding fights, but gatecamping is alright . If you are getting hotdropped without back up of your own and getting insta popped on gatecamps, you are doing something wrong.

Seriously. After spending a little time in nullsec, you should start to assume that EVERY gate is camped. With that mindset you will find yourself getting killed less often.

I'm no expert on PVP, I actually suck quite a bit at the moment, but I do know a little basic logic. When I go into null, I make sure I prepare for gatecamps, because nullsec=gate camps. As a rule of thumb, if you don't know, as in being 100% positive that there isn't a gatecamp on the other side and you don't have a way to GTFO or blast your way through, (the former is generally better) then don't jump. Simple logic.


The best start to an epic fight is to accidentally jump your titan into enemy space while attempting a make a jump bridge and start a giant fight involving over 700 corps Big smile

Don't think that's ever happened though Straight

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny