Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Wow, its been interesting reading for the last few days.

does a semi afk cloaker stop my game? NO.
Wining about it? No.

Is cloaking and perfect local intel broken? Yes.

Cloaking works, but it has a huge ability to be abused. Its the abuse that cuases, I think all this hostility.

*The perfect intel of local*

semi afk Cloaks gain more than they lose from the "perfect intel of local".
Why? Because you don't spend days scaning down a system, looking for pve operations. You know instantly on jump in if its a target rich environment. So all of you that want local gone, go for it, I doubt many of you would spend the time to scan each and ever system you come across for suitably populated systems engage. And if you do, your most likely a WH scout for various WH living alliances already.

Semi afk cloak is an economic warfare tool, it isn't a combat tool, so, having that ":perfect intel of local": aids in this play style.
And honesly, they would not loose much at all if the afk cloaker had to log out and back in when they where at the keyboard. They could and would still terrorize those same "risk adverse" players. Some do it now, log off for 10 min or so, and come back, espeicaly if they find Cans / loot they know people will want to try and collect.

So fixing cloaking would not hamper them. It would just stop abuse, and like almost everything else in eve would mean they would have to be at the keyboard to play. (its probably way easier to bot an afk cloak than anything else, not being a botter I wouldn't know)

Having Black ops, covert ops, or recon ships an abilty to hunt down / look for cloaked ships?
A darn good idea. Why? Because even in real life, if your in an observation post, or a recon patrol and another patrol spots you / finds you, or even finds evidence of you in the area...

They step up combat patrols, they engage you if your able to be brought into combat.
Currenly the cloaked ship cant be found. The only time a cloak is at risk is when they choose to interact with the eve universe, no other ship or play style has that choice. Not unless they log out, so fixing the issue so its less likely to be abused and to perhaps cuase people to log in and out more isn't a bad fix. It levels the playing field.

Should finding a cloaked ship be instant? Absolutly not.
One skilled person can cuase a huge amount of disarray. BUT you can find them, both with skill and if they make a mistake.
Just like if the hunters make a mistake the Cloak can escape.

The common threat between the semi afk cloak and the real covert ops pilot is that they can call on Black ops or cyno in a fleet.

It is this looming threat that the risk adverse want to counter, and honestly is what cuases the abuse, because that threat is possible without an active player behind the keyboard. The afk cloaker is using the broken mechanic of cloak to highten there effectiveness without being at the computer, again, no other ship or play style does this. (I cant think of one)

So before you say yet another cloak hating null bear or anthing else. Consdier.
A number of you have stated that even though you love flying cloaked ships, you see the abuse and do consider it less of a preferred play style.

To the bears that want to live in Null sec? Spend the time to learn how to deal with the cloaked ships.

And to those not ":risk adverse" it will provide a way to engage the other player.

see next post for *Suggested Fix*

No. The misunderstanding of the core issue is why this thread never goes away.

The semi afk cloak left in game denies ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Somebody being cloaked in local (maybe afk, maybe not) does not stop people from being able to undock, it does not stop people being able to rat or mine or do PI or anything. All that is stopping people from doing those things is their own fear of somebody shooting at them.

There is nothing stopping a corp member from shooting them. There is nothing stopping an alliance mate from shooting them. There is nothing stopping a blue alliance member from shooting them. Sure, those people tend not to (with hilarious exceptions), but the only reason a neut/red being in local paralyses active players is that neuts/reds are likely to shoot them.

EVE Online is a game about the construction and destruction of ships, and nullsec is one of the places where the game places no restrictions on players shooting other players. If you don't like that freedom, then perhaps nullsec is not the right place for your playstyle.

As for people like the OP saying that afk cloaking is OP (wow, same acronym, entirely different meaning), and that they'll change people's minds by doing it to them, I say this: DO IT. Go ahead, give it a go. See just how easy it is and how much carnage you can cause to somebody else without risk to yourself. Please, I seriously, unironically, BEG you to give it a go for yourself. If everybody who thinks it's OP actually tries it out, perhaps these threads could stop happening.

Long story short, the core issue is that there is no issue with afk cloaking.

This.

Now, I am willing to discuss balanced changes.

For those to actually be balanced, it must be accepted that cloaking and local are currently balancing each other, and are mutually broken regarding each other.

This means they would both need to change.

I personally have posted versions where local has things added to it, restoring chat to a social feature.
Versions where it is keeping a partial intel aspect, but leaving out docked, cloaked and POS shielded ships.
These could also be combined.

The essential aspect is that use for reliable means of knowing a cloaked pilot is present get's neutered.
Cloaking as well as cloaking awareness should take effort.

I also detailed a means to hunt cloaks, which is based off of current cloaking mechanics themselves.
You can't get much more balanced than a mirror image, plus the majority of skills and hardware are already in the game.

Whilst they are cloaked and AFK, what game mechanic are they using to interact with you?

Good god, if you can't coordinate with your corp/alliance mates to deal with one flimsy cloaky ship, and the possibility that they might just have a cyno fitted, how would you ever handle the coordination required to deal with a proper invasion.

Work in groups, engineer a way to deal with the possible threat, show them that you can deal with them and they won't bother.

Honestly, I think there needs to be a new rule on the forums that anybody complaining about how unfair/OP AFK cloaking is has to actually go and do it themselves (and prove that they have actually engaged a target with a killmail). Note: I have been on both ends of AFK cloaking, many times, and both are a lot of fun.

Too hard counter for stealth bombers in large fleet fights. Next!

I have the perfect solution for afk cloakers in NS: any ships which use the cloaked ship as a warp in/jump in point can only shoot flares, fireworks and flowers for 30 minutes after arriving!! That makes NS safer for the null bears!! :)

Posting to say there is still no problem so there is no solution needed.

The only problem is, we can't fix cloak until we fix local, as cloak is a DIRECT counter to local. If you give a counter to cloak then cloak will be way underpowered cause there is already a PERFECT counter, plus this won't fix anything as it still possible to make a unprobable fit that doesn't use cloak at all, and before you know it, people will be whining that they want to beable to find everyone instantly with probes. If you want to fix cloak you first need to fix the root of the problem and EVERY SINGLE ANTI-CLOAK thread people will always agree, the root of the problem is not cloak itself, but the reason why cloak was created, and that reason is local.

Not only this. But people docked in station also are present. They could launch an attack anytime. They pose a threat to me. They could undock anytime with any ship and no way to counter this and no way to know if they're there or afk.

Some special tool to force undock/prevent docking is really needed. Let's open a new thread every day with all our fake accounts asking for this.

Thank you for the good replys, they are appreciated.

What is the point of being afk and cloaked?

To affect other peoples play, and not on a one vs one, or gang vs gang.,
One person who could be or normaly ISNT at the keyboard affecting many other players game, with no threat to themselves.
The are by loging into the game and being AFK are interacting with the game, but not in a active, personal way. They are abusing the game code.

Consider:

If I sat afk at a gate anywhere in the game, some player would come and shoot me.
If I was afk in a wh and someone scaned me down, they would shoot me.
If I sat in an afk cloak and choose to attack someone in hi sec the ship would get concorded.

If I sit afk in a station, you can dock up and find me in the station, no threat to you, and if I become active, you only have to watch one spot in space to find that I have become active, and get a chance to shoot at me becuae I have become active.
From within a station I can not launch a secret attack, I can not choose my own "perfect time" to act. You as an opposing player get an even playing field.

I have a pirate friend, very good at his play style, He even intimidates the local miners into selling to his buy orders because he activly threatens the lowsec system, oddly enough he also protects them from other pirates,, its his system..lol.
Very much like the old style Rober Baron of the middle ages.

So, I would say EVE is predomenitly ment to be an ACTIVELY played game.
Consider the changes that CCP has made to loot tables, compression of minerals, NPC AI, ect.
Its all geared to having players more involved in the game.

Also the changes are very much geared to making sure Null sec is made into an industrial base, and not just an isk sink for blink, exploit or hi sec market barons to drop isk into the market, buy up guns or mins, and ship them down to null, to then be turned into the larger ships that can only be built out in null. All that has been steadily changing over the last few years.

So While Cloaking may not be considered broken, or the counter to perfect intel of local.
And as I mentioned, AFK cloaking is benifited by the "perfect intel of local", if it wasn't there in local, the player behind the screen would have to interact with the game, scan, hunt, and prepare attacks, and they could not do that AFK, they would be an active player in EVE.

So, take away local in deeper null sec, but my fix could still stand, it provides a function even if afk cloaking wasn't an issue.
What it does do with AFK player is provide a way for Players in game to deal with someone who is abusing the game code. Not leaving it up to CCP to police.

The idea that a person can affect a game while not actively in it, to the extent that they reduce others enjoyment of play is wrong.


*Greifing*
Should players be able to 'Greif"?
Due to the nature of EVE and the sandbox, YES.
(I don't myself, but it is an accepted part of the game, partly what makes EVE, EVE)
The semi afk cloak is immune to the very foundation of Eve, Causality. The butterfly effect.
Because they are immune to the system no mater how many people respond; unitl they choose to interact with eve.
That out weights anything the perfect intel of local provides.

Someone not at the keyboard, or botting an account should not have the abitity to affect active players in EVE; without the players themselves being able to interact and resolve the issue. Why? because people not afk, not boting have limited time to relax and enjoy eve, the absent player in both boting and afk cloak are not there, They are getting joy out of eve by not truly participating. Even an AFK market player has a 3 month time limit on their market oders, and lol, I don't know one Market player that doesn't spend hours and hours each week pouring over their market details.
So no where in eve is afk play encouraged.

Flying a cloak actively, loging in and out of eve over 15 min play periods and such, could easily accomplish the same level of fear or an even more effective presence. So by giving active players a way to hunt down the inattentive cloak doesn't change the game structure of cloak and its nature to counter "risk evasive" play.
Its about solving the abuse, and the exploit of game code.

So while the Fear of undocking is real for "risk adverse" players, it should be done by an active player, not a bot, or afk player.
CCP has Incursions to provide "risk adverse" players with a in game mechanic that they can balance as the nature and design of eve requires.

They don't need afk people to do that for them, after all, they arnt playing EVE why should they affect or benifit?

But a set of fighters, designed and placed in game would provide a fix for this, provide more active play options for those actualy in EVE and playing. And if CCP does decide to take out the ":perfect intel": of local, they would provide a player managed way to gather that same intel.

And buidnig up, protecting and making a home in Null sec is a primary goal in eve. Just like the fight to claim "Good Space" is.
So dealing with the semi afk cloak in a proactive, active player way only enhances EVE, and does not take anything away from people who actualy play the game. It just makes dealing with the others possible for those actualy in the game.