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Why complain about High Sec but not SOV mechanics? An honest look at null bears.

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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#261 - 2013-03-12 20:29:18 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
I've seen it framed as "make it possible to avoid CONCORD" or heck, even "get rid of CONCORD". That is a lot different than, say, a 25% minimum loss on high sec refine.


This is the equivalent of Fox News' "Some people say" trope. This tactic is used so that people can show the illusion of a widely held opinion without having to provide a source. It's lazy. Try again, Tarawa.



What?

I was simply pointing out that there are many proposed changes that would be called "nerf" but are not the same thing. One word with many meanings... That is the definition of ambiguous. (which many people confuse with vague, but they are not synonymous.)

Are you saying that there are not people, in various threads, calling for major game mechanic changes, and labeling it as "nerf high sec"? Because, if you really want, I'm sure I can find dozens pretty quickly.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#262 - 2013-03-12 20:30:35 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
When you recruit practically everyone in nullsec, to deliberately create a situation where there is nothing to do but shoot structures, you lose the right to call for nerfs in other areas.

As the saying goes, you reap what you sow. Have fun trying to keep your F1 lemmings entertained.


So basically what you are saying is that the people who generate the most press and word of mouth for this game should never, ever have a say in how to better the game. Gotcha.

I keep seeing these arguments in my forays into extremism in my country.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Jireel
Perkone
Caldari State
#263 - 2013-03-12 20:32:30 UTC
Just wanting to point out that being bored with highsec and having no interest in nullsec, there is still the third option avaliable, that is to say hello to sleepers.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#264 - 2013-03-12 20:33:46 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
When you recruit practically everyone in nullsec, to deliberately create a situation where there is nothing to do but shoot structures, you lose the right to call for nerfs in other areas.

As the saying goes, you reap what you sow. Have fun trying to keep your F1 lemmings entertained.


So basically what you are saying is that the people who generate the most press and word of mouth for this game should never, ever have a say in how to better the game. Gotcha.

I keep seeing these arguments in my forays into extremism in my country.



I think that a vocal minority of hard core players can misrepresent the opinion of the lager, more casual play style, majority.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#265 - 2013-03-12 20:35:14 UTC
Jireel wrote:
Just wanting to point out that being bored with highsec and having no interest in nullsec, there is still the third option avaliable, that is to say hello to sleepers.


Hmmm. I'd consider that a 5th option after low sec faction warfare and low sec piracy.
Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#266 - 2013-03-12 20:48:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Would you care to dispute Mr Stark's figures with your own? Or do you prefer to just shout loudly and hope everyone confuses noise with conviction?


You're doing a fine job at it, CSM Candidate Malcanis. I can't decide whether you're just a talking head, or if you believe that your ideas are actually feasible. In either case, you and your null bear entourage represent the biggest threat to this game as far as this voter is concerned.

Fact: Null sec is largely void of NPC control and interaction. It is supposed to be a dangerous final frontier controlled by the players who live there.

Fact: A large majority of the players (at least, according to the forums) who live in null are not happy about the current state of affairs.

Malcanis' solution = Make null more like hi-sec, then nerf hi-sec.

I have zero vested interest in what happens in null sec, therefore, it can burn to the ground for all I care. But from what I can tell, the players who live there have done a fine job of ruining it already and now want to spread their power and influence to other areas of space. Isn't life in null supposed to be difficult? Isn't cutting the cord off from NPCs supposed to be what it's all about?

It must be, because every time one of these threads is posted, the opposition turns out in force to try to convince the rest of us how bad they really have it. I look at maps and see large blocks of space owned by major alliances who must be bored to tears, because instead of running their empires, they're whining in these threads.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2013-03-12 20:49:05 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
When you recruit practically everyone in nullsec, to deliberately create a situation where there is nothing to do but shoot structures, you lose the right to call for nerfs in other areas.

As the saying goes, you reap what you sow. Have fun trying to keep your F1 lemmings entertained.


So basically what you are saying is that the people who generate the most press and word of mouth for this game should never, ever have a say in how to better the game. Gotcha.

I keep seeing these arguments in my forays into extremism in my country.


I said you have no right to call for nerfs, not that you don't have the right to complain about what you created. You delusions of grandeur is another reason why you don't have the right to call for nerfs.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Zarcan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#268 - 2013-03-12 20:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarcan
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
When you recruit practically everyone in nullsec, to deliberately create a situation where there is nothing to do but shoot structures, you lose the right to call for nerfs in other areas.

As the saying goes, you reap what you sow. Have fun trying to keep your F1 lemmings entertained.


So basically what you are saying is that the people who generate the most press and word of mouth for this game should never, ever have a say in how to better the game. Gotcha.

I keep seeing these arguments in my forays into extremism in my country.



I think that a vocal minority of hard core players can misrepresent the opinion of the lager, more casual play style, majority.



This is the story of Eve.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#269 - 2013-03-12 20:57:19 UTC
Cazador 64 wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
(good stuff)
(stuff)


no


oh sure, but -25% to refine is OK... Roll

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#270 - 2013-03-12 21:04:40 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
When you recruit practically everyone in nullsec, to deliberately create a situation where there is nothing to do but shoot structures, you lose the right to call for nerfs in other areas.

As the saying goes, you reap what you sow. Have fun trying to keep your F1 lemmings entertained.

So basically what you are saying is that the people who generate the most press and word of mouth for this game should never, ever have a say in how to better the game. Gotcha.

I keep seeing these arguments in my forays into extremism in my country.

Sometimes drastic measures are necessary to bring about drastic changes in a community. Necessary but drastic changes.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#271 - 2013-03-12 21:08:17 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Simple answer: because there is more than one problem with eve atm. Yeah SOV mechanics are bad but highsec also needs a nerf.


Why do you want CCP to go bankrupt?


"A nerf" is a far cry from "nerfed into the ground."

Why should people be able to anchor POs in HS for pennies in NPC controlled safety? Why should folks be able to get perfect refines and great manufacturing in the same station for super cheap, while player controlled space (the big draw of the game) gets the shaft?



1) Because they spent a ton of effort grinding standings to be able to place that POS. AND, the cost of running a POS is more in high sec than in 0.0.

2) a nerf of high sec refine.. say 25% or less, would probably be acceptable. The rest of your post is about buff to null (better refine and more slots), so call it that. A better buff to null would be to greatly increase the amount of trit and mex that you get from high end rocks to end that mega bottleneck to null production.



laffo if you think grinding standings is effort compared to, say, dropping an outpost and upgrading it

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#272 - 2013-03-12 21:08:40 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Would you care to dispute Mr Stark's figures with your own? Or do you prefer to just shout loudly and hope everyone confuses noise with conviction?


You're doing a fine job at it, CSM Candidate Malcanis. I can't decide whether you're just a talking head, or if you believe that your ideas are actually feasible. In either case, you and your null bear entourage represent the biggest threat to this game as far as this voter is concerned.

Fact: Null sec is largely void of NPC control and interaction. It is supposed to be a dangerous final frontier controlled by the players who live there.

Fact: A large majority of the players (at least, according to the forums) who live in null are not happy about the current state of affairs.

Malcanis' solution = Make null more like hi-sec, then nerf hi-sec.

I have zero vested interest in what happens in null sec, therefore, it can burn to the ground for all I care. But from what I can tell, the players who live there have done a fine job of ruining it already and now want to spread their power and influence to other areas of space. Isn't life in null supposed to be difficult? Isn't cutting the cord off from NPCs supposed to be what it's all about?

It must be, because every time one of these threads is posted, the opposition turns out in force to try to convince the rest of us how bad they really have it. I look at maps and see large blocks of space owned by major alliances who must be bored to tears, because instead of running their empires, they're whining in these threads.


I dont think Malcanis is fooling many voters honestly. I think most take his rhetoric as just trying to pander to the Null Alliance voting block. He is definitely not the type of candidate that is in the best interests of the majority of players in High Sec. and I would suspect he will get minimal votes from them.

CCP is not going to back any of these drastic changes. It wont matter if they are just pushed here on the forums or are brought to them by a CSM like Malcanis, they will be taken for what they are, self serving agendas not in the best interests of the game as a WHOLE.

EVE is a game about the players and the growing majority of players are continuing to gather in High Sec for various reasons. CCP is not going to push the agendas of the few onto the majority. Its a recipe for disaster and they now this. The best thing that can happen is a buff to null sec economy in SOV space that comes with an overhaul to SOV mechanics that would ensure that this buff would be felt from the bottom up instead of lining the pockets of the already filthy rich alliances. Once the death grip on vast areas of unused SOV space and the redistribution of the moon mining into wider areas of SOV space would help promote interest in smaller corps and alliances to leave high sec and seek industry and wealth in null sec because that would be a realistic goal after the changes. PvP would increase. Null would come to life again.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2013-03-12 21:09:43 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Cazador 64 wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
(good stuff)
(stuff)


no


oh sure, but -25% to refine is OK... Roll



Think through the effects of the 25% nerf to high sec refine.

There is a reason that missioning and mining pay about the same per hour now that drone goo has been removed as a faster than mining way to inject minerals into the game.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#274 - 2013-03-12 21:10:40 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
Fact: Null sec is largely void of NPC control and interaction. It is supposed to be a dangerous final frontier controlled by the players who live there.

Fact: A large majority of the players (at least, according to the forums) who live in null are not happy about the current state of affairs.

Malcanis' solution = Make null more like hi-sec, then nerf hi-sec.


you should probably stop putting words in people's mouths

in fact you should probably stop posting

"player-controlled space" is player-controlled space, not player-designed space

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#275 - 2013-03-12 21:11:12 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Would you care to dispute Mr Stark's figures with your own? Or do you prefer to just shout loudly and hope everyone confuses noise with conviction?


You're doing a fine job at it, CSM Candidate Malcanis. I can't decide whether you're just a talking head, or if you believe that your ideas are actually feasible. In either case, you and your null bear entourage represent the biggest threat to this game as far as this voter is concerned.

Fact: Null sec is largely void of NPC control and interaction. It is supposed to be a dangerous final frontier controlled by the players who live there.

Fact: A large majority of the players (at least, according to the forums) who live in null are not happy about the current state of affairs.

Malcanis' solution = Make null more like hi-sec, then nerf hi-sec.

I have zero vested interest in what happens in null sec, therefore, it can burn to the ground for all I care. But from what I can tell, the players who live there have done a fine job of ruining it already and now want to spread their power and influence to other areas of space. Isn't life in null supposed to be difficult? Isn't cutting the cord off from NPCs supposed to be what it's all about?

It must be, because every time one of these threads is posted, the opposition turns out in force to try to convince the rest of us how bad they really have it. I look at maps and see large blocks of space owned by major alliances who must be bored to tears, because instead of running their empires, they're whining in these threads.


You're delightfully immune to facts. No, really, I respect that kind of commitment to your ideology, and I think it's great that your meta-RP elicits so much passion from you. In a way, I almost envy you the intensity of that experience.

However, I'll be over here in the dull, boring real world where 2+2 only equals 4, trying to fix stuff. Don't worry though, nothing I want to achieve will really make much difference to you. Although you're free to RP your fear that it will. Indeed, please go ahead.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2013-03-12 21:13:01 UTC
Jireel wrote:
Just wanting to point out that being bored with highsec and having no interest in nullsec, there is still the third option avaliable, that is to say hello to sleepers.


Are there enough livable wormholes to support nullsec's population?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#277 - 2013-03-12 21:14:14 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Jireel wrote:
Just wanting to point out that being bored with highsec and having no interest in nullsec, there is still the third option avaliable, that is to say hello to sleepers.

Are there enough livable wormholes to support nullsec's population?

If they stopped blobbing and a whole ton of them ~manned up~ and went back to highsec, why not.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#278 - 2013-03-12 21:14:44 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Kane Alvo wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Would you care to dispute Mr Stark's figures with your own? Or do you prefer to just shout loudly and hope everyone confuses noise with conviction?


You're doing a fine job at it, CSM Candidate Malcanis. I can't decide whether you're just a talking head, or if you believe that your ideas are actually feasible. In either case, you and your null bear entourage represent the biggest threat to this game as far as this voter is concerned.

Fact: Null sec is largely void of NPC control and interaction. It is supposed to be a dangerous final frontier controlled by the players who live there.

Fact: A large majority of the players (at least, according to the forums) who live in null are not happy about the current state of affairs.

Malcanis' solution = Make null more like hi-sec, then nerf hi-sec.

I have zero vested interest in what happens in null sec, therefore, it can burn to the ground for all I care. But from what I can tell, the players who live there have done a fine job of ruining it already and now want to spread their power and influence to other areas of space. Isn't life in null supposed to be difficult? Isn't cutting the cord off from NPCs supposed to be what it's all about?

It must be, because every time one of these threads is posted, the opposition turns out in force to try to convince the rest of us how bad they really have it. I look at maps and see large blocks of space owned by major alliances who must be bored to tears, because instead of running their empires, they're whining in these threads.


I dont think Malcanis is fooling many voters honestly. I think most take his rhetoric as just trying to pander to the Null Alliance voting block. He is definitely not the type of candidate that is in the best interests of the majority of players in High Sec. and I would suspect he will get minimal votes from them.

CCP is not going to back any of these drastic changes. It wont matter if they are just pushed here on the forums or are brought to them by a CSM like Malcanis, they will be taken for what they are, self serving agendas not in the best interests of the game as a WHOLE.

EVE is a game about the players and the growing majority of players are continuing to gather in High Sec for various reasons. CCP is not going to push the agendas of the few onto the majority. Its a recipe for disaster and they now this. The best thing that can happen is a buff to null sec economy in SOV space that comes with an overhaul to SOV mechanics that would ensure that this buff would be felt from the bottom up instead of lining the pockets of the already filthy rich alliances. Once the death grip on vast areas of unused SOV space and the redistribution of the moon mining into wider areas of SOV space would help promote interest in smaller corps and alliances to leave high sec and seek industry and wealth in null sec because that would be a realistic goal after the changes. PvP would increase. Null would come to life again.



Fooling voters with what? That he is an advocate for balancing highsec and nullsec? Right now highsec is *extremely* profitable with little to no risk. Meanwhile, nullsec is marginally as profitable, simply from shooting rats, while being only as dangerous as the players who live there allow it to be. Don't you think that those who put in more effort into their space should profit more from living there?

No, you don't. You want everything to be super easy and handed to you on a silver platter.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#279 - 2013-03-12 21:14:47 UTC
Andski wrote:
Kane Alvo wrote:
Fact: Null sec is largely void of NPC control and interaction. It is supposed to be a dangerous final frontier controlled by the players who live there.

Fact: A large majority of the players (at least, according to the forums) who live in null are not happy about the current state of affairs.

Malcanis' solution = Make null more like hi-sec, then nerf hi-sec.


you should probably stop putting words in people's mouths

in fact you should probably stop posting

"player-controlled space" is player-controlled space, not player-designed space


He's right on one count though: I want to make null-sec more like hi-sec insofar as I want to make productive professions viable there.

I'm not quite sure why he thinks that making it viable for low level alliance members to build T1 battlecruisers and whatever is such a damning accusation though. No doubt it all makes sense to him, and if it doesn't another shot of Windex will help out.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#280 - 2013-03-12 21:15:39 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
I said you have no right to call for nerfs, not that you don't have the right to complain about what you created. You delusions of grandeur is another reason why you don't have the right to call for nerfs.


feel free to tell us how we created nullsec

well, you can't since you don't actually know a thing about 0.0 so let me enlighten you:

we did not do any world shaping, we did not design outposts, we did not design POS, we did not design the sov mechanics

yeah, go poorly troll another thread

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar