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Fixing sov is impossible under Eve's current FiS mechanics
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Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#41 - 2013-03-12 10:55:15 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:

The only way to break up these super coalitions is a complete reworking on how travel is accomplished in eve, it takes to little time and effort to cross space.



Who said we'd even want to? Super coalitions are here to say. The only problem we have is that they won't fight each other.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#42 - 2013-03-12 10:57:07 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
For years players have been suggesting solutions to the current sov problem. Players have suggested many methods of making sov work for more players. Making null security space accessible to both the small alliances and the big alliances.

However, this goal is impossible because of Eve's current flying in space mechanics. The big reason why null security space is impossible for small alliances is simply Eve is to "small". I put small in quotations because the game world is certainly large enough for everyone to live and make their isk in. Eve is small in that it is far to easy to cross the map for large powers.
In Orwell's1984, serenity server, tranquility, and to some extent our world you have only 3 real super groups who run everything because the world is to easy to get across. In ancient times large empires couldn't conquer the whole world no matter their strength because it's just to damn hard to travel and control large territories, much like Eve. In the past where capitals, JF's, and titan bridges were rare making projection of power difficult, but that changed making it so one power could easily absorb everyone creating the current coalition situation.

There is nowhere to hide in Eve from the big guy, the world is a giant flat field populated by a few powers that can easily see and then squash you.

The Solution:
The only way to break up these super coalitions is a complete reworking on how travel is accomplished in eve, it takes to little time and effort to cross space. Yea it is logistically hard but easy from a strategic point of view. Jump drives make long distance travel trivial and large forces can easily cross vast distances within an hour without a titan bridge. The entire stargate network needs to be rethought because there are no barriers in eve, no mountains to cross or chokepoints to hold, just a flat field held by 3 guys you can't hide from.


(Don't move me to the F&I graveyard because I didn't actually suggest anything specific)


Yes the power projection issue isn't a new thing, people have been talking about it in EVE for years.

What it comes down to is: should players be able to make mighty space empires? If yes, where else than 0.0 should they do it. If no, why do you think your wishes should override those of the tens of thousands who are evidently content to play in that style?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#43 - 2013-03-12 10:58:04 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:

The only way to break up these super coalitions is a complete reworking on how travel is accomplished in eve, it takes to little time and effort to cross space.



Who said we'd even want to? Super coalitions are here to say. The only problem we have is that they won't fight each other.



Come to think of it, where has the cry for their disbandment come from? There's nothing inherently game breaking about them. People can choose to work together. FA and Goonswarm can be in a coalition so long as they say their in a coalition. Nothing C.C.P. can do will change that! Only way to kill a super coalition is to actually kill it with ships and bashing.

I think that the cry to break up HBC and CFC and NC's coalition is dumb and procreated by people who don't actually understand human nature and what the state of sov politics really is.
Acac Sunflyier
The Ascended Academy
#44 - 2013-03-12 10:59:35 UTC
Also the OP's idea doesn't do anything other than add a few extra hoops people have to jump through. That isn't a solution it's just adding busy work.
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-03-12 11:03:27 UTC
I agree that it is a problem but as pointed out the rage will be strong.

One way is a simple speed to capital jumps, so like warping it takes time to actually cross that space, expecially if you make it so that different caps have different jump timers, so a carrier may be fastest followed by dreads, rorquals, supers and finally titans.

It doesnt have to be a long timer and can be accounted for as a jump drive spool up or actual travel time.
Anyway, just a thought.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#46 - 2013-03-12 11:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Jump drives in every ship, no cyno needed.

Null empires collapse overnight.

The wild of null returns to the wild it once was.


Edit for those with longer attention spans:

That's right, make every ship jump capable. Redo fuel costs from current flat rates to ((ship mass x distance traveled)/fuel conservation skill). So frigates could jump for very little fuel (important considering their small cargo bays) while larger ships would suck more fuel (but they can hold it).

Travel now comes in three flavors:
1) Stargate. As before.
2) Cyno jump. As before.
3) Unguided Jump. New! Shiny! Without a cyno beacon the jumping ship arrives (random) 10 to 100 AUs from the star in a completely random direction. Might want to move before you get scanned down.

Probable effects:
1) Current jump freighters become irrelevant.
2) -10.0 pirates have an easier time getting in and out of hisec to do their dirty work.
3) Hisec pilots have an easier time getting in and out of low/null to their honest work.
4) Gate camps become as obsolete as heavy drones.
5) Rethinking of all existing defense/denial strategies because all the current one's just went out the window.
6) Rethinking off all existing sov mechanics, because those also went right out the window.
7) Only just begun the Ice Wars have.
8) Total Anarchy is fun.
9) More high/low/null traffic than ever before.
10) If nothing else you'd all actually have something new to whine about.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-03-12 11:52:13 UTC
I already posted this hundreds of times in last 4 years. Problem lies in the focus on HUGE fleet battles caused by everythign sov related being so dam hard to kill.

Force alliances to push for a more active defense. Make moon mining modules stay OUtside POS shields. and make them be VERY fragile. Fragile enough that a gang of 8 SUBCAPITAL ships can disable them in a few minutes.

That will make impossible to keep control of vast territories because you need to actively partrol and protect your moon mining capabilities. That make possible guerrilla warfare, pestering your larger enemies and makes much harder to exapnd into HUGE territories.

That way you do not need to amass HUGE fleets to damage an enemy that resides in 2-3 station 50 jumps from where you want to attack. You can simply go there, disable their production and begone when their capital fleet arrives. DO that for a few weeks and it will become simpler for them to abandon any system that they cannot actively patrol and respond within 5 minutes .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-03-12 12:59:54 UTC
Power projection is a problem, not the problem, and a relatively minor one.

I'll add that you already suggested this a few months ago, and you were resolutely slapped around the thread for your painful lack of relevant knowledge. Why you thought this time would be any different is beyond me.

Power projection is an integral part of a general fix that addresses substantially more organic, local conflict drivers; on its own it just makes nullsec more boring, and does nothing to address the fundamental problems.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-03-12 14:48:00 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Power projection is a problem, not the problem, and a relatively minor one.

I'll add that you already suggested this a few months ago, and you were resolutely slapped around the thread for your painful lack of relevant knowledge. Why you thought this time would be any different is beyond me.

Power projection is an integral part of a general fix that addresses substantially more organic, local conflict drivers; on its own it just makes nullsec more boring, and does nothing to address the fundamental problems.



Dare to show me where I was slapped anywhere. One thing I do not lack is knowledge and I already prooved that a gazillion time sin this forums on the past 6 years.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-03-12 14:55:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Fearghaz Tiwas
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Power projection is a problem, not the problem, and a relatively minor one.

I'll add that you already suggested this a few months ago, and you were resolutely slapped around the thread for your painful lack of relevant knowledge. Why you thought this time would be any different is beyond me.

Power projection is an integral part of a general fix that addresses substantially more organic, local conflict drivers; on its own it just makes nullsec more boring, and does nothing to address the fundamental problems.



Dare to show me where I was slapped anywhere. One thing I do not lack is knowledge and I already prooved that a gazillion time sin this forums on the past 6 years.


I'm not necessarily agreeing with him, nor am I normally a spelling/grammar troll; but you would do well, when trying to demonstrate that his accusations are unfounded, to check yours for spelling errors. Prooved is not a word. Gazillion = 0 (i.e. is not a thing). And I think you mean times in, not time sin. You did yourself few favours there mate. Well trolled.
mentalkiller
Celestial Eyes
#51 - 2013-03-12 15:01:48 UTC
Wait so you are basically asking CCP to increase the average traveling time from 1 hour to last longer?

More reasons to stay in high sec

/mentalKiller
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-03-12 15:07:35 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Dare to show me where I was slapped anywhere. One thing I do not lack is knowledge and I already prooved that a gazillion time sin this forums on the past 6 years.


Responding to OP.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
#53 - 2013-03-12 15:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Yim Sei
Commander Ted wrote:
.....snippity....
However, this goal is impossible because of Eve's current flying in space mechanics. The big reason why null security space is impossible for small alliances is simply Eve is to "small". I put small in quotations because the game world is certainly large enough for everyone to live and make their isk in. Eve is small in that it is far to easy to cross the map for large powers.
....snip....


May I direct you to this thread regardening increasing the size of New Eden to give more 'new' space to the little guy and reduce the effect of total bloc domination.

Hope it fits here, would be interested in OPs input.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2545031#post2545031

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#54 - 2013-03-12 15:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
To project power in Eve you need to move three things: The ships, the pilots, and the players. We normally think of all three moving together, for example via a jump bridge. But that does not have to be. Lets see what happens as various forms of travel are nerfed, and workarounds are used.

Moving ships is nerfed. Maybe all forms of travel other than gates are removed, or something else is done to slow down ship movement. Workaround: Pre-move ships into position and place jump clones at those locations. Now this does mean you need more ships, so the average size drops. More battleships, fewer Titans. But a large empire can still project power all across their territory almost instantly. The ships do not need to be moved to project power, just the pilots and the players.

Now to stop this we nerf jump clones as well. Workaround: Alts. Preposition alts along with the ships. Now to project power the only thing that needs to be moved are the players. They do that by logging into the proper alt.

To stop that method of projecting power we would need to get rid of alts. Restrict players to one account and one pilot in that account. And that is just not going to happen.

So you can make it a little less convenient to project power across the map, but you cannot stop it.

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Kim Telkin
Love for You
#55 - 2013-03-12 15:36:09 UTC
One possible way to nerf power projection could be as follows:

1) Increase the distance between constellation gates to be roughly as big as the current distance between region gates.
2) Increase the distance between region gates by a factor of 2-5
3) In between regions add way-point systems which connect to the same system containing the region gates.

Picture:
O = system
<--> gate

Before:
O <--------------> O

After:
O<------------------------------------->O
^----------------->O<------------------^

The distance between region gates should generally be large enough so that you can't titan bridge across it. Giving the option of taking the jump gates, or setting up an intermediate cyno in the way-point system.

For people traveling via stargate, no extra time needed. For people traveling via cyno, the world just got a lot bigger requiring beacheads (in the way-point systems) and more planning to really project power outwards from home.


Alternatively, remove the direct stargate between regions and force everyone to use the startgates through the waypoint systems. If you like bottlenecks and gate camps it could be fun Pirate
Big Jim Slade
Kentucky Fried Nightmare
#56 - 2013-03-12 15:50:16 UTC
Problem is players, not mechanics. Time for a different game.
Ginger Barbarella
#57 - 2013-03-12 16:38:20 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Nex apparatu5 wrote:
As soon as someone figures out a way to do that without making half of eve rage quit, I'm sure it'll happen. Until then, threads like these don't serve a real purpose.

Doubt people would rage quit, on the contrary you'll see life in null like never before.

If anything those that unsub and predict an apocalypse would quickly say "Oh, wasn't I silly. I am not going to pretend I was never against this."

Unsubbing is a powerful tool of persuasion.


Failquitters have proven that not to be the case.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#58 - 2013-03-12 17:29:56 UTC
One of the ideas presented above is to add or change structures to that there are many small targets for small groups to blow up. The goal is to make things easier for small groups and more difficult for large groups. The large groups have an issue because they always have to have combat assets near every structure so to defend it as soon as it gets attacked. But there is an issue: Time zones.

To prevent your small targets from getting blown up you need to patrol them. But to do that you need sufficient people on line in all time zones. To do that you got to be big. This runs counter to the entire "make things easier for small groups and more difficult for large groups" goal. What you would be saying is that to be in null you got to be so big you can field a defense force in every time zone. There could not be a small sov holding group in Null under such conditions.

Adding reinforcement timers would solve the time zone issue, but negate the need for the owners of the structure to actively patrol, allowing them to hold vast areas as they do now.

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Zhade Lezte
#59 - 2013-03-12 17:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhade Lezte
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Failquitters have proven that not to be the case.


Well yes, *unsubbing* fully (aka: not renewing when your time runs out) is a powerful tool. Loudly proclaiming you will unsub if you don't get what you want NOW just makes you look childish.

Re: Force projection. To add the oppositions viewpoint on this, it would make our own gameplay a lot more tedious (as many have said), gets rid of the interesting political aspects of these huge coalitions, the drama that unfolds and threatens them from within (you didn't really think that we were all emotionless drones marching in lockstep, did you?), the diplomacy and propaganda utilized to try to keep these people so far past the monkeysphere from feeling like their coalition members are outsiders they truly don't know, etc.

So yeah. You would possibly lose subs which may or may not be worth losing, you would potentially lose massive fleet battles as the empires grew smaller and more isolated which, even if they are to many not fun participating in, are fascinating to many who read of eve news on the outside and consider subbing to be part of this world, etc. We'd gain possibly what the OP said we'd gain in return, don't really feel like analyzing what he said to see if he missed anything.

I wonder if there is not a compromise that would allow more people to have a place in the sandbox. CCP once mentioned the possibility of sov 0.0 areas (entire regions?) that could be only accessible from WH space. Much like wormholes have their own culture and their own coalitions are much less massive, these pocket regions could be somewhat separate ecosystems that are yet still connected with the eve single shard world.

It would certainly allow new blood, though said new blood in each region would likely gather under a single banner per region (or be driven out). Is that a problem? A region to an alliance seems acceptable to me.

Edit: People mentioning small gang targets in null sov is a good point. A MAJOR factor that the OP hasn't mentioned in encouraging large coalitions is that every timer in dominion sov requires overwhelming force (read:numbers) to win, and if you don't have those numbers you are better off just not bothering. And you have to win every timer, instead of just doing better than the opposition. If you can't see how that encourages ~the blob~ I don't know what I can do to help you.
Terajima Kazumi
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-03-12 17:48:13 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

What it comes down to is: should players be able to make mighty space empires? If yes, where else than 0.0 should they do it. If no, why do you think your wishes should override those of the tens of thousands who are evidently content to play in that style?

Most nullsec dwellers admit that sov is broken. While a lot of the distaste for current sov mechanics is centered around how terribly boring large scale sov wars are, there's no doubt that much of the pain we experience is self-inflicted; our empires are so large that there are no little wars lef to fight.

We should be able to build mighty space empires, but it should be hard to do so. And not just hard because it consumes a lot of time (read: logistics, management, etc), but hard because the barbarians are always at the gate and the only way to keep what you have is to fight for it.
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