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Exploration, Risk vs. Reward, T3 ships and DED 4/10s
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Makavelia
National Industries
#121 - 2013-03-10 14:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Makavelia
St Mio wrote:
dexington wrote:
St Mio wrote:
b) Low-sec requires you to fly bigger, slower, more expensive to lose ships.
c) Low-sec sites keep you in a probe-able site for longer periods of time, leaving you a sitting duck.

You can clear most low-sec sites flying and battlecruiser, basically it's only 6/10 difficulty that require something better.

St Mio wrote:
Why shouldn't low-sec have combat sites that you can run in an Assualt Frigate without being webbed to death and dying?
Why shouldn't high-sec have exploration sites that require battleships?

Unless you change the gate mechanic to only allow frigs, people are still going to blitz them with bigger ships. Most people will stick to flying what allows you to enter the most sites.

I dunno, the thought at the time was that people might be more willing to run mags and radars sites in low-sec using frigate hulls and AFs because they'd be less likely to get caught by players *shrug*


The game mechanics + low sec exploration for bc/bs is nothing more than an elephant swimming in a sea of sharks. Unless you know or you are the sharks... income (downtime) is terrible or the risk is huge. Not like theirs much of a carrot on a stick to take that risk anyway, given what you can make in high sec.

I can see why not many go low sec.
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-03-10 20:29:56 UTC
Just a suggestion for debate -

What if warping to the second (and subsequent) later rooms had a random chance of moving the whole site into a randomly selected position somewhere in a nearby low security system? That is, the first room is found in high security space and upon activating the acceleration gate, there is a chance that the next room will stay in the same system _or_ the gate was designed as a one-way, small solar system gate that moves you into the next room, which happens to be in low security space?

A few initial "benefits" would be you do not appear in local unless you start talking. As long as you are within the room, probing you down should be harder - one scan something ~might~ be someone's ship with the next scan suddenly appearing blank. But once you finish the site by killing the boss, you appear on local, but your position still needs to be probed down.

Thus you have the option - continue into the unknown exploring and hoping to find riches! Or fear for yourself and your ship and get yourself back to a nearby high security system and wonder what might have been.

Just a bit of randomness instead of site found, zerg site, collect phat lewt.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#123 - 2013-03-11 05:33:33 UTC
Almost all escalations already escalate into low - ie they don't need to make a crazy gate - I'm perfectly capable of scouting a lowsec system and putting a bc / recon / other appropriate ship in and not losing a T3 over it.

I did 1 ded3 (serp narc), 2 ded4s (serp phi) and a bunch of radars last night, and I had 625mil to show for it.

I also did 2 lookouts, 5 hideouts, and 2 watches, and I got 2 escalations, one of which broke at the second step, and the other was from a hideout and didn't go to low. ie 1 in 9 unrateds "completed", and none of them succeeded in sending me to low. I'm fairly doubtful that 11.1% is even a fair percentage for unrateds completing, its pretty optimistic. I have ~37mil to show for the unrateds - which is exactly what I'd expect to see.

ie the problem is that escalations are too unreliable, have too crap loot, and take too long. I would have spent more net time last night on the 37mil from the unrateds than I did on the 625mil from radars/deds.

dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-03-11 06:04:12 UTC
St Mio wrote:
dexington wrote:
St Mio wrote:
b) Low-sec requires you to fly bigger, slower, more expensive to lose ships.
c) Low-sec sites keep you in a probe-able site for longer periods of time, leaving you a sitting duck.

You can clear most low-sec sites flying and battlecruiser, basically it's only 6/10 difficulty that require something better.

St Mio wrote:
Why shouldn't low-sec have combat sites that you can run in an Assualt Frigate without being webbed to death and dying?
Why shouldn't high-sec have exploration sites that require battleships?

Unless you change the gate mechanic to only allow frigs, people are still going to blitz them with bigger ships. Most people will stick to flying what allows you to enter the most sites.

I dunno, the thought at the time was that people might be more willing to run mags and radars sites in low-sec using frigate hulls and AFs because they'd be less likely to get caught by players *shrug*


The problem with sites the only allow small ships to enter, is that they become very safe to sit in them. It would be much the same as FW plex's where you just keep d-scanning the gate to see who is trying to enter, and warp off if you don't like what you see.. As it is now most radar and mag site can be done with assault frigs, most of them have some cruiser but mostly a lot of frigs, nothing a eg. ishkur or destroyer can't handle without any major trouble.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2013-03-11 08:27:44 UTC
Yeah, but the combat sites? I was thinking low-sec could have low-sec sites in addition to the high-sec sites, but with better drop rates. Probably a terrible idea, for reasons people will soon point out to me :P

As for escalations: one of the reasons I'd rather ran a DED than an unrated is because DED always have the loot ship/structure spawning. With unrated sites, too many times you end up going on a wild goose chase where the faction spawn doesn't even show up, let alone drop anything good. And that's without taking into account travelling time, hazard pay for dodging pirates, and labour costs :P
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#126 - 2013-03-11 09:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
St Mio wrote:
Yeah, but the combat sites? I was thinking low-sec could have low-sec sites in addition to the high-sec sites, but with better drop rates. Probably a terrible idea, for reasons people will soon point out to me :P



I don't think its necessarily a bad idea. however if you can sit in them without someone in a bc being able to warp to you, then they'll just be full of people doing that, and if you can't keep the big ships out, they'll blitz it.

Quote:


As for escalations: one of the reasons I'd rather ran a DED than an unrated is because DED always have the loot ship/structure spawning. With unrated sites, too many times you end up going on a wild goose chase where the faction spawn doesn't even show up, let alone drop anything good. And that's without taking into account travelling time, hazard pay for dodging pirates, and labour costs :P


Yeah we all do - which is why the symptom of cherry picking exists. If the mechanism was "figure out" where the hell the escalation was, rather than cointoss-cointoss-cointoss, I'd like them a whole lot more.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#127 - 2013-03-11 10:39:17 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
St Mio wrote:
As for escalations: one of the reasons I'd rather ran a DED than an unrated is because DED always have the loot ship/structure spawning. With unrated sites, too many times you end up going on a wild goose chase where the faction spawn doesn't even show up, let alone drop anything good. And that's without taking into account travelling time, hazard pay for dodging pirates, and labour costs :P


Yeah we all do - which is why the symptom of cherry picking exists. If the mechanism was "figure out" where the hell the escalation was, rather than cointoss-cointoss-cointoss, I'd like them a whole lot more.


I like the escalations, probably because i like the exploration loot lottery, and escalations gives a lot of lottery tickets.

It would be great if the timer was more then 24 hours, if you get them around when server population peeks they can be close to impossible to complete if you need to do a lot of jump through low-sec. Having to fly to the location in a covert ops to reset the timer within 24 hours is a little annoying, especially if it's a lot of jumps.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#128 - 2013-03-12 07:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ueberlisk
People are saying low sec isn't safe for free farming and that sites should be protected from ganks. Fact is that these same people are just too incompetent to learn basic survival mechanics that make low sec the gold mine it is. Have a alt scout or use a cloaky ship to move around, keep hitting dscan while clearing sites and no one can touch you. At least in angel space every combat site can be cleared in a cheap pvp fit bc so it's not like you need to use marauder or anything.
I speak from years of experience in living and exploring in low sec. I think I've lost only 1-2 expensive ships while exploring. Mainly to me being bad or afk.
My advice is to stop crying and actually learn to play the game. If learning basic pvp survival skills feels like too much of a struggle, stay in high sec and fight for the sites with other bears(not that moving into low sec makes you any less of a bear).

Regarding the actual topic about using T3 ships in plexes. You generally want to use the best available ship to complete sites as fast as possible and it makes no sense to limit the sites in that regard. Current limitations are perfectly fine.
Makavelia
National Industries
#129 - 2013-03-12 09:04:27 UTC
Ueberlisk wrote:
People are saying low sec isn't safe for free farming and that sites should be protected from ganks. Fact is that these same people are just too incompetent to learn basic survival mechanics that make low sec the gold mine it is. Have a alt scout or use a cloaky ship to move around, keep hitting dscan while clearing sites and no one can touch you. At least in angel space every combat site can be cleared in a cheap pvp fit bc so it's not like you need to use marauder or anything.
I speak from years of experience in living and exploring in low sec. I think I've lost only 1-2 expensive ships while exploring. Mainly to me being bad or afk.
My advice is to stop crying and actually learn to play the game. If learning basic pvp survival skills feels like too much of a struggle, stay in high sec and fight for the sites with other bears(not that moving into low sec makes you any less of a bear).

Regarding the actual topic about using T3 ships in plexes. You generally want to use the best available ship to complete sites as fast as possible and it makes no sense to limit the sites in that regard. Current limitations are perfectly fine.


Hang on a sec there low-pro captain. Nobody said low sec was hardmode to survive in. Should ''survive'' be your top priority then say ''goodbye'' to anything remotely defined as income.

Oh wait, are you that guy who flys T3 + alt scout?. I bet you play a death knight in wow.
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2013-03-12 09:25:37 UTC
CCP can add some better role for overseer's personal effects .So for example low sec ones can be converted to LP or for sec status gains.That would give low sec explorers better reward that is fixed and not related to loot chance.
High sec ones could stay as they are ,imo that will give much more reason to do them in low.
Maybe it is stupid idea ,but could be good starting point for new ideas.
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#131 - 2013-03-12 10:32:34 UTC
Makavelia wrote:
Ueberlisk wrote:
People are saying low sec isn't safe for free farming and that sites should be protected from ganks. Fact is that these same people are just too incompetent to learn basic survival mechanics that make low sec the gold mine it is. Have a alt scout or use a cloaky ship to move around, keep hitting dscan while clearing sites and no one can touch you. At least in angel space every combat site can be cleared in a cheap pvp fit bc so it's not like you need to use marauder or anything.
I speak from years of experience in living and exploring in low sec. I think I've lost only 1-2 expensive ships while exploring. Mainly to me being bad or afk.
My advice is to stop crying and actually learn to play the game. If learning basic pvp survival skills feels like too much of a struggle, stay in high sec and fight for the sites with other bears(not that moving into low sec makes you any less of a bear).

Regarding the actual topic about using T3 ships in plexes. You generally want to use the best available ship to complete sites as fast as possible and it makes no sense to limit the sites in that regard. Current limitations are perfectly fine.


Hang on a sec there low-pro captain. Nobody said low sec was hardmode to survive in. Should ''survive'' be your top priority then say ''goodbye'' to anything remotely defined as income.

Oh wait, are you that guy who flys T3 + alt scout?. I bet you play a death knight in wow.


I'm not sure if i understand you correctly? You are basically saying knowing how to survive and the ability to make insane isk somehow exclude each other? First you need to know how to survive and watch out for yourself. Then you can farm all day long 24/7 without being in constant danger. There are loads of sites to be done.

I fly loads of shiny things now days but that doesn't mean it's always been like that. I started as a low skill bottom-feeder and slowly worked my way up in isk/ships once i learned how to live and do the sites.

Ps. My DK in WoW was godly.
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#132 - 2013-03-12 10:34:02 UTC
Ana Fox wrote:
CCP can add some better role for overseer's personal effects .So for example low sec ones can be converted to LP or for sec status gains.That would give low sec explorers better reward that is fixed and not related to loot chance.
High sec ones could stay as they are ,imo that will give much more reason to do them in low.
Maybe it is stupid idea ,but could be good starting point for new ideas.


Effects are the fixed isk part of these sites and they are pretty valuable from 5/10 upwards. However I'd love to see some other uses for them.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-03-12 10:45:36 UTC
Ueberlisk wrote:
Ana Fox wrote:
CCP can add some better role for overseer's personal effects .So for example low sec ones can be converted to LP or for sec status gains.That would give low sec explorers better reward that is fixed and not related to loot chance.
High sec ones could stay as they are ,imo that will give much more reason to do them in low.
Maybe it is stupid idea ,but could be good starting point for new ideas.


Effects are the fixed isk part of these sites and they are pretty valuable from 5/10 upwards. However I'd love to see some other uses for them.


I remember CCP Soundwave saying they had considered making it possible to improve security status, using the overseer dog tags.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#134 - 2013-03-12 10:51:14 UTC
Where Ueberlisk lives you can fly a faction fitted Macha to do 5/10 and nobody cares.

❤ Molden Heath

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Makavelia
National Industries
#135 - 2013-03-12 11:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Makavelia
Ueberlisk wrote:

I'm not sure if i understand you correctly? You are basically saying knowing how to survive and the ability to make insane isk somehow exclude each other? First you need to know how to survive and watch out for yourself. Then you can farm all day long 24/7 without being in constant danger. There are loads of sites to be done.

I fly loads of shiny things now days but that doesn't mean it's always been like that. I started as a low skill bottom-feeder and slowly worked my way up in isk/ships once i learned how to live and do the sites.

Ps. My DK in WoW was godly.


I explore within 10-15 jumps around the arzi area.

I'd much apreciate it if you can jump in a bs and give me a 101 on how not to die (yet get loot) around the abundence of -10 pirates that live around here.

I don't typicaly have the opertunity to DT ninja sites.. so if you can get to me around 8 o clock uk time that's more helpful to the times i can play.

If, after you master class of how-to.. i can then run all these plexes, avoid the pirates and still get the lootz i will genuinely pay you 2 bil for your effort.
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#136 - 2013-03-12 12:10:23 UTC
Makavelia wrote:
Ueberlisk wrote:

I'm not sure if i understand you correctly? You are basically saying knowing how to survive and the ability to make insane isk somehow exclude each other? First you need to know how to survive and watch out for yourself. Then you can farm all day long 24/7 without being in constant danger. There are loads of sites to be done.

I fly loads of shiny things now days but that doesn't mean it's always been like that. I started as a low skill bottom-feeder and slowly worked my way up in isk/ships once i learned how to live and do the sites.

Ps. My DK in WoW was godly.


I explore within 10-15 jumps around the arzi area.

I'd much apreciate it if you can jump in a bs and give me a 101 on how not to die (yet get loot) around the abundence of -10 pirates that live around here.

I don't typicaly have the opertunity to DT ninja sites.. so if you can get to me around 8 o clock uk time that's more helpful to the times i can play.

If, after you master class of how-to.. i can then run all these plexes, avoid the pirates and still get the lootz i will genuinely pay you 2 bil for your effort.


Well to me it looks like you are trying to make isk inside hornet's nest. You could try to find a bit more quiet area that isn't so packed at your TZ. That's my 101.

Machariel is basically THE best ship for the job. It's faster than dramiel and packs more dps than dreadnaught while being basically free. If you have a scouting alt already i suggest you use that 2bil to get yourself a mach and start making isk.
Bibosikus
Air
#137 - 2013-03-12 12:26:44 UTC
There was a time when scanning was a truly niche profession. Quests, sifts, pursuits and combs, along with much beard-stroking and smoke & mirrors.. And lots of coffee. I loved the old scanning system. We'll never get it back, but sometimes I think it would solve a lot of this overcrowding.
Tbh St Mio's list is a precis of the options open to CCP when it comes to tweaking exploration. It's definitely op, especially in the way guys can run a dedicated rigged scanner/booster T3 with a T2-tanked Loki that can run a 4/10 in five minutes flat...
I can and have made huge quantities of isk this way but it becomes deathly boring. The only fun part is racing for the drop which I usually so because the boosted Loki runs rings around most explore fits.
Yes it needs changing, and I definitely vote for making it more difficult somehow. I don't see why it should be a newbie profession at all.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#138 - 2013-03-12 12:41:01 UTC
Bibosikus wrote:
There was a time when scanning was a truly niche profession. Quests, sifts, pursuits and combs, along with much beard-stroking and smoke & mirrors.. And lots of coffee. I loved the old scanning system. We'll never get it back, but sometimes I think it would solve a lot of this overcrowding.
Tbh St Mio's list is a precis of the options open to CCP when it comes to tweaking exploration. It's definitely op, especially in the way guys can run a dedicated rigged scanner/booster T3 with a T2-tanked Loki that can run a 4/10 in five minutes flat...
I can and have made huge quantities of isk this way but it becomes deathly boring. The only fun part is racing for the drop which I usually so because the boosted Loki runs rings around most explore fits.
Yes it needs changing, and I definitely vote for making it more difficult somehow. I don't see why it should be a newbie profession at all.


Heh. In a same way tornado or hurricane can do that site in 5 minutes. If you ask me, 4/10 loot should be nerfed into oblivion as it is by far the best isk/h site in the game at the moment.
If you want exploration to be more difficult, move to low sec or null sec and do the harder sites :D.
Cypher Decypher
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#139 - 2013-03-12 17:19:46 UTC
Ueberlisk wrote:

..If you want exploration to be more difficult, move to low sec or null sec and do the harder sites :D.


We did exactly that Blink
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#140 - 2013-03-12 17:24:11 UTC
Bibosikus wrote:
There was a time when scanning was a truly niche profession. Quests, sifts, pursuits and combs, along with much beard-stroking and smoke & mirrors.. And lots of coffee. I loved the old scanning system. We'll never get it back, but sometimes I think it would solve a lot of this overcrowding.


Yeah, but it was also a pretty dumb system at the same time.

Quote:

especially in the way guys can run a dedicated rigged scanner/booster T3 with a T2-tanked Loki that can run a 4/10 in five minutes flat...


Yeah, you don't really need a booster/scanner to do this, I'm pretty sure ANY t3 (even proteus) can do hisec 4/10s in five minutes flat while also scanning with the same ship....

Some first-hand PI tips