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Carriers/Dreadnoughts rebalancing on the horizon?
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Mr Blue
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#81 - 2013-02-12 09:04:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Blue
Lol at all the people saying the chimera is worse than the thanny for dedicated shield triaging.
The only good situation to ever use a thanny is to hide it among other armor tanked carriers and try to ninja triage.

Besides that the chimera beats it in any compartment, only "issue" with the chimera is that its rather cpu tight and cap intensive, tho its much bether at accually tanking incomming damage than a thanny ect.
I guess people that fight very small gang pvp where people is less likerly to primary the triage might find thannys/niddhuggors decent, but for any fight where its more than 50-100 hostiles on the field you prob wish you had a chimera . just my 5 cents.

about the rev and moros, generally everyone actknowledges that the archon is bether than the thanny for 99% of the situations in the current eve. Therefor is there such a bad thing to have the moros slightly bether than the rev.? sounds like balance for me.

The race that seems to pull the shortest straw in capital warfare is the minmatar. Their entire capital+supercap garage is crap, with maybe exception of the ragnarok.
Denuo Secus
#82 - 2013-03-11 12:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Liang Nuren wrote:
...As to the Phoenix and Naglfar: I don't think capital missiles are fixable as a concept....


Could you explain this a bit more detailed please? Assuming xl missiles will be fixed so they are dealing better damage to moving capitals, I don't really see much of an issue anymore then.

Flight time? Sure, in large fleets. But mid sized I think the argument for sub captial missiles works here too: as soon as it takes long enough to finish a target, better damage projection of missiles becomes an advantage over turrets.

Also blapping: missiles cannot do this. But in return their applied damage cannot be reduced to literally zero due to tracking. With some tweaking xl missiles should be able to deal BS class damage to BSs...reliable. Sounds like a fair trade to me.

Wrong? If so, why?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2013-03-11 12:18:49 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
But in return their applied damage cannot be reduced to literally zero due to tracking.

Sure they can. I've had missiles hit me for zero damage before, and I've had missiles completely not hit me at all.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Denuo Secus
#84 - 2013-03-11 12:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
But in return their applied damage cannot be reduced to literally zero due to tracking.

Sure they can. I've had missiles hit me for zero damage before, and I've had missiles completely not hit me at all.


XL torps of a max skilled Phoenix go 2132 m/s. So a BC can outrun them. Not sure if this is a valid concern of a dread....but as I mentioned, I think xl missiles aren't in a good shape atm. Alone the fact a carrier can speed tank them is wrong imho. So they need a fix. Maybe also a slight missile velocity fix.

My question was more about Liang's argument xl missiles are not fixable at all.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2013-03-11 12:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Yeah, I don't agree with that either. A Leviathan has no trouble doing decent DPS to capitals and supercaps. Obviously it has problems with smaller stuff, but some adjustment to base explosion velocity and explosion radius can make up for this.

The problem with the Phoenix, therefore, is not just with the missiles (albeit base 20 m/s explosion velocity is really low) but also how the siege module cuts that by 60%.

Maybe... base 50 m/s would be better? And explosion radius reduced to 1200 m.
Who knows?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#86 - 2013-03-11 12:53:43 UTC
Remove capital missiles, give caldari railguns, minmatar can do fine with just guns (who ever decided it was fun to let players have to train 2 weapons up to capital level to use 1 ship??)

Carriers need to be evened out a bit so they can all do something good (and not just transporting ships)
Dreads need some tweaking (mainly get rid of the damn missiles) and specific roles/bonus'

Supercarriers:
Give them the normal carrier bonus, should have a better tank than a carrier, needs a deployment module (like the rorq) to be able to launch fighter bombers and gain the current bonus' instead of just carrier bonus running on heavy water.

Titans:
Doomsday is only possible when deployed, deployment should take like 1 min, 10 minutes to cycle it off. Also needs to be a bit better when not deployed than what it is now.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2013-03-11 12:59:10 UTC
Djana Libra wrote:
Remove capital missiles, give caldari railguns, minmatar can do fine with just guns (who ever decided it was fun to let players have to train 2 weapons up to capital level to use 1 ship??)

I don't really think that making two races of capital ships field the same weapons would be a good thing, and railguns don't seem to be a weapon that translates well to capital ship combat.

Djana Libra wrote:
Supercarriers:
Give them the normal carrier bonus, should have a better tank than a carrier, needs a deployment module (like the rorq) to be able to launch fighter bombers and gain the current bonus' instead of just carrier bonus running on heavy water.

Titans:
Doomsday is only possible when deployed, deployment should take like 1 min, 10 minutes to cycle it off. Also needs to be a bit better when not deployed than what it is now.

The main combat advantage of supercarriers and titans are the fact that they don't have to be completely immobile in order to do their main job, unlike carriers or dreadnoughts. There's no reason this needs to go away.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-03-11 12:59:13 UTC
I thought the local jump fuel type was a bigger factor than anything else when it came to picking the race of capital ship to fly. I mean come on, they all do their jobs quite well. Having capitals at all, having good FCs and good intel, good plans, and a good subcap fleet for backup will do far more to win a war than nitpicking what kind of drapes look better in which fighter's windows, or what range from the station makes for the best dreadnought photos.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2013-03-11 13:00:21 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I thought the local jump fuel type was a bigger factor than anything else when it came to picking the race of capital ship to fly. I mean come on, they all do their jobs quite well. Having capitals at all, having good FCs and good intel, good plans, and a good subcap fleet for backup will do far more to win a war than nitpicking what kind of drapes look better in which fighter's windows, or what range from the station makes for the best dreadnought photos.

Yeah, cause it's not like the ships are different at all and have different capabilities... Roll

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2013-03-11 13:52:21 UTC
Naglfar fix confirmed.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=214280&find=unread

Quote:
Naglfar
I'll start us off with the Nag change. Many of you know that in the past CCP has expressed a desire to remove the outdated and very annoying split weapon systems on the Naglfar Dreadnaught, but that fitting a third capital turret on the hull was too problematic and held up the idea. Instead of requiring a complete redesign of the classic Naglfar hull to do our rebalancing, or waiting until our comprehensive Dread rebalance to touch this most glaring flaw, CCP Ytterbium decided that we'd get the job done using the tools available to us.

So we're removing both the two launcher hardpoints from the Nag, and replacing them with a fixed +50% Capital Projectile Weapon damage role bonus that puts the two-turreted Nag on roughly equal footing with its three turret peers. We're also removing some fitting to compansate for no longer needing the launchers fitted (although in practice this is fairly insignificant). You can expect us to swap the capital launchers for capital turrets in the build requirements at some point soonish (same way as we did for the Ragnarok) but I unfortunately cannot guarantee that the build requirement changes will happen at exactly the same time as the ship stat and bonus changes.

Full Naglfar changes are:
New Fixed Role Bonus: +50% Capital Projectile Weapon Damage
-2 High Slots
-2 Launcher Slots
-144000 Powergrid
-180 CPU

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Signal11th
#91 - 2013-03-11 13:53:15 UTC
Caps will get "balanced" as soon as the GSF come up against someone who uses carriers 90% for defence of their systems.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2013-03-11 13:59:18 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Caps will get "balanced" as soon as the GSF come up against someone who uses carriers 90% for defence of their systems.

lol, u mad

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#93 - 2013-03-11 14:02:54 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
Carriers
Its bordering on a joke how bad Minmatar are, how crap Capital Missiles are, and yet its been ... ooo - hard to say - how many years since people started complaining about cap imbalance - armour doctrine is the only doctrine - DONT TRAIN MINMATAR CAPITALS, DO TRAIN AMARR/GALLENTE.


But but but... it's vertical!

That attribute HAS to find proper penalties, doesn't it? X

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Signal11th
#94 - 2013-03-11 14:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Caps will get "balanced" as soon as the GSF come up against someone who uses carriers 90% for defence of their systems.

lol, u mad


It was an attempt at a little humour but haven't seen a thread blaming the GSF for "something"tm for at least 30mins..so i thought I would jump into the breach so to speak.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-03-11 14:09:25 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Caps will get "balanced" as soon as the GSF come up against someone who uses carriers 90% for defence of their systems.

lol, u mad


It was an attempt at a little humour but haven't seen a thread blaming the GSF for "something"tm for at least 30mins..so i thought I would jump into the breach so to speak.

It's easy, fun and profitable to blame GOON.
And I say GOON because that's what pubbies call them.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#96 - 2013-03-11 14:12:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Caps will get "balanced" as soon as the GSF come up against someone who uses carriers 90% for defence of their systems.

lol, u mad

It was an attempt at a little humour but haven't seen a thread blaming the GSF for "something"tm for at least 30mins..so i thought I would jump into the breach so to speak.

It's easy, fun and profitable to blame GOON.
And I say GOON because that's what pubbies call them.

GEWNs !!!!!!

Ironically, we're of course trying to build a massive blob of sentry carriers, so...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2013-03-11 14:14:57 UTC
Yeah, I just started an alt for that exact reason.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Denuo Secus
#98 - 2013-03-11 14:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Nag fix this summer: [Summer] T1 Frigate Polish Pass and Naglfar fix

EDIT: nvm..already posted here OopsLol
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#99 - 2013-03-11 14:34:35 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yeah, I just started an alt for that exact reason.

Of course you did, we're some sort of wierd hivemind that spits out tons of rifters (or I guess now slashers) but has a wall of stuff behind that to crack your head open on.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#100 - 2013-03-11 14:43:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Buhhdust Princess
As I see it, Carriers are defined in their roles pretty well:

Archon - Tag team triage/RR good Cap Xfer Capabilities, works great in a team.
Chimera - As above, but for shield Great tanks on both.

Thanatos - Combat carrier, great for maximum DPS carriers, either a small-gang vs med-gang tide turner. Requires support from Archon/Chimera in larger fights.
Nidhoggur - Suicide Triage / Great RR repper, Great in small-med gang warfare. Requires capacitor support from Archon or Chimera in larger battles (Can mean great results when it comes to repairing Sub-Capitals).

Dreads however, are not.

Moros - Great Blapping power, HUGE amount of DPS, dies fairly easy (as all dreads do). Requires carrier support to be super effective (as all dreads do).
Revelation - Great tracking/Blapping power, Reasonble DPS, as above.
Naglfar - Terrible, 2 guns track, 2 missile launchers dont, terrible DPS at a cap of around 10,000 at a push. Terrible tank layout, requires too much isk to be vaguely useful and is a waste of time unless hitting an un-explosive-resisted tower.
Phoenix - Worse than nag, can't blap anything unless it's sat still, HUGE volley on it, though, terrible dps. Tank is ok, fairly poor comparing to some others, as slave sets can really affect the armour dreads, whereas Crystals don't really help you when it comes to group PvP keeping a phoenix alive.

That's my 2 cents. Hope its worth it ^^
-Buhhd