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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

First post First post
Author
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#841 - 2013-03-10 15:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
Uhm. Malcanis isn't a bloc candidate. Also Psychotic Monk has expressed general approval for a null industry buff.

e: i hate getting pagetoppers :(
Frying Doom
#842 - 2013-03-10 16:03:01 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
But to be honest I don't care about big alliances in anyway other than the effect bootum up income and a usage based sov will have.

I care about the industrialists be they part of an alliance or solo, now these people myself included deserve and for that matter pay for more than just getting stuffed into hi sec and being told to rot.


i·ro·ny [ahy-ruh-nee]
noun, plural i·ro·nies.
1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning. Eg: Frying Doom doesn't care about big power blocks, he cares about the little guy. Has "vote for Malcanis" in his forum signature.

Yes because I chose to support Malcanis as I believe his ideas are best for the game as a whole. It is one of the things I don't like in a lot of the candidates, they are "vote for me and I will fix hi sec" or "I will fix Wormhole space"

This game needs people on the CSM who are concerned about all of the game not just the interests of the few.

Oh and Malcanis is not a block candidate, but just so you know Myanna is the go on swarm block candidate but having said that Myanna is actually the best goon candidate I have seen so far.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#843 - 2013-03-10 16:06:53 UTC
Andski wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :(


Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope!

Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#844 - 2013-03-10 16:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Andski wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :(


Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope!

Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.


Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#845 - 2013-03-10 16:23:34 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Andski wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :(

Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope!

Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.

Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk.

See, isn't that good enough for ~nullsec~?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#846 - 2013-03-10 16:25:45 UTC
I support Psychotic Monk for one reason, and one reason only: of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts.

As a new player, the vast majority of what I see emanating from null is elitism. Most of the null bear advocates seem to think they're above everyone else as if null is some kind of exclusive neighborhood, and the rest of us are just high sec peeons...and I don't even live in high sec.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

Frying Doom
#847 - 2013-03-10 16:27:40 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Andski wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :(


Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope!

Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.

POSs have a max 75% refine no skills are counted.

And outposts are only for Sov holding corps in Sov Null.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#848 - 2013-03-10 16:27:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Andski wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :(

Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope!

Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.

Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk.

See, isn't that good enough for ~nullsec~?


The 5 office slots and max of 9 manufacturing slots on a refining outpost should be enough for you all. Blink

Edit: Opps max of 13 office slots on a matari outpost.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Frying Doom
#849 - 2013-03-10 16:32:44 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
I support Psychotic Monk for one reason, and one reason only: of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts.

As a new player, the vast majority of what I see emanating from null is elitism. Most of the null bear advocates seem to think they're above everyone else as if null is some kind of exclusive neighborhood, and the rest of us are just high sec peeons...and I don't even live in high sec.

I think after the irony comment we can class you amongst those suffering from elitism.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#850 - 2013-03-10 16:35:06 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
I support Psychotic Monk for one reason, and one reason only: of all the CSM candidates, he is the only one advocating for emergent, aka player-generated content. Which in my opinion, is something those of you in null sec should be doing...creating your own content instead of asking for handouts.

As a new player, the vast majority of what I see emanating from null is elitism. Most of the null bear advocates seem to think they're above everyone else as if null is some kind of exclusive neighborhood, and the rest of us are just high sec peeons...and I don't even live in high sec.

yeah giving people destructible industry services that were actually worth using probably wouldn't help generate any content. you're right.
Frying Doom
#851 - 2013-03-10 16:35:18 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Andski wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :(

Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope!

Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.

Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk.

See, isn't that good enough for ~nullsec~?

May be that is the answer, instead of arguing that Null industry should improve, we should be arguing that Hi-sec Industry should be as good as Null.

What are they going to complain about then.....oh thats right the fact there is almost no industry and they can even have a couple of tech moons too to make them feel special.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#852 - 2013-03-10 16:36:05 UTC
flakeys wrote:

I don't need to check that as i said ''when there where bigger wars on'' tell me after the north collapsed a few years back has there been any ''big war'' ? All you got left is huge blobs killing off small blobs and whining that that smaller blob doesn't undock o/TEST looking at you lot .


So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.

How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .


Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.


In the past, before NC and stuff, there were PvP corps in null sec. I was in an awesome pure PvP corp where I spent my best time of all EvE till one day my RL obligations forced me to stop everything that demanded commitment. That corp close to my last days joined BoB. A fun thing, since half of my characters were in a GS blued alliance instead. Lol

The number of known titans was reported on a specific thread (they were below 150), we'd fight with battleships and carriers, some dreads. The bigger guns were rare.

POSes were the sov thing to grind.


It was quicker to become a null sec "reality", it was just a *better game*. Dominion is the worst expansion that EvE could ever get. Regardless whether it's because it was delivered unfinished (how many expansions did anyway?) or just craptastic, Dominion tainted ripple effects have harmed EvE more than every other bad made expansion put together.

Back to my talk: EvE was a better game because ANY corp could easily stage in hi sec, then low sec / FW then go NPC null sec or directly go take sov.
It was just smoother and easier, the entry barrier well lower, everyone could grind 10 or so carriers and then dare to be bold and go carve a morsel of sovereignty.

The other opponents did not have 2k warm bodies summoned at a whistle, min maxed "doctrines" were less extreme.

End result: the cake was the same but the participants had an easier time eating it.

R64? My balls. We conquered 3 moons before I quit. We started from zero moons, weekly corp ops to farm ISK / minerals.
4-8 hours a week ops plus some particularly generous corp players = fully T2 fitted ship replacement program for everybody and fitted capital ships replacement program.

Sadly industry had no place in there, nor heavy logistics were easy. I recall my weekly multi-boxed freighter run through Hek=>Taff (7 jumps in low sec) with 30-50 escort ships (now people cry for lack of content, they just play with bicycle wheels) and later the carrier jumps (JFs were rare, really).
So as industrialist guy I had to do most logistics in hi or low sec, large reprocessable modules acquisition and delivery and so on. And mining ops in low or null sec. Pirate where roids are moons.
I did some small PvP and everyone were so happy with the whole thing.

There was no crying on the forums, only alliances happily blasting each other and making to the international media news all the time when the fights were glorious.

I recall EvE news having up to 3 null sec large fights reported at a time, at the time they were "XYZ attacked JNNN with *two* supercarriers and 1 titan" => to the 3rd party website news.

Then the old players guard started quitting, I bet Dominion played an huge part on that as I distinctly recall most of my corp mates including me detesting blob (> 50 (fifty!) ) ships fights with a passion.
Old alliances slowly faded, being replaced by another kind of players, more adapted to the "new and improved" Roll mechanics. The golden days, for what regards my personal feelings, were officially over.

The coup-de-grace came with the hideous "GREED IS GOOD" campaign.
Tons of remaining old guard quit. I quit with them. Many because of the CCP attitude, many because of the "golden ammo" attempts, many because of realizing how decayed CCP had become to release a piece of scandal: "The Closed Door".

I joined the original most large protest threadnought posters at the first pages and in block we delivered the heaviest protest - including Jita monument - ever had in a MMO.
I was expecially annoyed by CCP wanting me to shell $99 for the honor of advertising them on my website and writing free software for them. I, spending $350 a year just in hosting fees, would have also to pay them for the honor of working for them? FK OFF. Yes I am still annoyed even now that they reversed that foolishness.

Thus you Flakeys might recall me ranting on MD a lot back at the time and then leaving.


The new null sec protagonists joined a new mechanic almost requiring huge blobbing for getting anything done.
Plus they were different people.

Not pure PvPers any more, going there for the very sake of claiming a "tabard" and the glory of a space castle and uncaring about what was needed to achieve that. Having to perma farm hi sec L4 missions and producing only in hi sec was a secondary thing.
The new players wanted to really live in there. Being many, they had a number of "civilians", that is people less than interested in pure PvP and similar and more interested in "cultivating the farms".
The pre-Dominion industry facilities suddenly fell short: before Dominion the only null sec industry done was to build fewer ships for smaller entities and it was a soft cap to supercaps spamming.
All of this broke and...

we are at today.

Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#853 - 2013-03-10 16:36:38 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Andski wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
but you do nothing to help the poor miners! :(


Beyond putting up outposts and upgrading them to allow for 100% refines with skills and upgrading systems to allow more grav anoms to spawn? Nope!

Wait a minute. A few pages back y'all were going on about how you had crappy refineries in null that ate 25% of your ore. Now you're saying that miners get a good deal because they get 100% refineries.


Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk.

And you get to choose which systems are upgraded to always have grav belts handy.

I wonder which ones are most likely to be fully upgraded that way?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#854 - 2013-03-10 17:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Frying Doom wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:

Only 1 type of outpost can hit 100%(w/skills ofc) after upgrades. Outside of that you would have to use POS refining(which takes 25%) or use the other station refineries which take a large chunk.

See, isn't that good enough for ~nullsec~?

May be that is the answer, instead of arguing that Null industry should improve, we should be arguing that Hi-sec Industry should be as good as Null.

What are they going to complain about then.....oh thats right the fact there is almost no industry and they can even have a couple of tech moons too to make them feel special.

Yeah, highsec as good as null, now with added CONCORD and NPC Corp combo.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#855 - 2013-03-10 17:03:02 UTC
Heh I noticed my "totally out of my heart" almost rant above has been liked.

The 6k characters cut it else I would have rained all my RAAAAGEEEEE at Dominion, a scientifically drugged sov system born under the GREED IS GOOD umbrella to force as many subs at sov end game as possible and to artificially push PLEX purchases in order to let a company in bad waters out of their situation. PLEX = the good will instrument. The "pay now we'll deliver service later and if we fold, the money is ours to keep".

They were in bad waters because they created a beautiful product but then rested on their laurels delivering unfinished, all encompassing "full Holy Geesus" expansion after expansion (CCP really invented a similar term to define those expansions) till the game started literally crumbling down.


So, imo, the FIRST thing to do is to destroy that utter failure of expansion and create another, that provides a smooth entry point for smaller entities bold enough to dare the "big jump" into sov warfare.

The industry revamp? Due and needed but framed inside this new sov expansion.

This is why I wanted a staged delivery: first an upgrade to multiple stations per systems (say capped at 8) because that establishes the theoretical slots available. Then an upgrade to make those 8 stations deliver *as many* slots as hi sec.
Then make hi sec slots cost as much as POS slots except in starter systems and only to < 1 month accounts that also still have production efficiency trained to below V.

Then the POSes improvements centered expansion.

Then the buffs or nerfs across the various secs, because that's a balancing act, and one can't balance until the levers have been pulled. I see the buffs and nerfs as the cherry on the cake, we first need the cake, the whipped cream and so on.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#856 - 2013-03-10 17:11:50 UTC
Many of the issues regarding null industry could be eliminated with updating POSs. Really that should be more of a priority then fixing Dominion at this point. Since it could allow corps/alliances in npc null/WH to build up in preparation for sov null. Also I feel POSs are in worse shape then Sov is.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Hemmo Paskiainen
#857 - 2013-03-10 17:27:20 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
flakeys wrote:

I don't need to check that as i said ''when there where bigger wars on'' tell me after the north collapsed a few years back has there been any ''big war'' ? All you got left is huge blobs killing off small blobs and whining that that smaller blob doesn't undock o/TEST looking at you lot .


So again , enlighten me why this is a verry high concern now that big wars are non existant and while technetium income is skyhigh for a large part of null.And again yes it is a large part if you look at the amount of players in the OTEC alliances.

How the hell did alliances like BOB -owwww i dared say it and in comes T2 whining- even stay alive for longer then 1 month beats me , i mean they should have been sucked dry as an alliance and as members the day they stepped into null right?I mean they had constant wars and didn't suck techtitty as much as CFC does yet they're idnustrial backbone was strong and delivered perfectly during wartimes yeaaaaaaaaaars back and we didn't even have JF's / jumpbridges then .


Ahh i know they must have been cheating devs , that's it it all makes sense now.


In the past, before NC and stuff, there were PvP corps in null sec. I was in an awesome pure PvP corp where I spent my best time of all EvE till one day my RL obligations forced me to stop everything that demanded commitment. That corp close to my last days joined BoB. A fun thing, since half of my characters were in a GS blued alliance instead. Lol

The number of known titans was reported on a specific thread (they were below 150), we'd fight with battleships and carriers, some dreads. The bigger guns were rare.

POSes were the sov thing to grind.


It was quicker to become a null sec "reality", it was just a *better game*. Dominion is the worst expansion that EvE could ever get. Regardless whether it's because it was delivered unfinished (how many expansions did anyway?) or just craptastic, Dominion tainted ripple effects have harmed EvE more than every other bad made expansion put together.

The other opponents did not have 2k warm bodies summoned at a whistle, min maxed "doctrines" were less extreme.

End result: the cake was the same but the participants had an easier time eating it.

R64? My balls. We conquered 3 moons before I quit. We started from zero moons, weekly corp ops to farm ISK / minerals.
4-8 hours a week ops plus some particularly generous corp players = fully T2 fitted ship replacement program for everybody and fitted capital ships replacement program.

Sadly industry had no place in there, nor heavy logistics were easy. I recall my weekly multi-boxed freighter run through Hek=>Taff (7 jumps in low sec) with 30-50 escort ships (now people cry for lack of content, they just play with bicycle wheels) and later the carrier jumps (JFs were rare, really).
So as industrialist guy I had to do most logistics in hi or low sec, large reprocessable modules acquisition and delivery and so on. And mining ops in low or null sec. Pirate where roids are moons.
I did some small PvP and everyone were so happy with the whole thing.

There was no crying on the forums, only alliances happily blasting each other and making to the international media news all the time when the fights were glorious.

I recall EvE news having up to 3 null sec large fights reported at a time, at the time they were "XYZ attacked JNNN with *two* supercarriers and 1 titan" => to the 3rd party website news.

Then the old players guard started quitting, I bet Dominion played an huge part on that as I distinctly recall most of my corp mates including me detesting blob (> 50 (fifty!) ) ships fights with a passion.
Old alliances slowly faded, being replaced by another kind of players, more adapted to the "new and improved" Roll mechanics. The golden days, for what regards my personal feelings, were officially over.

The coup-de-grace came with the hideous "GREED IS GOOD" campaign.
Tons of remaining old guard quit. I quit with them. Many because of the CCP attitude, many because of the "golden ammo" attempts, many because of realizing how decayed CCP had become to release a piece of scandal: "The Closed Door".

The new null sec protagonists joined a new mechanic almost requiring huge blobbing for getting anything done.
Plus they were different people.

Not pure PvPers any more, going there for the very sake of claiming a "tabard" and the glory of a space castle and uncaring about what was needed to achieve that. Having to perma farm hi sec L4 missions and producing only in hi sec was a secondary thing.
The new players wanted to really live in there. Being many, they had a number of "civilians", that is people less than interested in pure PvP and similar and more interested in "cultivating the farms".
The pre-Dominion industry facilities fell short: before Dominion the only null sec industry done was to build fewer ships for smaller entities and it was a soft cap to supercaps spamming.
All of this broke and...

we are at today.



You seem to forgot the part where the newer style players are outblobbing and ignoring goodfight fights to the old scool people with their endless no effort iskprinting teck moons that attract an even bigger blob and thus ruining old scool ppls game and make them ragging at the dominion mechanics. This effect caused the blue donut we have today. Its a shame one of the last true alliances that operated on the old way, AAA, has come on this way to his end.

Now there all these small oldscool entities scatterd all over eve farming the newer ones :p. Seems to me you could have them better at one place than all over Lol

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#858 - 2013-03-10 17:30:51 UTC
Hemmo Paskiainen wrote:
You seem to forgot the part where the newer style players are outblobbing and ignoring goodfight fights to the old scool people with their endless no effort iskprinting teck moons that attract an even bigger blob and thus ruining old scool ppls game and make them ragging at the dominion mechanics. This effect caused the blue donut we have today. Its a shame one of the last true alliances that operated on the old way, AAA, has come on this way to his end.

Now there all these small oldscool entities scatterd all over eve farming the newer ones :p. Seems to me you could have them better at one place than all over Lol

Let's ask some TEST ratters how those techmoons and blue donut are working out for them.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#859 - 2013-03-10 17:39:31 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
If nullsec industry is too hard, just go back to highsec.

CHECKMATE, GOONS!

YEAH, get back on CONCORD's hawt azz titazz

EDIT: Where do you think all the stuff being JFed from Jita to VFK comes from?


I hope you aren't directing this at me.

Arguing with these nerf null guys is like trying to argue on TPC. Post all the facts and evidence you want, it's all biased towards nullsec. (Because reality has a well known nullsec bias.)

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]

Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#860 - 2013-03-10 17:43:01 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
:words: about the past



Back in my day we had to pvp uphill in the snow both ways! And we liked it!

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]