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Why complain about High Sec but not SOV mechanics? An honest look at null bears.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#201 - 2013-03-12 14:16:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
How much risk are the various alliances' super-capital construction facilities under?
So-so. Largely because POSes die so easily (and boringly) to a properly-sized fleet hell-bent on its destruction. The real trick lies in figuring out what's going on in the CSAA and if it's worth attacking…

If you have a thousand players working to defend something, and they know when and where to defend it, it can always turn into into shooting fish in a barrel if you're willing to show up really really early.

Take 750 (three fleets) of subcaps, 250 (one fleet) of "slowcats", a cynojammer, 10+ bubbles on each gate and 10-20+ triage carriers sitting on the POS.


TiDi doesn't slow down reinforce timers, last I heard. So when It starts taking minutes to align and warp (and remember there's bubbles on the gates) then you can imagine the reinforce timer might end before you even clear/burn out of a single camped gate and the POS is repped and stronted. Then the defenders can just leave and let you shoot structure again, but probably not since they can use (super)capitals and you can't.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#202 - 2013-03-12 14:17:50 UTC
Andski wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Here is one of those people now. None of the nullbears want to lose their hi-sec play ground. Null sec is player created so let the players change it if they are bored.

Don’t change hi-sec to counter what we created in null. We made our bed lets lay in it.


if only we could magic away the limitations of nullsec through the powers of the Sandbox(TM)

(we can't)


Did you know that we can only have 1 outpost per system in sov 0.0 because we make bad choices?

(V.V. will tell us what the good choices are later, I'm hoping)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#203 - 2013-03-12 14:18:03 UTC
Shockingly, you can get whole fleets, capital and subcapital, to show up to something like a station timer or CSAA-with-titan-in-it timer.

Though not if your chaps are pretty tired and don't give a damn. See: Delve (additional reference: Not Undocking, Didn't Want That X Anyway)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#204 - 2013-03-12 14:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Malcanis wrote:
Andski wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Here is one of those people now. None of the nullbears want to lose their hi-sec play ground. Null sec is player created so let the players change it if they are bored.

Don’t change hi-sec to counter what we created in null. We made our bed lets lay in it.

if only we could magic away the limitations of nullsec through the powers of the Sandbox(TM)

(we can't)

Did you know that we can only have 1 outpost per system in sov 0.0 because we make bad choices?

(V.V. will tell us what the good choices are later, I'm hoping)

I heard apparently there's a way if we ~emergent gameplay~ enough you can get more outposts in a system.

The good choices are choosing to industry in highsec and JF it down. A better choice would be to live full-time in the utopia that is CONCORD's kingdom.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Le Badass
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2013-03-12 14:23:28 UTC
I don't even know what this thread is about but d*mn there are a lot of goonies in here :-D
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#206 - 2013-03-12 14:24:12 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
How much risk are the various alliances' super-capital construction facilities under?
So-so. Largely because POSes die so easily (and boringly) to a properly-sized fleet hell-bent on its destruction. The real trick lies in figuring out what's going on in the CSAA and if it's worth attacking…

If you have a thousand players working to defend something, and they know when and where to defend it, it can always turn into into shooting fish in a barrel if you're willing to show up really really early.

Take 750 (three fleets) of subcaps, 250 (one fleet) of "slowcats", a cynojammer, 10+ bubbles on each gate and 10-20+ triage carriers sitting on the POS.


TiDi doesn't slow down reinforce timers, last I heard. So when It starts taking minutes to align and warp (and remember there's bubbles on the gates) then you can imagine the reinforce timer might end before you even clear/burn out of a single camped gate and the POS is repped and stronted. Then the defenders can just leave and let you shoot structure again, but probably not since they can use (super)capitals and you can't.


On the other hand, you need 1000 people willing to pitch up and defend that POS.

Assuming that the op takes 2 hours, and we're valuing the time of the people involved at 30M per hour, which is what they could make running hi-sec L4s, then the opportunity cost to successfully defend a CSAA in that fashion is around 60 billion ISK (Plus maybe another bill in isotopes, stront, ozone, bubbles, etc etc).

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#207 - 2013-03-12 14:25:30 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
How much risk are the various alliances' super-capital construction facilities under?
So-so. Largely because POSes die so easily (and boringly) to a properly-sized fleet hell-bent on its destruction. The real trick lies in figuring out what's going on in the CSAA and if it's worth attacking…

If you have a thousand players working to defend something, and they know when and where to defend it, it can always turn into into shooting fish in a barrel if you're willing to show up really really early.

Take 750 (three fleets) of subcaps, 250 (one fleet) of "slowcats", a cynojammer, 10+ bubbles on each gate and 10-20+ triage carriers sitting on the POS.


TiDi doesn't slow down reinforce timers, last I heard. So when It starts taking minutes to align and warp (and remember there's bubbles on the gates) then you can imagine the reinforce timer might end before you even clear/burn out of a single camped gate and the POS is repped and stronted. Then the defenders can just leave and let you shoot structure again, but probably not since they can use (super)capitals and you can't.


On the other hand, you need 1000 people willing to pitch up and defend that POS.

Assuming that the op takes 2 hours, and we're valuing the time of the people involved at 30M per hour, which is what they could make running hi-sec L4s, then the opportunity cost to successfully defend a CSAA in that fashion is around 60 billion ISK (Plus maybe another bill in isotopes, stront, ozone, bubbles, etc etc).

Yeah but they're nullbears, they're idiots in the first place for not properly making use of highsec. I mean, why is blobbing like this even ~tolerated~, smaller should be better.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#208 - 2013-03-12 14:28:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No, income is not really a factor since it's so massively overshadowed by all the other concerns — security, logistics, availability, ease of use etc. If you pay attention, you'll notice that there's actually very little talk about increasing the income, but rather to make the income you already get be proportional to what you have to do to get it in relation to how much you earn elsewhere. It's not the income — it's the costs that matter.

…just like saying that nullseccers are trying to convince anyone that the income sucks when the actual complaint is that the rewards you get for all the effort do not scale properly. Reducing all that to just “income” is to miss out on, oh, pretty much every last detail, making it a BS claim.


Sockpuppet wrote:
The tl;dr is that it quite literally pays better to mine in hi-sec than it does to mine "high end" grav sites in 0.0


Null bear spindoctoring at its finest is on display here, folks.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#209 - 2013-03-12 14:30:06 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
Null bear spindoctoring at its finest is on display here, folks.


Heh, you're calling Malcanis a nullbear spindoctor sockpuppet. Where's my popcorn?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Velicitia
XS Tech
#210 - 2013-03-12 14:52:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
(good stuff)



Nerf hisec ores (Veld, Scord, Omber, etc). Simplest way is a -10% and -5% variant (it still doesn't come close to fixing the problem ... but it's a start). With this, instead of getting "Veldspar", "Condensed Veldspar", or "Dense Veldspar" in a 0.5 system, you'll be getting mostly "Scattered Veldspar" (-10%) and "Sparse Veldspar" (-5%) with a few rocks of "Veldspar" here and there.

Scarcity of "Veldspar" would be on par with how "Dense Veldspar" curently is (IIRC, it doesn't start showing up until 0.8, and you're lucky to find it there).

Once you hit lowsec, repeat with the current progression from 0.8-0.5

0.4 -- Mostly Veld, some conc, little dense (don't even bother with the hisec ores)
0.1 -- pretty much looks like a 0.5 belt does (about equal amounts of veld/conc veld, with a good amount of dense)

Do this for all hisec ores.
Lowsec ores don't change much ... maybe tweak the numbers a bit on their yields.
Nullsec ores don't change much ... maybe tweak the numbers on the more useless yields.

we "might" need more lowsec, as there may not be enough 0.2/0.1 systems to make this work right.

To counter the whining before it's posted:
But now I have to go to lowsec to mine what I used to be able to mine here!!! -- yes, and?
But now mining in hisec sucks!!! -- little risk, little reward.
But now CONCORD won't kill those nasty gankers! -- fleet up, make your own police force -- hell, maybe you can kill the guy BEFORE he kills the miner(s).
But now everything's gonna be more expensive!!! -- HTFU
Think of the newbies! -- they can tackle, right? Seriously though, this isn't going to be game-breaking for them too much, yeah expensive things will hurt them for a while ... but missions and everything else pay out fairly well.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Josef Djugashvilis
#211 - 2013-03-12 15:18:50 UTC
Le Badass wrote:
I don't even know what this thread is about but d*mn there are a lot of goonies in here :-D


Spamming the usual, 'but mom it ain't fair' while telling others to HTFU, Eve is meant to be dark cold and hard etc.

Were null-sec players ever thus, say pre 2007?

This is not a signature.
Josef Djugashvilis
#212 - 2013-03-12 15:21:07 UTC
Andski wrote:
Kane Alvo wrote:
Null bear spindoctoring at its finest is on display here, folks.


Heh, you're calling Malcanis a nullbear spindoctor sockpuppet. Where's my popcorn?


Nah, Malcanis is 'on the stump' as they say.

When he gets enough null-sec votes to be elected to the 'CSM Who', he will tone down tough guy his rhetoric.

This is not a signature.
Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#213 - 2013-03-12 15:35:47 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Were null-sec players ever thus, say pre 2007?

When he gets enough null-sec votes to be elected to the 'CSM Who', he will tone down tough guy his rhetoric.


What you say?!?
Somebody set us up the bomb.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#214 - 2013-03-12 15:41:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Andski wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Here is one of those people now. None of the nullbears want to lose their hi-sec play ground. Null sec is player created so let the players change it if they are bored.

Don’t change hi-sec to counter what we created in null. We made our bed lets lay in it.


if only we could magic away the limitations of nullsec through the powers of the Sandbox(TM)

(we can't)


Did you know that we can only have 1 outpost per system in sov 0.0 because we make bad choices?

(V.V. will tell us what the good choices are later, I'm hoping)



Did anyone force you to go to null? Or did you make a choice like me and decided to go?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#215 - 2013-03-12 15:46:41 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Andski wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Here is one of those people now. None of the nullbears want to lose their hi-sec play ground. Null sec is player created so let the players change it if they are bored.

Don’t change hi-sec to counter what we created in null. We made our bed lets lay in it.


if only we could magic away the limitations of nullsec through the powers of the Sandbox(TM)

(we can't)


Did you know that we can only have 1 outpost per system in sov 0.0 because we make bad choices?

(V.V. will tell us what the good choices are later, I'm hoping)



Did anyone force you to go to null? Or did you make a choice like me and decided to go?


sorry if i find it hard to believe that you're in nullsec when you earnestly believe that "we created nullsec"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#216 - 2013-03-12 15:46:52 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Bane Veradun wrote:
I
[quote=HollyShocker 2inthestink]The basic problem with null sec is with everyone blue and the mind numbing gate camps and POS bashing these people look to their alts whom are in hi-sec for their pvp. These guys would rather log out to their alts and go grief hi-sec rather than deal with the tedium they have created in null.
…except, of course, that the whole “everyone is blue” thing is a myth and that the tedium is caused by the mechanics involved.

That's why they are describing how to fix those things rather than rant and cry about wanting to impose PvP on highsec (another myth). Null has been left ruined for a long time, and they'd prefer not to have to play in highsec.

Here is one of those people now. None of the nullbears want to lose their hi-sec play ground. Null sec is player created so let the players change it if they are bored.

Don’t change hi-sec to counter what we created in null. We made our bed lets lay in it.

"We", hahaha. Obvious troll spotted.

We dropped stations that have hardly any slots and POSes that are expensive to run compared to highsec slots.

Let's just go with this.


No, you.



Again I made my own choice to come to null. Like me you knew the differences before you made your choice. If not then shame on you.

Dont like it move back.
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#217 - 2013-03-12 15:54:55 UTC
Yes the stalemate and boredom was and is player created. It should fall to the players to fix it not CCP. I hate going on POS bashes and I hate going on boring roams or the long waits to form fleets but I made my choice just as you did.

I dont blame hi-sec for the situation in null. As an adult I know I can go to hi-sec any time I like just as you can.

Sure there are some things I would like to see made better but it's not hi-secs fault. Either work with what you have or GTFO.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#218 - 2013-03-12 16:03:54 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
How did you miss the 110+ page thread about 2 months ago that covered SOV?


Deliberately. >_>

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2013-03-12 16:10:57 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

On the other hand, you need 1000 people willing to pitch up and defend that POS.

Assuming that the op takes 2 hours, and we're valuing the time of the people involved at 30M per hour, which is what they could make running hi-sec L4s, then the opportunity cost to successfully defend a CSAA in that fashion is around 60 billion ISK (Plus maybe another bill in isotopes, stront, ozone, bubbles, etc etc).

yea. but you have never heard that not every 0.0 alliance is pure carebear alliance.....

And when real POS is in danger good alliance leader will find those soldiers to spend 2 hours.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#220 - 2013-03-12 16:12:41 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

On the other hand, you need 1000 people willing to pitch up and defend that POS.

Assuming that the op takes 2 hours, and we're valuing the time of the people involved at 30M per hour, which is what they could make running hi-sec L4s, then the opportunity cost to successfully defend a CSAA in that fashion is around 60 billion ISK (Plus maybe another bill in isotopes, stront, ozone, bubbles, etc etc).

yea. but you have never heard that not every 0.0 alliance is pure carebear alliance.....

And when real POS is in danger good alliance leader will find those soldiers to spend 2 hours.


Quite so. I was merely pointing out that ~2000 hours of account time is a heavy price to pay to defend an asset in "risk free" 0.0 space.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016