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Gallente L4 Ship Comparison
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Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#21 - 2011-10-28 19:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sydney Nelson
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Sydney Nelson wrote:
The keys to fitting the Hype properly are simple:
Use an ACR so you can get 425s on it.
Use 2 tracking computers (swap scripts based on rat range).
You need one-less Hardener than most other ships because it has an armor-rep bonus. (This is the thing everybody forgets.)


So here are my issues with this. First, you can get 2 TCs on a Mega, which throws tracking right back in the Mega's favor.

Actually no, you can't. Not unless you drop the DLA or drop-down to Meta on your lows (or spluge for faction). The Mega just doesn't have enough CPU, which is why I quit using it.

Second, it's easier to get the third magstab on a Mega, even given CPU issues (that both ships have, btw).

What?! I can fit 5 Mag-stabs on a Hype. Mag-stabs use LESS CPU than Hardeners (T2 stuff). The Meta stuff is the other way around, but I can STILL fill all the lows (- a repper) with Mag-stabs. I can fit pretty-much anything reasonable on the Hype without going over CPU. It doesn't have any CPU problems. In what situation do YOU have problems getting Mag-stabs on a Hype?

Third, it's much easier to fit a Mega with AB/injector/T2 rails. In fact, I haven't seen a Hyp that can do so adequately.

Not sure why you are putting a Cap Injector on a PVE ship that doesn't need it. Wait! You're one of those people that run the repper non-stop from begging to end of the mission aren't you?

Anyways, if you drop the guns to T2 350s, you can fit a Heavy Cap-Booster on the Hyperion. The Mega can do-it with T2 425s if you fit an ACR and leave the AB off, but the Hype STILL out-damages it LOL! PLUS, you can fit a Collision Accelerator on the Hype where the Mega is using the ACR, and it gets even worse for the Mega.
If you REALLY want to put a Cap-injector on a Hype, it fits just fine, and will still do more DPS than the Mega. If you want a Cap injector AND an AB with T2 rails on the Mega, you have to drop it down to 350s too. I don't see what you mean by it being "much easier"

And finally, the real killer for me is the Hyp's pathetic lock range. With perfect skills you're still looking at 75km -- which barely covers optimal + 1/2 falloff with antimatter. It just seems like you get more engagement options out of the Mega.

I hated the lock-range when I first started flying my Hype! Then I looked at a DPS graph, and realized my Mega was only doing like 125dps over 80km or so. There are VERY few missions where the rats are over 75km, and then, having an AB fit makes-it a non-issue (hard to fit an AB on a Mega). Just for you info: Optimal + 1/2 fall-off for the Hype WITH 2 TCs fit is 51km. I'd say that's well-within 75km.

But hey, I'm glad it works for you.


I'm not trying to be a jerk, but most of the stuff you said there doesn't make sense.
Do you even have EFT on your computer?
If you do, use-it.
If you don't, look-at my post above this one, I have done all of the work for you.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#22 - 2011-10-28 20:38:25 UTC
Sydney Nelson wrote:
What does the Mega do better? Well, it has this one little DPS window, where it out-does the Hype with heavy drones past 60km.
Really, that's about it. I DO like how it has a longer targeting range, but then I realized the DPS out-past 80km is pretty dismal. The only reason you might really want that targeting range is if you don't have an AB (hard to fit on a Mega) and need to get-started drawing agro a few km earlier. It is a little cheaper too.

What does the Hype do better? More DPS, More DPS at range, can actually fit an AB AND a couple of TCs, better tank, more natural HP (means more buffer to absorb damage, while dealing dmg, before you have to activate your repper, which saves cap, and also means you need even less tank). As an added little bonus, the Hype also has a higher scan resolution which means it targets things faster, this translates to a couple seconds of dmg dealing.

Once again, I appologize profusely for the wall of text. I don't know how to be concise very well.
Thoughts?


I think you make a good argument. I'd still like to see your Mega fit though. I'm very unconvinced that omitting the AB is a good move.

I'm trying to get a Mega to work with named AB/heavy electrochem/IN LAR/425 IIs -- and it works. Requires one ACR and one co-proc, leaving enough room for three (faction) damage mods, two (T2) hardeners, and two (T2 or faction, doesn't matter) TCs. I don't see the Hyp fitting that (it can do everything but the injector with faction lows though). Obviously this leaves the Hyp with more tank. But it's the extra low plus the one less gun to fit that allows the Mega to work in that configuration.

Granted, it's not the only possible way to fit either ship. As you note, 350 IIs on either make fitting pretty trivial and do nice things for tracking but considerably un-nice things for range and damage. And now that short range/high damage ammo for long range guns is getting a huge boost, the old trick of just throwing meta 4/faction guns won't work anymore, so those options are pretty much out as of December (? -- but since guns are also getting easier to fit and I don't have pyfa on here to check changes, meh).

Like I said, I'm unconvinced. I probably should have added that I'm open to being convinced and genuinely curious as to how these permutations play out -- and you're doing a good job making me question some of my assumptions.

So. Show me the Mega fit. Push me over the edge and I'll retract all the nasty things I've said about the Hyp in the past in this thread and others and just continue beating up on the Rokh instead.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#23 - 2011-10-28 21:19:40 UTC
Those graphs show a peak dps of something like 800, a domi does a little over 1k with perfect skills and 425s (which will be even easier to use after the next big patch)
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#24 - 2011-10-31 17:50:30 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Those graphs show a peak dps of something like 800, a domi does a little over 1k with perfect skills and 425s (which will be even easier to use after the next big patch)


That's pretty impressive for a Dominix.
What does that fit look like?
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#25 - 2011-10-31 18:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
IMO, the Hype really does need to go active cap and dual 350's to shine. As long as it's relatively stable with the AB off and repper pulsing, or repper off and ab on, you're fine for most missions. With faction hardeners and mag stabs, you can fit triple tracking comps and damage mods on it, and apply pretty good damage anywhere within the ship's targeting range. Just use the cap booster and tracking scripts to pick off the initial aggro and run the repper, while you move out to sniping range, then swap to optimal scripts and pick everything off as it gets inside the kill zone. Obligatory flights of medium and light drones, of course. The experimental pyfa has that fir putting out 605dps before drones, at 38+48, which is pretty damned good for a T1 hull IMO.

Another route is using a high meta level medium repper, which frees up a ton of rrom without sacrificing TOO much tank

thhief ghabmoef
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#26 - 2011-10-31 19:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Sydney Nelson wrote:
[quote=Cambarus]That's pretty impressive for a Dominix.
What does that fit look like?


There's a lot of faction on it.

[Dominix, 1000 DPS Domi that fits]
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit

Core C-Type 100MN Afterburner
Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Sentry Damage Augmentor II
Large Ancillary Current Router I
[empty rig slot]


Garde II x5

Edit: actually, it's more likely he was talking about this one, which frankly is a better fit all around:

[Dominix, shield gank]
Reactor Control Unit II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Domination Tracking Enhancer
Domination Tracking Enhancer

Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Domination Shield Boost Amplifier
Ballistic Deflection Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I
[empty rig slot]


Garde II x5
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#27 - 2011-10-31 21:31:20 UTC
Yeah, That's a little silly. IMO

I think it would work pretty well, but I would rather spend the isk on a Nightmare or Mac.
If I started fitting deadspace/complex stuff on my Hype, and running faction ammo, it would be better than that Dominix anyway.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#28 - 2011-10-31 22:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sydney Nelson
Zhilia:

I think leaving the AB off of the Mega sucks too. Unfortunately you have to make sacrifices. You can fit a co-proc. in the lows, but that means you're gonna sacrifice tank or DPS.
Personally when I was flying mine, I left the DLA (because I realized it was kinda useless) off of it so I could fit an AB and a TC.
I kept-on looking at that "useless" 8th high-slot.
Then started playing with the Hype cause it had 8 guns.

I like your idea about fitting-it-up with the active cap. It's not a bad idea and Fronkfurter recomended too.
It DOES cause you to have to make some copromises. (Once the new Hybrid changes come about, it's going to be great though.)
I prefere fits without the cap-booster (although I'm playing with a fitting using T2 425s and a medium booster on the Hype).
The cap booster fits require some compromises for the Hype AND the Mega. (Both of which decrease damage some.)
For 90% of the L4s, I haven't had any cap issues. Just fly smart and pulse the repper and burner.
There are a few missions where the booster could be really handy though. I flew one of them last-night (Dread Pirate Scarlet).

For the Mega, you can fit it all if you fit the Co-Proc and ACR.
For the Hype you have to drop to 350s, but you can fit a Collision Accel and Locus in the rig-slots.
Consequently you can fit a Co-Proc and 2 ACRs on the Hype and squeeze the 425s on-there.
(That way it maintains big dmg, but I feel you need at-least 2 slots for tank, and at least 3 mag-stabs.)
I can drop said fit to 2 mag-stabs and 2 hardeners, dmg is on-par with the Mega that-way, and tank is a little better, but I prefer the Hype fit below (with the 350s) as it has more damage and the same tank.

Here's the Mega

Megathron, T2 425s Booster
Co-Processor II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Federation Navy Armor Explosive Hardener

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets

425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I

And the Hype:

Hyperion, T2 350 Booster
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Federation Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Federation Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets

350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Large Ancillary Current Router I


Ogre II x3
Hobgoblin II x2
Hobgoblin II x3

Here's the DPS graph:
Green line is the Mega
Red line it the Hype
Blue line is my T2 Hype fitting without a Cap-booster (for reference).
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e9/sydneyACE/EVE/BoosterMegavsHype.jpg

As you can see, the Hype outdamages the Mega.
The Mega has a little more damage past 60km.
With the tracking-scripts the Hype has VERY good tracking (350s too).
Tank on the Hype is better too. (317 vs 335 vs Angels)
Codename valkyrie
Joint Empire Squad
#29 - 2011-10-31 23:16:53 UTC
Sydney,

Mega has 2 gunbonuses, Hype has 1 and an active rep bonus. +1 (FN) Mega.
Mega can actually fit 7 (tracking bonused) 425's, Hype has difficulties filling its 8 turretslots. +1 (FN) Mega
Mega can lock further out than Hype. +1 (FN) Mega
Hype has cap problems, so has Mega. tie
Hype has better active tank (at least than regular Mega). +1 Hype
Hype is somewhat faster and more agile. +1 Hype

The active tanking bonus of the hype, combined with its higher base cap, is more forgiving for people starting l4's. Having said that, tanking doesn't kill rats, shooting and hitting them does, and the Mega is better at that.

Please, get out of EFT, train the appropriate skills and use them ire (in real Eve). I think you'll find that with somewhat better skills and more knowledge of missions you'll prefer the Mega, be that vanilla or faction, over the Hype.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#30 - 2011-11-01 01:32:58 UTC
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Yeah, That's a little silly. IMO

I think it would work pretty well, but I would rather spend the isk on a Nightmare or Mac.
If I started fitting deadspace/complex stuff on my Hype, and running faction ammo, it would be better than that Dominix anyway.

A domi is to kin/therm missions what a nm is to em/therm missions.
Calapine
Xeno Tech Corp
#31 - 2011-11-01 02:01:20 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
A domi is to kin/therm missions what a nm is to em/therm missions.


Shield tanked Domi with 6x rails, 5x Garde IIs, sentry damage rig...pew pew pew!Twisted

Pain is short, and joy is eternal.
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-11-01 02:35:40 UTC
Calapine wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
A domi is to kin/therm missions what a nm is to em/therm missions.


Shield tanked Domi with 6x rails, 5x Garde IIs, sentry damage rig...pew pew pew!Twisted

i bet you guys like slowboating around and some nice damps from outside of drone control range, too.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#33 - 2011-11-01 14:49:01 UTC
Inir Ishtori wrote:
Calapine wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
A domi is to kin/therm missions what a nm is to em/therm missions.


Shield tanked Domi with 6x rails, 5x Garde IIs, sentry damage rig...pew pew pew!Twisted

i bet you guys like slowboating around and some nice damps from outside of drone control range, too.

And I bet YOU love it when you get TDed and/or neuted by 8 different cruisers.

I used to use the 2 ships back to back, I can tell you from experience, they're nearly identical in terms of performance when fit with long range guns (as for pulses/blasters, there are fewer missions during which blasters have a use, but holy crap do they do well when you can use them)
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2011-11-01 15:17:12 UTC
T2 Rail + Sentry domi is the best L4 boat in the game
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#35 - 2011-11-01 15:31:12 UTC
Codename valkyrie wrote:
Sydney,

Mega has 2 gunbonuses, Hype has 1 and an active rep bonus. +1 (FN) Mega.
Mega can actually fit 7 (tracking bonused) 425's, Hype has difficulties filling its 8 turretslots. +1 (FN) Mega
Mega can lock further out than Hype. +1 (FN) Mega
Hype has cap problems, so has Mega. tie
Hype has better active tank (at least than regular Mega). +1 Hype
Hype is somewhat faster and more agile. +1 Hype

The active tanking bonus of the hype, combined with its higher base cap, is more forgiving for people starting l4's. Having said that, tanking doesn't kill rats, shooting and hitting them does, and the Mega is better at that.

Please, get out of EFT, train the appropriate skills and use them ire (in real Eve). I think you'll find that with somewhat better skills and more knowledge of missions you'll prefer the Mega, be that vanilla or faction, over the Hype.


If you actually read my posts, you would realize I have addressed all of these issues.
You would also realize I spent lots of time in EFT working-out the details and making graphs ONLY because it is the only way to produce actual evidence of different DPS profiles. I can sit here and try to tell you the Hype does more damage, has more DPS at range, better tank, more speed, better tracking, etc until I'm blue-in-the-face. The only way you can actually SEE what I mean is for me to make a picture for you.
I made REAL fits that work with no problems, graphed them on a damage graph, and compared many variations of each ship.
I have also spent TONS of time flying said ships in actual L4 back-to-back comparisons, I can tell you without a doubt, the Hype outperforms the Mega in EVERY way that matters.

Having said that, we are NOT comparing the Hype to the Navy Mega (I'm assuming that's what you meant when you put a little (FN) in your comparisons). I HAVE compared them, the Navy Mega is better, but not by as much as you think.

You haven't brought-up any new arguments/conciderations that I haven't already addressed.
If you're not going to read the thread, you probably shouldn't post in it.

Please by all means, read my previous posts, and tell me where I'm wrong.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#36 - 2011-11-01 15:40:06 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Yeah, That's a little silly. IMO

I think it would work pretty well, but I would rather spend the isk on a Nightmare or Mac.
If I started fitting deadspace/complex stuff on my Hype, and running faction ammo, it would be better than that Dominix anyway.

A domi is to kin/therm missions what a nm is to em/therm missions.



And I would rather use a Mac for kin/therm because I like gunboats better.
I think you'll agree the Mac is a very good L4 boat.

Let's just call-it a difference of preference huh?
Rath Kelbore
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-11-01 19:45:22 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
T2 Rail + Sentry domi is the best L4 boat in the game


0/10

I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#38 - 2011-11-01 20:58:40 UTC
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Hyperion, T2 350 Booster
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
Federation Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Federation Navy Armor Explosive Hardener
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets

350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
350mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L

Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Large Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Large Ancillary Current Router I


You got me. That's a rock-solid Hyp. I don't think I can throw out a Mega that can compete. Now I'm curious to see what hybrid changes can do for it and I might just give it a shot.

And to anyone tempted to bring up the Machariel (again): of course it's better. But that's not really the point, is it?
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#39 - 2011-11-01 22:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sydney Nelson
When the Hybrid changes come, things will be much different.
The way I see-it, both ships will be-able to fit basically whatever.
Personaly, I feel that the decreased fitting req. of Rails will benefit the Mega more than the Hype.
The Mega should be-able to fit 2TC's, AB, and DLA without running-out of CPU.
Which means it will have better tracking, equal range, and (with the extra low) be-able to do almost as much DPS.
(At the draw-back of having less cap-time and tank.)

Having said that, the 10% increase in DPS (from the hybrid-buff) will give the Hype a little-more overal DPS increase (because of the extra gun).
Both ships will be much-more veratile. So-much so that you could probably get equal stats out-of either by just changing stuff-around.

Of course the Mach is awesome, it's a pirate-faction ship. Unfortunately for Gallente pilots, "our" pirate-faction ship is the Vindicator, which is more PVP-geared. The web bonus just doesn't do much for PVE.
The Navy Domi is pretty great, but it's not a gun-boat. The Navy-Mega, and the Kronos just can't come close to the raw damage of the Mach and Nightmare.

I want a pirate-faction PVE-geared ship based-on the Hype hull. With the Hybrid-buff coming, and the ability to fit-more, or have some other useful bonus, it could easily be on-par with the Nightmare and Mach. Twisted
Pretty please!!!!???
Zillam Reynardine
Stargazer Holdings
#40 - 2011-11-02 08:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zillam Reynardine
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Of course the Mach is awesome, it's a pirate-faction ship. Unfortunately for Gallente pilots, "our" pirate-faction ship is the Vindicator, which is more PVP-geared. The web bonus just doesn't do much for PVE.

Bah. If you can competently fly a Vindicator, you're only about a month from competently flying a Machariel. They're both Gal/Min BSes that fly guns; the only difference is the Mach flies projectiles (which getting T2 of takes like, twenty days, tops?) and is better served with shieldtank than with armortank.

ETA: Hell, I've a couple of Vindicator shieldtank fits lying around that I'm going to implement one day, even. Dat skill crossover, yo.