These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Jita Park Speakers Corner

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CSM 8 - Things that need repairing.

First post
Author
Badger Alestorm
Doomheim
#61 - 2013-03-12 14:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Badger Alestorm
Frying Doom wrote:

So we put you in the basket of not caring that the power of your votes is diminished, understood. Also so nice to see someone so trusting of CCP and having faith in them not to lie, oh and I have a lovely bridge I would like to sell you.


I don't know what you're talking about, I agree with you completely. CCP is a menace and by far the biggest threat to EvE that EvE has ever or will ever face.

If I were elected CSM the first thing I'd do when I got off the plane to Iceland is punch the first CCP employee I saw right in the face. You need to establish dominance quickly. The CSM is basically like prison, you either beat the crap out of someone the first day, or you end up someones *****. That's why I'd also sharpen the end of my toothbrush before I went, too. I'd also smuggle in as much illict substances as I could by putting them in a balloon and swallowing them, but that's more for personal reasons.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#62 - 2013-03-12 15:32:32 UTC
Badger Alestorm wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So we put you in the basket of not caring that the power of your votes is diminished, understood. Also so nice to see someone so trusting of CCP and having faith in them not to lie, oh and I have a lovely bridge I would like to sell you.


I don't know what you're talking about, I agree with you completely. CCP is a menace and by far the biggest threat to EvE that EvE has ever or will ever face.

If I were elected CSM the first thing I'd do when I got off the plane to Iceland is punch the first CCP employee I saw right in the face. You need to establish dominance quickly. The CSM is basically like prison, you either beat the crap out of someone the first day, or you end up someones *****. That's why I'd also sharpen the end of my toothbrush before I went, too. I'd also smuggle in as much illict substances as I could by putting them in a balloon and swallowing them, but that's more for personal reasons.


I think I just found the candidate I want to endorse!!

Issler
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#63 - 2013-03-12 16:06:34 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:


Issler Dainze wrote:

But over communicating and the appearance of activity may not actively reflect on the quality or effectiveness of the actual efforts of a particular member.

Yeah...except it usually does. Even Two Step, who I've gotten into fights with over his communication style at summits, I'd consider him without a doubt as an easily identified worker compared to our silent partners. In the rare instance where it doesn't, or there's legitimate reason this person should be going but CCP is resistant because they're a critic, the rest of the CSM can use their consultation powers to support them. And failing all that, CSM members that aren't imported now have the ability (and officially typed out right) to appear remotely which I can tell you from personal experience is a major step from earlier summit arrangements.

I like traveling and Iceland in particular. But it's more of burden than a reward to others, consuming all of their vacation days and requiring epicly long plane rides (West Coast US to Iceland in some cases).

As for rewards for those who stay home, I got to Real Talk CCP Soundwave about POS, 0.0, and wardecs while wearing pajama pants. Cool


I'd argue if you just use the metric of getting something done the record is not so clear. Volume and quantity are not the same as effectiveness or quality. I can think of cases in fact where the tone combined with the volume of communication went from persuasion to ineffective ranting.

The addition of remote meetings is great and has changed the character of the CSM. I was able to attend some of the first CSM 7 summit and most of the last summit remotely. To say that you can be as effective as being 1:1 just isn't true. Face to face beats " web cam to web cam" every time. For example when there are prototypes to interact with remote sucks.

Also, folks need to realize if you want to see Iceland the CSM is the worst possible way. If you want to see Iceland in the context of Eve then Fanfest is the answer. If you just want to go to Iceland, find something to do that pays to do with the time you have to spend as part of the CSM and just pay for a nice vacation there. You can go when you want and when you get there do whatever you want and see what you want to see. You'd probably even have some money left over!

So for the folks that do run and get elected I hope you are ready to commit and you are doing it for the love of Eve. The CSM 7 leaves you the opportunity to have the most influence with the dev process of any CSM to date. If you are running for the right reasons and get elected you have the opportunity to move that ball even further down the field. If you are running for ego/trip to Iceland/drama/circus then please find another distraction as you are just wasting a lot resources and time. Not to mention losing the momentum gained from CSM 6 and CSM 7,

One final thing, you no longer seem to get a CSM medal! So make sure you are doing this as a service to the game, not for the medal!! P

Issler
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#64 - 2013-03-12 16:27:40 UTC
Badger Alestorm wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So we put you in the basket of not caring that the power of your votes is diminished, understood. Also so nice to see someone so trusting of CCP and having faith in them not to lie, oh and I have a lovely bridge I would like to sell you.


I don't know what you're talking about, I agree with you completely. CCP is a menace and by far the biggest threat to EvE that EvE has ever or will ever face.

If I were elected CSM the first thing I'd do when I got off the plane to Iceland is punch the first CCP employee I saw right in the face. You need to establish dominance quickly. The CSM is basically like prison, you either beat the crap out of someone the first day, or you end up someones *****. That's why I'd also sharpen the end of my toothbrush before I went, too. I'd also smuggle in as much illict substances as I could by putting them in a balloon and swallowing them, but that's more for personal reasons.


Quoting the next CSM chairman!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-03-12 16:32:35 UTC
Badger Alestorm wrote:
Once CCP has no control over the game, we'll finally be able to have a fair and impartial CSM that is willing to speak it's mind and challenge CCP on what it could theoretically do in the game if they still had tha ability to do things. As long as EvE is CCP's game, CCP will have a say in what happens in it. Obviously, we can't allow that.

Post using your main, Mr. Swift.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#66 - 2013-03-12 21:12:22 UTC
Well I'd vote for him...

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Frying Doom
#67 - 2013-03-12 22:43:56 UTC
Badger Alestorm wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So we put you in the basket of not caring that the power of your votes is diminished, understood. Also so nice to see someone so trusting of CCP and having faith in them not to lie, oh and I have a lovely bridge I would like to sell you.


I don't know what you're talking about, I agree with you completely. CCP is a menace and by far the biggest threat to EvE that EvE has ever or will ever face.

If I were elected CSM the first thing I'd do when I got off the plane to Iceland is punch the first CCP employee I saw right in the face. You need to establish dominance quickly. The CSM is basically like prison, you either beat the crap out of someone the first day, or you end up someones *****. That's why I'd also sharpen the end of my toothbrush before I went, too. I'd also smuggle in as much illict substances as I could by putting them in a balloon and swallowing them, but that's more for personal reasons.

Well in that case I think you will not fit in with some of the other CSM candidates this year, as there seem to be quiet a few happy to roll over for CCP but there are those who aren't with those you might not get mike blocked by butt kissers.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#68 - 2013-03-12 22:49:54 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:


but I must still ask who do you send

you answered "10 hard-working people is still more than the 7 primary CSM members."

and that is very much what this comes down to "Who do you send", which members go and who stay, it becomes dependent on CCP to decide not on the playerbase.

If we get 10 hard working people on the council, more than double the usual number for CSMs 1-7, then I think changes to the election and selection system could be deemed an unqualified success. The problem of how to pick between 10 extremely awesome representatives is a good problem to have.

Issler Dainze wrote:

But over communicating and the appearance of activity may not actively reflect on the quality or effectiveness of the actual efforts of a particular member.

Yeah...except it usually does. Even Two Step, who I've gotten into fights with over his communication style at summits, I'd consider him without a doubt as an easily identified worker compared to our silent partners. In the rare instance where it doesn't, or there's legitimate reason this person should be going but CCP is resistant because they're a critic, the rest of the CSM can use their consultation powers to support them. And failing all that, CSM members that aren't imported now have the ability (and officially typed out right) to appear remotely which I can tell you from personal experience is a major step from earlier summit arrangements.

Re "culling" it's just not possible unless they send a dev to their "target" and break his or her webcam. If CCP has tuned a CSM rep out because they're a Frying Doom and decide not to pick him (assuming even if they'd be a good choice and the CSM agrees they should go) he should show up to the meetings like Hans and I did and speak his piece so it's in the minutes. They wont listen to him any more or less if he's in the room; he'd just be taking up space for someone who can communicate+participate more effectively.

Frying Doom wrote:

Yes and so without the trip what rewards do the other members of the CSM that put in 1000-1500 hours of hard work?

I like traveling and Iceland in particular. But it's more of burden than a reward to others, consuming all of their vacation days and requiring epicly long plane rides (West Coast US to Iceland in some cases).

As for rewards for those who stay home, I got to Real Talk CCP Soundwave about POS, 0.0, and wardecs while wearing pajama pants. Cool

Ok well I wont break this one down due to the stupid quote rule on these forums but allow me to say

1) You still did not say who would be sent, and as I said it will be butt kissers first and players opinions second.
2) Is that the same two step who Trebor valiantly got voted into Vice-Chairman so Two Step could be Secretary? The same Two Step that admits he doesn't care about for filling the role of Secretary? but of course ignoring the roles of his office and doing other stuff makes him hard working. We really have a different definition. (but having said that I did enjoy his back stab of CCP over POSs)
3) As to the Iceland trip, you do know most of you guys sound like real politicians when they are "forced" to go on fact finding missions, in other countries"

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#69 - 2013-03-12 22:51:02 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Badger Alestorm wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So we put you in the basket of not caring that the power of your votes is diminished, understood. Also so nice to see someone so trusting of CCP and having faith in them not to lie, oh and I have a lovely bridge I would like to sell you.


I don't know what you're talking about, I agree with you completely. CCP is a menace and by far the biggest threat to EvE that EvE has ever or will ever face.

If I were elected CSM the first thing I'd do when I got off the plane to Iceland is punch the first CCP employee I saw right in the face. You need to establish dominance quickly. The CSM is basically like prison, you either beat the crap out of someone the first day, or you end up someones *****. That's why I'd also sharpen the end of my toothbrush before I went, too. I'd also smuggle in as much illict substances as I could by putting them in a balloon and swallowing them, but that's more for personal reasons.


Quoting the next CSM chairman!

Well it would at least be entertaining Lol

And well a complete opposite of the CSM 7, CCP cheer leaders.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#70 - 2013-03-12 22:56:01 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:


Issler Dainze wrote:

But over communicating and the appearance of activity may not actively reflect on the quality or effectiveness of the actual efforts of a particular member.

Yeah...except it usually does. Even Two Step, who I've gotten into fights with over his communication style at summits, I'd consider him without a doubt as an easily identified worker compared to our silent partners. In the rare instance where it doesn't, or there's legitimate reason this person should be going but CCP is resistant because they're a critic, the rest of the CSM can use their consultation powers to support them. And failing all that, CSM members that aren't imported now have the ability (and officially typed out right) to appear remotely which I can tell you from personal experience is a major step from earlier summit arrangements.

I like traveling and Iceland in particular. But it's more of burden than a reward to others, consuming all of their vacation days and requiring epicly long plane rides (West Coast US to Iceland in some cases).

As for rewards for those who stay home, I got to Real Talk CCP Soundwave about POS, 0.0, and wardecs while wearing pajama pants. Cool


I'd argue if you just use the metric of getting something done the record is not so clear. Volume and quantity are not the same as effectiveness or quality. I can think of cases in fact where the tone combined with the volume of communication went from persuasion to ineffective ranting.

The addition of remote meetings is great and has changed the character of the CSM. I was able to attend some of the first CSM 7 summit and most of the last summit remotely. To say that you can be as effective as being 1:1 just isn't true. Face to face beats " web cam to web cam" every time. For example when there are prototypes to interact with remote sucks.

Also, folks need to realize if you want to see Iceland the CSM is the worst possible way. If you want to see Iceland in the context of Eve then Fanfest is the answer. If you just want to go to Iceland, find something to do that pays to do with the time you have to spend as part of the CSM and just pay for a nice vacation there. You can go when you want and when you get there do whatever you want and see what you want to see. You'd probably even have some money left over!

So for the folks that do run and get elected I hope you are ready to commit and you are doing it for the love of Eve. The CSM 7 leaves you the opportunity to have the most influence with the dev process of any CSM to date. If you are running for the right reasons and get elected you have the opportunity to move that ball even further down the field. If you are running for ego/trip to Iceland/drama/circus then please find another distraction as you are just wasting a lot resources and time. Not to mention losing the momentum gained from CSM 6 and CSM 7,

One final thing, you no longer seem to get a CSM medal! So make sure you are doing this as a service to the game, not for the medal!! P

Issler

I agree

But it does bring up an interesting question. Does someone who while hardworking in other regards but fails the duties of their office qualify as hard working? For example a chairman who does not communicate with the forums or a secretary who does not update the necessary pages ect..?

So if they go to Iceland but do not complete the duties of their office, it really would just show off the system as a butt kissers free trip program.

This might actually be more interesting and work out better as the office holders might actually have to do their jobs for once.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#71 - 2013-03-13 03:38:12 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

So if they go to Iceland but do not complete the duties of their office, it really would just show off the system as a butt kissers free trip program.



They should just create an office role assigned with the duties of butt kissing. Any of the other CSMs have to route their butt kissing to him, then he cleans it up, make it look professional and sends it on to CCP.

He gets a bus tour during the summit as well as being able to visit Hilmar's house during the weekends.

Would solve a lot of problems IMO.

Benefits to the game, when mistakes are made, and CCP will deal a heavy blow to the players in anger. He is there to soothe them with making them sound great, and all the problems were not their fault, but just problems everyone else has to deal with, so CCP shouldn't take it so personally.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-03-13 06:15:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Nomistrav
Could have been a lot nicer in my response, thereby - edited.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Frying Doom
#73 - 2013-03-13 09:08:30 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Could have been a lot nicer in my response, thereby - edited.

My appologies if I offended you by something I said, my head has been wierder than usual lately.

But having said that I do like the idea of the players preventing the CSM members from going to Iceland if they are officers that have not produced.

Your initial idea got me thinking on that one thanks.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Midori Amiiko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-03-13 11:08:44 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:


Then enough people should be disgusted about what the CSM has become to demand a change to the system by next year



Yeah. Let's go here. I might need a history lesson, and I'm sure I'll get one from some of the senior members of the CSM if it's called for. P

If I've got this right, the CSM was instituted in response to an incident where a GM allowed an in-game entity to procure some ISK printing devices (T2 BPO's?) before others could get them, thus causing a game imbalance. The CSM was supposed to enforce/insure fairness?

Now, it seems like people are under the impression that the CSM somehow controls the direction of EVEOnline's development. That's quite a bit of mission drift. As I understand it, the CSM has NEVER had this power. Clarification/education is always appreciated if I'm wrong about this.



I'd like to add that, having read all the published minutes released so far that I'm going to vote for the incumbents who participated in the last CSM. Ya'll had your sh!t together. On top of that, those had to be the most complete "minutes" I've ever read. Transcripts is a more accurate term.
Frying Doom
#75 - 2013-03-13 12:24:33 UTC
Midori Amiiko wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:


Then enough people should be disgusted about what the CSM has become to demand a change to the system by next year



Yeah. Let's go here. I might need a history lesson, and I'm sure I'll get one from some of the senior members of the CSM if it's called for. P

If I've got this right, the CSM was instituted in response to an incident where a GM allowed an in-game entity to procure some ISK printing devices (T2 BPO's?) before others could get them, thus causing a game imbalance. The CSM was supposed to enforce/insure fairness?

Now, it seems like people are under the impression that the CSM somehow controls the direction of EVEOnline's development. That's quite a bit of mission drift. As I understand it, the CSM has NEVER had this power. Clarification/education is always appreciated if I'm wrong about this.



I'd like to add that, having read all the published minutes released so far that I'm going to vote for the incumbents who participated in the last CSM. Ya'll had your sh!t together. On top of that, those had to be the most complete "minutes" I've ever read. Transcripts is a more accurate term.

The CSM has never really had a great deal of power but it is slowly gaining more. Its actual purpose is to act as our voice to CCP and give ideas in game direction, while stating our point of view to any current crisis. They are effectively our union.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Artctura
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2013-03-13 13:47:32 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Midori Amiiko wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:


Then enough people should be disgusted about what the CSM has become to demand a change to the system by next year



Yeah. Let's go here. I might need a history lesson, and I'm sure I'll get one from some of the senior members of the CSM if it's called for. P

If I've got this right, the CSM was instituted in response to an incident where a GM allowed an in-game entity to procure some ISK printing devices (T2 BPO's?) before others could get them, thus causing a game imbalance. The CSM was supposed to enforce/insure fairness?

Now, it seems like people are under the impression that the CSM somehow controls the direction of EVEOnline's development. That's quite a bit of mission drift. As I understand it, the CSM has NEVER had this power. Clarification/education is always appreciated if I'm wrong about this.



I'd like to add that, having read all the published minutes released so far that I'm going to vote for the incumbents who participated in the last CSM. Ya'll had your sh!t together. On top of that, those had to be the most complete "minutes" I've ever read. Transcripts is a more accurate term.

The CSM has never really had a great deal of power but it is slowly gaining more. Its actual purpose is to act as our voice to CCP and give ideas in game direction, while stating our point of view to any current crisis. They are effectively our union.


The CSM serves 2 purposes. They are primarily there to represent the customer (the players) to CCP in a way that effectively allows them to close the loop on the development cycle. It gives them a sounding board for ideas before a single piece of code is written, allowing them to refine an idea, bounce it off the CSM and hopefully skip several iterations of bad code from ever being written before it becomes what is best for the game.

The second, is to present broad stroked ideas to CCP that they may have missed. To give them opportunity to begin the development cycle and start bouncing more refined ideas back at the CSM.

Damage control to the player base is something that was originally part of the process (and in fact, its founding purpose after the t20 debacle), and reappeared as a duty after monocle-gate, but is not a primary purpose of the CSM. It's a critical function, but not something guarenteed to be part of CSM 8, 9, 10 and so on should it not be needed.

Anyone who tells you otherwise isn't understanding of the CSM. When I see fellow candidates posting specific ideas on POS PG and CPU utilization changes that they are going to make happen should they be elected, I cringe. They cannot and will not ever be able to fulfill those "promises". I'm not saying that a candidate shouldn't respond if asked by someone what they think about changes in detail, but to believe that you will be involved in the fine grain details of changes in the game at a level where you are telling the design and development team what to do, you have no true understanding of the position.
Badger Alestorm
Doomheim
#77 - 2013-03-13 14:05:24 UTC
It doesn't seem like any of you truly understand what the CSM is, so allow me to enlighten you.

No one knows where the first CCP employees came from, although The Watchers have found records of them throughout all of recorded history. An CCP employee can only die only after being beheaded, and the CSM delegates and CCP employees battle one another in ritual single combat to the death, until the CSM summit when the few remaining Immortals will fight until only one remains to take "The Prize". We aren't exactly sure what the prize is it's probably some limited edition shuttle bullshit because you know CCP.

There are some who believe CCP are actually aliens exiled from Zeist to Earth but THESE PEOPLE ARE ******* WRONG THAT NEVER HAPPENED, GOT THAT!?

Legends do speak of a chosen one who will defeat Hilmar in single combat, absorbing his powers and becoming the new CEO of CCP. I don't see it happening with this CSM class as none of the candidates running have stated a platform of decapitating Hilmar and absorbing his powers via The Quickening.

This is why ensuring CCP can't pick the delegates that go to Iceland is so important. They'll make sure only the weaker ones go, who will fall and only make CCP stronger.
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#78 - 2013-03-13 16:01:16 UTC
Badger Alestorm wrote:
*The Truth*
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#79 - 2013-03-13 16:06:08 UTC
Badger Alestorm wrote:
Legends do speak of a chosen one who will defeat Hilmar in single combat, absorbing his powers and becoming the new CEO of CCP. I don't see it happening with this CSM class as none of the candidates running have stated a platform of decapitating Hilmar and absorbing his powers via The Quickening.


This is why Trebor keeps running for the CSM. He is biding his time, waiting for the right moment to strike. He has clearly been in training, having lost many pounds of excess weight while on the CSM (For real, ask him!). Trebor is also really old, which means he is probably immortal.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#80 - 2013-03-13 17:23:47 UTC
Artctura wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Midori Amiiko wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:


Then enough people should be disgusted about what the CSM has become to demand a change to the system by next year



Yeah. Let's go here. I might need a history lesson, and I'm sure I'll get one from some of the senior members of the CSM if it's called for. P

If I've got this right, the CSM was instituted in response to an incident where a GM allowed an in-game entity to procure some ISK printing devices (T2 BPO's?) before others could get them, thus causing a game imbalance. The CSM was supposed to enforce/insure fairness?

Now, it seems like people are under the impression that the CSM somehow controls the direction of EVEOnline's development. That's quite a bit of mission drift. As I understand it, the CSM has NEVER had this power. Clarification/education is always appreciated if I'm wrong about this.



I'd like to add that, having read all the published minutes released so far that I'm going to vote for the incumbents who participated in the last CSM. Ya'll had your sh!t together. On top of that, those had to be the most complete "minutes" I've ever read. Transcripts is a more accurate term.

The CSM has never really had a great deal of power but it is slowly gaining more. Its actual purpose is to act as our voice to CCP and give ideas in game direction, while stating our point of view to any current crisis. They are effectively our union.


The CSM serves 2 purposes. They are primarily there to represent the customer (the players) to CCP in a way that effectively allows them to close the loop on the development cycle. It gives them a sounding board for ideas before a single piece of code is written, allowing them to refine an idea, bounce it off the CSM and hopefully skip several iterations of bad code from ever being written before it becomes what is best for the game.

The second, is to present broad stroked ideas to CCP that they may have missed. To give them opportunity to begin the development cycle and start bouncing more refined ideas back at the CSM.

Damage control to the player base is something that was originally part of the process (and in fact, its founding purpose after the t20 debacle), and reappeared as a duty after monocle-gate, but is not a primary purpose of the CSM. It's a critical function, but not something guarenteed to be part of CSM 8, 9, 10 and so on should it not be needed.

Anyone who tells you otherwise isn't understanding of the CSM. When I see fellow candidates posting specific ideas on POS PG and CPU utilization changes that they are going to make happen should they be elected, I cringe. They cannot and will not ever be able to fulfill those "promises". I'm not saying that a candidate shouldn't respond if asked by someone what they think about changes in detail, but to believe that you will be involved in the fine grain details of changes in the game at a level where you are telling the design and development team what to do, you have no true understanding of the position.


You missed the second big scandal, the POS exploit that was a big focus of CSM 2..

Issler