Warfare & Tactics

Probably this question has been asked an answered 1000 times or more, so one more time won't hurt. Much.

Everyone knows that the best way not to get tackled is to have more warp core stabilization than a potential enemy has scramble. There are times however, when one has the wrong fit in the wrong place (you were doing something else and checked the place out for gankers well in advance, etc.) and you get scrambled and can't warp. What do you do then? Are there modules that can break the scramble, if only for enough time that it takes to warp out?

My Thoughts :

As a new Evian, my thoughts are worth . . . well, not much. But, in order to get the discussion going in the right direction, I'll share them anyway.

Does the warp scrambler require a target lock in order to work? If the answer is yes, then some modules which break target lock may allow enough time to warp out. Or, if you have a cloaking device, once target lock is broken one can cloak, which . . . I don't know - does that mean you can't be scrambled maybe?

Does the warp scrambler require energy to work? If the answer is yes, one could mount energy drains and destabilizers, which after a while would drain the tackler of the energy needed to sustain the scram.

These are just my initial guesses at how to resolve that situation - in a solo mode.

Any and all valid ideas, meaning they have been tested and they work, would be a very useful contribution to the thread. My goal is to mount modules that could break a warp scramble somehow, but would also be useful in other cases, such as ratting, incusions, or missions. I could mount 4 or 5 core stabs, but that seems like overkill and a waste if there are other solutions.

Fire away, guys + gals. And, yes, my battlecruiser got blown up last night - by a goll durn frigate doing what I have since learned was a speed tank orbit. My guns couldn;t hit crap, and I couldn't warp out. It didn't help that I was in the middle of a ratting battle against and NPC cruiser, which was hitting for 300 damage a pop, either. Frustrating, and a bit stupid on my part. Not to mention embarassing. Trying to learn from it . . . and that means from you all.

Double webs, drones, medium neut, high tracking guns.

Also: newbies these days seem to have way too much money, belt ratting in a BC before they know what's what.

Yes that was pretty much the situation. However, the ganker was orbiting at around 2000m or less - that's the reason none of my guns could hit. I was also webified I think, because my speed was around 60 m/s instead of 202. Dude has 3 or 4 years playtime and had a T2 or whatever gun in the kill report.

My thought is that if someone wants to try to speed tank with a close orbit, then I could have an ECM module to break the scram - I have a lot of ECM modules I've made or captured, but I can't figure out what to do with them. The descriptions and functions of the various ECM / ECCM modules leave a lot to be desired - so I'm left to wonder which one would work in that situation. ECM Burst modules only - or are there other names and types of modules that break target lock.

But your post here is valuable because it confirms that the tackler must have target lock to maintain the scram. So I will start researching modules that can break that - even if they will only work in those situations where the attacker is close enough. If the attacker is further away and my guns can hit, I'll accept that battle.

Also another idea derived from my mistakes was that I had fitted a microwarpdrive which was, of course, totally non-functional once the attack developed. Afterburners, however, I assume, will still work when you are scrammed - but will also still be effected by a webifier. Nevertheless, if I had any ability to manuver, I might have been able to hit with the guns a few times (and at roughly 400 points per hit it might have altered the dynamic of the fight). Even with a webifier - if I had had a 10MN afterburner I would still have been able to move somewhat - as it was my speed was practically 0 which also enable the NPC full hits and damage.

Thanks.

Incidentally, great info in your sig - I am a serious student of WW2 and was only superficially aware of Wizna. Thanks again.

The correct number of warp core stabilizers on a combat ship is, almost always, 0.

ECM can break target, and thus break a tackle, yes. Energy neutralizers can drain their cap and, again, break a tackle. A flight of light combat drones could very well be enough to thwart the attack you're describing. If you're faster than them, you can burn away until they lose the point due to distance.

You're probably asking the wrong question, though. This is definitely an ounce of prevention Vs. pound of cure sort of thing. Keeping an eye on local and using your directional scanner to avoid being tackled in the first place is vastly more likely to keep you in your ship, and doesn't require any fitting compromises at all.

at 2000 meters then neuts are viable. You will zap a frigates meagre capacitor in moments . Scout drones are also good against smaller ships and the number one threat against fast tacklers.

The way I understand it is that ECM bursts are meant to be fitted on battleships and supposedly don't work very well on smaller ships and may even break the users own lock if used on a smaller ship.

Just a bit of general information about the ECM burst. it will count as an act of aggression against all ships within its range. Not a problem in lower security areas but in high sec if the attacking player can sneak another ship within your ECM range then Concord will will be called against you.

Some people use them in PVE and another player then sneaks up on them to catch a hit from the ECM burst to call in Concord.

Point 2 : there are dozens of different ECM modules. I cant figure out which one works in this situation, and, as I mentioned, the descriptions are kind of cryptic.

Point 3 : Neut is game lingo for . . . draining their energy? So anything that either destabs their energy or vampires it will drain cap and break lock?

Point 1 : The outrunning thing was obvious, even to me . . . except that in the case mentioned I couldn't run and the attacker knew what he was doing : he had me down to 60 m/s and circled me so my guns couldn't hit anything (speed tanking I guess, it's really knowing exactly what range and what speed will exceed your typical enemy's weapon tracking speed - I should mention that I anticipated this and had a rig to increase tracking, but my big guns weren't much helped) . My fitted microwarp didn't work, which I assume was because warp destabs also affect microwarps. So, as I mentioned, I was thinking about using afterburners as a counter - but no BC with any burners is going to outrun a frigate . . . unless one can webify the frigate and combine that with some other tactics.

I guess the idea of breaking lock and cloaking is a no - go since no one has taken that up - wouldnt have worked in that situation because I was also under attack by an NPC cruiser.

What I am getting so far is that the typical counters involve Running if possible (wasn't here), ECM and Energy drains to break lock, and also attacking (which, again, didn't work here because the attacker was doing a form of speed tanking I guess).

One mistake I made was returning drones to bay from their attack on the NPC. I should have had them attack the frigate, but it probably wouldn't have made a difference since the guy was also replacing shield loss quite quickly from the guns that were hitting (I had 2 slots with 180mm dual autos, which had a better tracking rate - specifically for short range defense).

For a situation in which someone is doing a close orbit and nullifying your bigger guns, I also had the thought of fitting a Smart Bomb, which does a reliable amount of damage at 4k or less - it isn't much damage, but in combination with things that do hit, like smaller guns and missiles, it might be enough to dissuade an attack like this.

Anyway, keep em coming. Thanks to those who have genuinely tried to help. If any other new Evians are reading this, it is surely clarifying matters somewhat. - and I;ll take all the 7eet jackhole comments from the others just to serve*that* purpose.

Let me give you yet another example of my confusion here. As if more were required.

I have a BPC for ECM - Spatial Destabilizer I. The description for this says : " Projects random bursts of gravitons that disrupt accurate targeting. As expected this system works best against Gravimetric targeting systems."

Does this mean that this module will break a target lock? Or does it just reduce accuracy? When I target things, I don't use a target painter, so what kind of target locking am I doing? Is it Gravimetric or what? What kind of targetting is typically used in a 1 on 1 gank situation to scram the warp core?

See what I mean? These descriptions are meant for people who know what all the other terms, systems, and mechanics are, knowledge that takes months or years to acquire, usually at some cost.

Self destruct will give you the result you require.

As one of my alliance members says 'Oh nice stabby fit - Do they make them for men too?'

Every race has its own "flavor" of sensors.
Minmatar = Ladar
Amarr = Radar
Gallente = Magnetometric
Caldari = Gravimetric


ECM modules are similarly flavored. A gravimetric ECM will work well against Caldari ships, but less so against other ships. There is also a "multispectral" ECM that, if it isn't obvious, is decent (but not the best) against all flavors of sensor.

All of this refers strictly to the the actual "lock on" mechanism of the ship itself. It has nothing to do with the activation or function of any individual modules on the ship, except insomuch as they require a lockon to function.

Additionally, ECM is chance based. Every time it cycles, there is a chance it will jam your target. If it succeeds, they will lose all locks, and be unable to lock onto anything for the duration of the cycle. If it fails, nothing happens.

For the scenario you described, most options are going to have some weakness.
-ECM is chance-based - you may be dead before you get a successful jam off. ECM is usually utilized in dedicated setups on specialized ships, with specialized rigs and signal distortion amplifiers to maximize its effectiveness. The cycle time is quite slow (20 seconds?). A single ECM module will be a gamble (at a significant fitting cost) in a 1v1 situation and will be totally worthless 2v1. If you're only going to have one, it almost has to be a multispectral.

-Medium neutralizers - a tech 2 one has a 12.6 km range. If they close orbit you can get them, but a faster target with a warp disruptor can keep you pinned out to 24 km - 28 if they overheat. You may not be able to reach them at all. This might put them out far enough that your guns can reliably hit them - there are a lot of potential variables at play here. If they're cap boosted, they can also offset the effect of the neut (with that said, neuts are an amazing pvp module).

-Drones - can be destroyed, but honestly? This is probably your best bet against a frigate-sized target. A flight of warrior IIs can be dangerous to most frigates. ECM drones are also an option.

-ECM burst - probably a poor choice.
-Smartbomb - they can probably outrange a medium smartbomb and still be under your guns. Also, the damage isn't going to be much to write home about.

Other things:
Watch local chat. If you're in low sec, and there are other people in the system, they want to kill you. This is your best friend.

Directional scanner - is your other best friend.

Consider flying a smaller ship. A cruiser (or even a frigate) is capable of ratting in low-sec. They are cheaper to lose than a BC, and they are easier to get away in.

You should probably also seek some general ship fitting advice - consider posting a fit in Newb Q&A or Ships & Fittings and asking for input.

Point 2: There are 2 Basic types of ECM Modules....

ECM Burst... Which breaks the lock of nearby ships (they need to be close 6 + 6 km). It is chance based, and the target can immediately lock again so should be pre-aligned and attempt to warp right after power it off.

ECM Jammer... These come in 5 flavors... One for each race, and one that is multispec to jam out every race. The chance of success of these modules not very high, even on a frigate, and moreso with the multispec... unless you are in a ship bonused to Jam Strength (Griffin, Kitsune, Blackbird, Rook, Falcon, Scorpion, Widow).

Point 3: Neut is short for Energy Neutralizer. Energy Neutralizers consume a healthy amount of your cap in exchange for taking away even more of your enemies cap. This is different than an energy vampire (aka Nos), which steels some of your enemies cap and gives it to you (assuming they have cap to give). Generally speaking, the Nos is how a well-fit frigate counters a Neut by steeling enough cap to keep tackle and guns going.

Combat drones can fend off a frigate... but they can also be easily destroyed. recalling and redeploying drones is a good way to help keep them alive while attacking your opponent... but many ships will destroy them quickly and efficiently enough that they won't "save you".

Quick FYI: Generally mixing gun types on a ship is less than ideal... and very newbish...

Additional FYI: There are two types of tackle modules. The warp disruptor which requires lots of cap, has a long range (~24 km), and provides 1 point of warp disruption. And the warp scrambler, which requires less cap, has a short range (~10 km), provides 2 points of warp disruption... AND shuts down an enemies microwarp drive (MWD)