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[Suggestion] Make mission rewards and NPC bounties dynamic based on inflation and cost of living

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Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#21 - 2013-03-12 10:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Shokre O'Corwi wrote:

It would be better if all corps had a default 10% tax rate and any player run corp could add up on that tax for it's own income.

Bad idea.

I'd say remove default 40% insurance for blown ships and reduce insurance time from 3 to 1 month or remove insurance system at all. Because you already get rookie ship that is good enough to do L1 missions (dont fly ships that you cannot afford to lose).

Personally, I think replacing the insurance isk payout with a voucher system, (npc 'swap' order for minerals,) would help better. It would help lower the value of minerals as well as reduce the influx of isk into the EvE economy. It would actually become an isk sink, due to isk being required to take out the insurance.

But you do agree that free insurance makes no sense at all? Why would insurance company pay you for your loss when there is no contract between you and them?

Yes, unless you take out an insurance contract on a ship, (which I would also give an option for a rolling contract with a 3 month minimum,) you should get nothing.

Friends
Tweaks Huren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-03-12 14:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tweaks Huren
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Tweaks Huren wrote:
What you're all saying is just like saying that we should never get a raise in real life to compensate for inflation despite our buying power getting lower and lower with years? You know salary increases is only ONE of the many potential factors that contribute (indirectly I might add) to inflation?

I suggest you guys read on inflation a bit more... The value of 1 ISK has changed greatly in EVE online since 2003, but the amount of ISK given as mission ISK reward has not increased at the same time, so basically... Missions used to be worth something, and now they are worth nothing in comparison.

My point is to bring that back to where CCP originally intended it to be, all that inconsideration to other changes that have occurred in the economy since. And if this means adjusting the level 1,2,3 mission difficulty a bit more, I'm also fine with that. They are boring enough as it is (yet required to grind standing).

I see agent missions as a "job" in the world of EVE Online. Agents pay me for doing what they ask me for, whether it's killing enemies, manufacturing something or hauling items. I don't see why some of you say it's "free ISK", as if I didn't have to work for it. I don't call spending hours doing mission doing nothing... Just because it can be easier than hard labor in nullsec

Inflation in EvE is different to the real world. When your boss pays you, the money comes from somewhere, he doesn't just wave his hands and a pile of money turns up out of thin air. (If he can then please let me know, I want in on that.) In EvE, when you get an NPC bounty payout, that isk comes from nowhere. It is generated by the game from nothing. This is called an ISK FAUCET. This is what some refer to as 'free isk', because it comes from nowhere.

When you buy from an NPC sell order, (skill books and BPO's for instance,) that isk is destroyed, it ceases to exist. This is called an ISK SINK.

When you buy something from someone else, your isk in moved from your account to theirs, this is called an ISK TRANSEFR. (That said, a small percentage is taken as a tax, making a small potion an isk sink.)

We have inflation because the amount of isk being generated by the faucets out weighs the amount being destroyed by the sinks. So if we increase rat bounties, we will end up with worse inflation, which will mean higher bounties, higher inflation, higher bounties, higher inflation... You see where this is going.

The way to reduce inflation is to reduce the faucet effect and increase the sink effect.


Oh, and a couple of problems with an ISK cap would be hording and player number fluctuations. There is no sensible way you can cap the quantity of isk.


If what you say is true then it makes sense, I didn't know ISK just got destroyed or created out of thin air. I was under the impression that all NPC money came from a pool that was maintained by taxes, station service costs and other types of NPC fees, or what players bought directly from NPCs (such as items purchased from the LP store with ISK + LP), etc...

How do you know it works like that though? Has CCP ever disclosed that information clearly or you're just assuming that's how it works?

Why don't they just make it like a real economy then?
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#23 - 2013-03-12 14:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: DJ P0N-3
Go read back through the econ devblogs about inflation in EVE, as it seems you're missing some back information. Yes, we know it works that way. You're not being paid for out of a pool of NPC corp taxes that will dry up if too many people run missions.

The reason it works that way and not like a "real world" economy is that for most people, their income comes from PvE, not other players. If there were no NPCs who made ISK appear out of the aether, then it would be a real economy. But some players would have to sit around just handing out missions and paying people. Some players would just sit around buying blue loot and then hoarding it because it doesn't do anything. Instead of ratting, you'd have to go find a hotspot of infinite players with huge bounties flying super-expensive ships so you could have a sustainable income from it. Doesn't that sound even more tedious than missioning or ratting? What incentive would your ISK pinatas have to make themselves available to you?

EVE isn't like the real world. We don't have occupations. Our occupations are using our ISK for our amusement. We are all wealthy playboys. We get ISK from PvE and spend it on ships and skills. There's only a handful of people who make their ISK off of services to other players (e.g. Red Frog).

If missioning is boring, try another form of making ISK.
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-03-12 14:44:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Friggz
You can't increase isk faucets to match inflation because isk faucets are what cause it in the first place.

Okay, let me explain this simply.

Isk a commodity like every other commodity, and it's value can increase and decrease exactly like any other commodity.

So what effects the value of a commodity? Supply and demand. Isk supply increases whenever isk enters the universe, primarily through mission rewards, ratting bounties and insurance payouts. Isk's supply decreases when it leaves the universe, through the purchase of skillbooks from NPCs, paying for War-decs, basically anytime isk is paid and it doesn't go to a player.

You can't increase the value of mission rewards to keep up with inflation because by increasing the raw amount of isk you receive, you are in fact making that isk less valuable, because you increasing supply.

It's just like if you were to suddenly increase the amount of Trit that comes from mining Veldspar by 1000 times. The price of Veldspar and trit would crash immediately and you'd be making 1 thousandth of what you made before per unit.

In short: The easier it is to create isk, the less isk is worth. Therefore if isk is worth less, you have to pay more of it in trade to buy what you want. This is inflation.
Titti Sabezan
SYNDIC Unlimited
#25 - 2013-03-12 14:46:15 UTC
TL;DR

Item: It's not going to happen

Item: The inflation only really affects Stuff People Want. Generally, if you're missioning, you're at a sufficently low level that your mission rewards will pay for whatever you need to get for missioning.

So, conversely, if you're finding missions don't pay enough, you need to be moving on to something else.
Try PI -- you have set-up costs, and you need to fly minerals and Stage 1 products about, but once a week you go to Jita, seel it all, and get 8M back.

Try Industry for a corp -- they pew pew, you build build the stuff that they get shot off. Or, alternatively, pew pew for someone who'll sell you stuff cheap from their industrialists.

Missions are for carebears -- Real Men Hull-Tank.
Tweaks Huren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-03-12 15:05:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tweaks Huren
Titti Sabezan wrote:
TL;DR

Item: It's not going to happen

Item: The inflation only really affects Stuff People Want. Generally, if you're missioning, you're at a sufficently low level that your mission rewards will pay for whatever you need to get for missioning.

So, conversely, if you're finding missions don't pay enough, you need to be moving on to something else.
Try PI -- you have set-up costs, and you need to fly minerals and Stage 1 products about, but once a week you go to Jita, seel it all, and get 8M back.

Try Industry for a corp -- they pew pew, you build build the stuff that they get shot off. Or, alternatively, pew pew for someone who'll sell you stuff cheap from their industrialists.

Missions are for carebears -- Real Men Hull-Tank.

That's totally besides the point of this thread. My point is that mission rewards are nowhere near what they were originally set to in ratio when they were first introduced, so I thought an adjustment was in order.

Also, not everybody can (for personal real life reason) or want to play the high-risk/high-reward game in low/null sec, but still want to play EVE nevertheless. Missions and other means of passive income are there for a reason, and they deserve the same attention. Don't be so selfish.
Tweaks Huren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-03-12 15:12:31 UTC
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
Go read back through the econ devblogs about inflation in EVE, as it seems you're missing some back information. Yes, we know it works that way. You're not being paid for out of a pool of NPC corp taxes that will dry up if too many people run missions.

The reason it works that way and not like a "real world" economy is that for most people, their income comes from PvE, not other players. If there were no NPCs who made ISK appear out of the aether, then it would be a real economy. But some players would have to sit around just handing out missions and paying people. Some players would just sit around buying blue loot and then hoarding it because it doesn't do anything. Instead of ratting, you'd have to go find a hotspot of infinite players with huge bounties flying super-expensive ships so you could have a sustainable income from it. Doesn't that sound even more tedious than missioning or ratting? What incentive would your ISK pinatas have to make themselves available to you?

EVE isn't like the real world. We don't have occupations. Our occupations are using our ISK for our amusement. We are all wealthy playboys. We get ISK from PvE and spend it on ships and skills. There's only a handful of people who make their ISK off of services to other players (e.g. Red Frog).

If missioning is boring, try another form of making ISK.

Would you have a link to that blog? I'm interested.

That said, if they made it smart enough, they could still let NPCs manage all that based on supply and demand and simulate a real-life economy that way. Sure, some regions would be poorer than others, and some goods would simply be unavailable in other regions simply because there is not enough offer, but that is exactly what a real-life economy is like.

I'm trying to think of a good reason why it could not be done and I can't see one. If they simulate market activity using NPCs to buy and sell goods, and transport them (with actual haulers) in addition to relying on players to run courier, manufacturing and item exchange missions to haul goods around or increase supply, then it would work.

Point is, NPC money doesn't have to be an ISK sink or free ISK if CCP decides to create a proper simulation and let NPCs act as if they were players (do real transactions based on supply and demand, or increase supply certain things based on political events such as wars, increase NPC buy orders for certain items with prices closer to actual market price, etc...)
S'totan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-03-12 15:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Tweaks Huren wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, mission rewards and NPC pirate bounties are currently fixed amounts (the base amount that is) and have been for quite some time. However, the economy in EVE and the cost of living (tied to the inflation rate and the offer and demand of the market) has increased drastically since those amounts were set many years ago.

This has for effect to render missioning insignificant as a direct source income, at least at lower levels wher ethe loot is not worth much. You'll say the loot is what is worth something, but that's not always true. Point is, missions rewards used to be much more profitable (ISK reward and bonus reward alone) before, and is becoming more and more insignificant.

For example... I can make 5,000,000 ISK or more selling the loot I salvage form a Level III mission, but the reward will be less than 500,000 ISK if I'm lucky, and that's if I solo the mission.

I think instead of being of a fixed amount, mission rewards and NPC bounties should follow the cost of living and the inflation rate of the EVE economy so they are always worth the same thing in proportion.


Edit - Snipped ranting, - ISD Suvetar instead of running missions, go build something.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-03-12 16:07:58 UTC
I dont think you understand the huge imbalance there currently is between faucets and sinks, OP.

if there was a finite pool of isk in the game, then within a month, no matter how big it was, it would be gone. especially since the second players heard NPC's only have X amount of isk, they would ALL mission to get as much of the finite resource as they can.

this would eventually devolve into a hyper-stratified economy USA style, where the people in professions with the least upkeep expenditures comapred to their income will eventually have all the isk.

you dont want the eve economy in the hands of only a few people, it wouldnt be good.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#30 - 2013-03-12 16:16:18 UTC
A quick fix would be to reduce mission rewards and npc bounties to zero. The only money you make is from selling loot to other players or refining them into minerals, this would make it like mining which merely exchanges isk from one player to another.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-03-12 16:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
A quick fix would be to reduce mission rewards and npc bounties to zero. The only money you make is from selling loot to other players or refining them into minerals, this would make it like mining which merely exchanges isk from one player to another.

but after a few years of paying SOV bills and Station taxes there would be no ISK left in the game.
A fixed amount of ISK would be feasible to cap inflation, but would create other problems in its wake.
The only way to deflate the economy is to create more isk sinks, they could not be in forms of Docking taxes, skill book cost increases, clone cost increases or anything that could/would make a rookie unable to play or an high SP player unwilling to play.
Personally I have been fond of the concept of a 1% empire tariff for all industrial ships upon entering a high sec system or changing empires in high sec. The tariff would be based on the estimated value of the cargo.

Affected ships would be, T1 industrials, Transport ships, Freighters, Jump Freighters, Mining Barges, Exhumers, Industrial Command ships, and (though they will never be allowed) Capital Industrial ships.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Tweaks Huren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-03-12 16:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tweaks Huren
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
I dont think you understand the huge imbalance there currently is between faucets and sinks, OP.

if there was a finite pool of isk in the game, then within a month, no matter how big it was, it would be gone. especially since the second players heard NPC's only have X amount of isk, they would ALL mission to get as much of the finite resource as they can.

this would eventually devolve into a hyper-stratified economy USA style, where the people in professions with the least upkeep expenditures comapred to their income will eventually have all the isk.

you dont want the eve economy in the hands of only a few people, it wouldnt be good.

I do understand, but if you read through the rest of my posts (as I learned through your answers), I have suggested other alternatives.

Yes, if they SIMPLY increase mission reward and leave the system as it is now, I agree, it will cause more inflation.

BUT

If they drastically change the way NPC manage ISK, products and the market to "simulate" exactly what players are doing, then it would be able to work. (By that I mean moving goods with actual NPC haulers based on supply and demand, auto-adjusting orders based on supply and demand, buying and selling at the actual market median prices, giving missions that are actually helping the NPC corp giving it, such as actually moving real lgoods they need based on supply and demand, and such...). Yes it's a lot of work and it's beyond my original post's suggestion, but it could work if it was done properly. In other words, CCP would need to create a living NPC economy that merges with the player-based economy instead of injecting free-ISK or destroying it.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#33 - 2013-03-12 16:50:45 UTC
Folks,

Please post pleasantly and constructively.

You don't have to resort to name-calling and personal attacks to make your point and continuing to do so will affect your posting privileges.

Thanks.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Velicitia
XS Tech
#34 - 2013-03-12 17:05:01 UTC
S'totan wrote:
Tweaks Huren wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, mission rewards and NPC pirate bounties are currently fixed amounts (the base amount that is) and have been for quite some time. However, the economy in EVE and the cost of living (tied to the inflation rate and the offer and demand of the market) has increased drastically since those amounts were set many years ago.

This has for effect to render missioning insignificant as a direct source income, at least at lower levels wher ethe loot is not worth much. You'll say the loot is what is worth something, but that's not always true. Point is, missions rewards used to be much more profitable (ISK reward and bonus reward alone) before, and is becoming more and more insignificant.

For example... I can make 5,000,000 ISK or more selling the loot I salvage form a Level III mission, but the reward will be less than 500,000 ISK if I'm lucky, and that's if I solo the mission.

I think instead of being of a fixed amount, mission rewards and NPC bounties should follow the cost of living and the inflation rate of the EVE economy so they are always worth the same thing in proportion.


Edit - Snipped ranting, - ISD Suvetar instead of running missions, go build destroy something.


FTFY ... I think, maybe...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#35 - 2013-03-12 17:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
Tweaks Huren wrote:
If what you say is true then it makes sense, I didn't know ISK just got destroyed or created out of thin air. I was under the impression that all NPC money came from a pool that was maintained by taxes, station service costs and other types of NPC fees, or what players bought directly from NPCs (such as items purchased from the LP store with ISK + LP), etc...

How do you know it works like that though? Has CCP ever disclosed that information clearly or you're just assuming that's how it works?

Why don't they just make it like a real economy then?

It's true.

CCP have fully disclosed and have made many presentations and dev blogs on the subject:
Evopedia: ISK FAUCET
Evopedia: ISK SINK
Evopedia: ISK TRANSFER

This bit is my own opinion/theory, but I think it is correct:
Because of inflation. With the playerbase in constant flux as well as the ease of resource creation, (isk sinks/faucets are mirrored with resource sink/faucets,) and so there is a constant flux of resources, currency and players.
I imagine it's much simpler to balance a virtual economy this way, rather than emulate the real world, (whihc, lets face it, is pretty screwed too.)

Friends
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#36 - 2013-03-12 17:09:22 UTC
Tweaks Huren wrote:
BUT

If they drastically change the way NPC manage ISK, products and the market to "simulate" exactly what players are doing, then it would be able to work. (By that I mean moving goods with actual NPC haulers based on supply and demand, auto-adjusting orders based on supply and demand, buying and selling at the actual market median prices, giving missions that are actually helping the NPC corp giving it, such as actually moving real lgoods they need based on supply and demand, and such...). Yes it's a lot of work and it's beyond my original post's suggestion, but it could work if it was done properly. In other words, CCP would need to create a living NPC economy that merges with the player-based economy instead of injecting free-ISK or destroying it.

Too easy to exploit. All it would take is for the people at the top to either horde all the isk they can or release it back into the market again and we end up with boom and bust issues.

Friends
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#37 - 2013-03-12 17:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
if the NPC's did not create wealth they would be dripped of their money in minutes. they pay far more out than they receive.

with an Apoc u can use T1 crystals and run missions with absolutely no expenditure. u would simply take more and more isk from the NPC's until it ran out.

edit - the reason ur missions arent worth very much is because they REALLY arent worth very much. they dnt take much time effort or investment to run. christ, they can be done semi-afk for crying out loud. and u wanna be paid for that little amount of work?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Tweaks Huren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-03-12 17:34:49 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Tweaks Huren wrote:
BUT

If they drastically change the way NPC manage ISK, products and the market to "simulate" exactly what players are doing, then it would be able to work. (By that I mean moving goods with actual NPC haulers based on supply and demand, auto-adjusting orders based on supply and demand, buying and selling at the actual market median prices, giving missions that are actually helping the NPC corp giving it, such as actually moving real lgoods they need based on supply and demand, and such...). Yes it's a lot of work and it's beyond my original post's suggestion, but it could work if it was done properly. In other words, CCP would need to create a living NPC economy that merges with the player-based economy instead of injecting free-ISK or destroying it.

Too easy to exploit. All it would take is for the people at the top to either horde all the isk they can or release it back into the market again and we end up with boom and bust issues.

Just thinking out loud here, but how is this kind of "exploit" dealt with in real life and why couldn't they apply the same laws/protections in EVE to prevent it?
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-03-12 17:36:28 UTC
-Remove insurance.
-Increase sov bill 10x
-Increase wardec cost 1000x
-Charge npc tax to "refine" moongoo

Just a few good ideas to fix Eve inflation.Lol
Tweaks Huren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-03-12 17:37:00 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
if the NPC's did not create wealth they would be dripped of their money in minutes. they pay far more out than they receive.

with an Apoc u can use T1 crystals and run missions with absolutely no expenditure. u would simply take more and more isk from the NPC's until it ran out.

edit - the reason ur missions arent worth very much is because they REALLY arent worth very much. they dnt take much time effort or investment to run. christ, they can be done semi-afk for crying out loud. and u wanna be paid for that little amount of work?

No I don't, so make them harder then... that's another good point.. Missions are boring AND they don't pay at all.

But then again, this is besides my original point. My point was that due to the nature of the EVE economy and the inflation that occurred over the years, that missions do not give the same "value" they used to when they were first introduced.
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