These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: CSM8 Elections – Schedule and Election Process

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#321 - 2013-03-04 08:26:52 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
And yet I guess CCP took what we said & gamed a system that'll do the exact opposite of what we are 'screaming' for Roll
Without compulsorary sufferage like in the country they are modelling the system over (Australia) this thing is missing a major component that would make it work.


Notice that at no point did I say CCP's changes were good? I argued at great length against changing anything when the topic came up, precisely because the problem is the low voting turnout, not the voting system. What I'm saying is that at some point CCP got it into their heads to push full steam ahead with a voting system change, and it sure as **** wasn't nullsec interests pushing that attitude. Your attempts to pin that one on us are about as wrong as can be.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#322 - 2013-03-04 08:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Snow Axe wrote:
What's really funny is that the "minority" you refer to (obv. you mean nullsec) was pretty firmly AGAINST any kind of change to the voting system (you can check Xhagen's voting reform thread in Jita Park if you don't believe me). If CCP was swayed by anyone (and that's a big IF), it was by people like yourself and Frying Doom crying and screaming about NULL SEC LOBBY GROUPS and other such nonsense that would lead CCP to believe that the current population was not being fairly represented.

So hey, congrats, I guess?

You might want to read that thread again snow axe, while to start I did like the idea of a new voting system during part of tebors thread by the time CCP Xhagens was around I wanted a player awareness campaign, as on looking at a lot of the STV systems I realized it would further make the CSM filled with Null sec...So don't blame me for something I argued against.

Frying Doom wrote:
As of who you are and your work on the white paper (Still a lovely document) I will not just spew figures at you.

Now the current voting system even if left as is has flaws but most of these are external to the system its self and most of the problems are player created. Yes I am probably going to tell you things you are aware of sorry.


But I will admit I did not even think a new voting system would be implemented as

CCP Xhagen wrote:

And please don't read my previous reply as 'WE ARE GOING TO IMPLEMENT A NEW ELECTION SYSTEM' - I'm a reformist, not a revolutionist and while the current election system produces 'A RESULT', most people agree that it is sufficient but not the best system there is. So we _can_ still use it, but I'd like to upgrade it (despite the objections of 'if it ain't broken don't fix it' - no one (including me) has showed that it is broken and I fully acknowledge that).


And
CCP Xhagen wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Forgive me if this comes off confrontational, but shouldn't the first step have been trying to get a real idea of what people ACTUALLY think of the current voting system before even considering a discussion about changing it?

Or better yet, not even think about changing it until you've got your voting numbers where you want them to be (or at least to where you think it's as good as it's going to get). You don't decorate your house until you're finished building it.

But I CAN talk about decorating my house before it is built. And talking about changing the election system also brings out peoples' opinion about the current election system.

So this sort of jumped out at us all unless you believe Trebor that there was a lot of community discussion, which just by that you can see was ignored and then we suddenly get this rubbished dumped on us from the Pro-CCP CSM.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#323 - 2013-03-04 08:38:20 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
You might want to read that thread again snow axe, while to start I did like the idea of a new voting system during part of tebors thread by the time CCP Xhagens was around I wanted a player awareness campaign, as on looking at a lot of the STV systems I realized it would further make the CSM filled with Null sec...So don't blame me for something I argued against.


Yeah, you did, but when you say that sort of stuff in the same breath as all of your other garbage about the CSM being a nullsec lobby group (when it was about as diverse a CSM as you could get), the real message comes across loud and clear (i.e. the CSM is not fairly representing players). Besides, as we can see with these developments, by the time Xhagen's thread came around it was already too late - CCP was going to change the system and that was that.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#324 - 2013-03-04 08:48:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
You might want to read that thread again snow axe, while to start I did like the idea of a new voting system during part of tebors thread by the time CCP Xhagens was around I wanted a player awareness campaign, as on looking at a lot of the STV systems I realized it would further make the CSM filled with Null sec...So don't blame me for something I argued against.


Yeah, you did, but when you say that sort of stuff in the same breath as all of your other garbage about the CSM being a nullsec lobby group (when it was about as diverse a CSM as you could get), the real message comes across loud and clear (i.e. the CSM is not fairly representing players). Besides, as we can see with these developments, by the time Xhagen's thread came around it was already too late - CCP was going to change the system and that was that.

Actually I said almost exactly that, the CSM does not fairly represent the populous of EvE and things need to change. Yes it was still acting like a Null sec lobby before it became the Pro-CCP cheer squad.

It still revolves around what I have been saying, Education of the Masses.

Not some weird voting system designed so that a minority party has the ability to claim an extra seat in the senate that it could not under Australian voting laws.

Also I must point out this post in reply to you

CCP Dolan wrote:
As for the previous election, while a significant amount of voters cast a ballot in support of a candidate who was ultimately victorious, the majority of votes cast by those voters had absolutely no effect on the outcome of the election and were completely ineffective. This outcome completely fails the basic concept of proportional representation. To put this in perspective, the voters who supported the CSM member coming in 14th place were much more represented per voter than any other candidate.

So it would appear it is not I that has caused this to occur but in large part from the CSM 7 votes of your self and others that voted for The Mittani.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#325 - 2013-03-04 11:06:47 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
By the way, do you know wether there are any plans to provide candidate insight for the preliminary election? Like a single article explaining who are the candidates, what do they stand for and why should we help them pass the threshold?

I know CCP intends to do more, but I don't know if they will do this. But it's a decent idea and I will make sure that Xhagen and Dolan are pointed to your post.

DarthNefarius wrote:
For the pre-election the voters will be given the RL names connected with the Candidates' characters names correct?

AFAIK, yes.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#326 - 2013-03-04 14:40:08 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
By the way, do you know wether there are any plans to provide candidate insight for the preliminary election? Like a single article explaining who are the candidates, what do they stand for and why should we help them pass the threshold?

I know CCP intends to do more, but I don't know if they will do this. But it's a decent idea and I will make sure that Xhagen and Dolan are pointed to your post.


I hope they do, as so far the most comprehensive source of information are Crossing Zebra's podcasts and for a number of reasons (mostly time and language) they aren't very useful to me.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#327 - 2013-03-05 05:59:20 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok well what I would expect from a "expert masterful business", compared to CCP I will not go into as I think the forum server would explode.

But what your saying is that first they got into trouble with the Norwegians for being a gambling site and now your saying we need to contact the UN for electoral assistance as CCP is illegally dumping votes and contaminating the political wilderness.

So now we just need a civil rights CSM candidateLol


Well most people would say all a business does is contaminate the political wilderness. Or just spend lots of money for certain candidates.

Besides a lot of people have negative views of great companies. (Talking about negative views towards companies, you still haven't given me that job I wanted and you semi promised me.)

I mostly mean you want political improvements from a company really. Its kind of a strange notion.

CCP isn't really doing a bad job, but it is a business trying to wade into politics, so expect bumby roads and such.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#328 - 2013-03-05 06:04:51 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
By the way, do you know wether there are any plans to provide candidate insight for the preliminary election? Like a single article explaining who are the candidates, what do they stand for and why should we help them pass the threshold?

I know CCP intends to do more, but I don't know if they will do this. But it's a decent idea and I will make sure that Xhagen and Dolan are pointed to your post.

Make sure to point CCP Xhagen and Dolan to my post as well.

More decent ideas

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Frying Doom
#329 - 2013-03-05 06:48:22 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok well what I would expect from a "expert masterful business", compared to CCP I will not go into as I think the forum server would explode.

But what your saying is that first they got into trouble with the Norwegians for being a gambling site and now your saying we need to contact the UN for electoral assistance as CCP is illegally dumping votes and contaminating the political wilderness.

So now we just need a civil rights CSM candidateLol


Well most people would say all a business does is contaminate the political wilderness. Or just spend lots of money for certain candidates.

Besides a lot of people have negative views of great companies. (Talking about negative views towards companies, you still haven't given me that job I wanted and you semi promised me.)

I mostly mean you want political improvements from a company really. Its kind of a strange notion.

CCP isn't really doing a bad job, but it is a business trying to wade into politics, so expect bumby roads and such.

What can I say

Sorry no vacancies Lol

But yeah they really did put the cart before the horse on this one. I think it more came down to the quantifiable, they knew they could write something and bring it into being but they could not know how educating the voters would go.

So we now have a more complex voting system likely to drive voters away Cry

And of course the death of the player elected councilCry

But I suppose on the bright side it is now the player elected beta testersLol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#330 - 2013-03-05 09:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Frying Doom wrote:

What can I say

Sorry no vacancies Lol

But yeah they really did put the cart before the horse on this one. I think it more came down to the quantifiable, they knew they could write something and bring it into being but they could not know how educating the voters would go.

So we now have a more complex voting system likely to drive voters away Cry

And of course the death of the player elected councilCry

But I suppose on the bright side it is now the player elected beta testersLol


Yeah, probably right on the quantifiable. On the other aspects to the game, seems they focus on the quantifiable as well.

Which is kind of business as well, but it seems your more interested in hostile takeovers or biting off a lot as well as finishing the job, aspect of business. (Perhaps it is best for me to wait, before I get hired by you, probably be fired pretty fast, with your business motto.)

I think there are some aspects that I wish CCP would bite it all off, as you say they should. Never really thought the CSM election really needed a huge overhaul, or biting off and finishing the job.

Besides it could be hard to educate the player base. If one plays EVE but doesn't interact, thus never knowing of the CSM. Most players use ganking to bring awareness to them, which could be too harsh. CCP being a business could use mass indoctrination. (Which I could make it half way through, so its tempting.) But a lot of players hated, Trebor's mass indoctrination so maybe not so wise for CCP to go that way.

But anyhows, are you really up to teaching EVE players? You should go read all the ship balancing threads and what not. To see what you are getting yourself into. You are gonna need all the employees you can find to get that job done. I.E. Hire me :)

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Frying Doom
#331 - 2013-03-05 10:43:18 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

What can I say

Sorry no vacancies Lol

But yeah they really did put the cart before the horse on this one. I think it more came down to the quantifiable, they knew they could write something and bring it into being but they could not know how educating the voters would go.

So we now have a more complex voting system likely to drive voters away Cry

And of course the death of the player elected councilCry

But I suppose on the bright side it is now the player elected beta testersLol


Yeah, probably right on the quantifiable. On the other aspects to the game, seems they focus on the quantifiable as well.

Which is kind of business as well, but it seems your more interested in hostile takeovers or biting off a lot as well as finishing the job, aspect of business. (Perhaps it is best for me to wait, before I get hired by you, probably be fired pretty fast, with your business motto.)

I think there are some aspects that I wish CCP would bite it all off, as you say they should. Never really thought the CSM election really needed a huge overhaul, or biting off and finishing the job.

Besides it could be hard to educate the player base. If one plays EVE but doesn't interact, thus never knowing of the CSM. Most players use ganking to bring awareness to them, which could be too harsh. CCP being a business could use mass indoctrination. (Which I could make it half way through, so its tempting.) But a lot of players hated, Trebor's mass indoctrination so maybe not so wise for CCP to go that way.

But anyhows, are you really up to teaching EVE players? You should go read all the ship balancing threads and what not. To see what you are getting yourself into. You are gonna need all the employees you can find to get that job done. I.E. Hire me :)

Well after the last few CSMs player education would be harder and now with the new voting system all I have to say is

Good luck with that CCPLol

They have really made it too much like hard work and as I myself am looking for a new job soon, for private industry requires you to work....I will be trying to join the public sectorSmile So I think I have become allergic to work.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#332 - 2013-03-06 06:27:28 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

What can I say

Sorry no vacancies Lol

But yeah they really did put the cart before the horse on this one. I think it more came down to the quantifiable, they knew they could write something and bring it into being but they could not know how educating the voters would go.

So we now have a more complex voting system likely to drive voters away Cry

And of course the death of the player elected councilCry

But I suppose on the bright side it is now the player elected beta testersLol


Yeah, probably right on the quantifiable. On the other aspects to the game, seems they focus on the quantifiable as well.

Which is kind of business as well, but it seems your more interested in hostile takeovers or biting off a lot as well as finishing the job, aspect of business. (Perhaps it is best for me to wait, before I get hired by you, probably be fired pretty fast, with your business motto.)

I think there are some aspects that I wish CCP would bite it all off, as you say they should. Never really thought the CSM election really needed a huge overhaul, or biting off and finishing the job.

Besides it could be hard to educate the player base. If one plays EVE but doesn't interact, thus never knowing of the CSM. Most players use ganking to bring awareness to them, which could be too harsh. CCP being a business could use mass indoctrination. (Which I could make it half way through, so its tempting.) But a lot of players hated, Trebor's mass indoctrination so maybe not so wise for CCP to go that way.

But anyhows, are you really up to teaching EVE players? You should go read all the ship balancing threads and what not. To see what you are getting yourself into. You are gonna need all the employees you can find to get that job done. I.E. Hire me :)

Well after the last few CSMs player education would be harder and now with the new voting system all I have to say is

Good luck with that CCPLol

They have really made it too much like hard work and as I myself am looking for a new job soon, for private industry requires you to work....I will be trying to join the public sectorSmile So I think I have become allergic to work.


It probably gets really hard to always have to chase aborigines off your land. I would probably move into the public sector as well if I lived in Australia.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Frying Doom
#333 - 2013-03-08 21:03:34 UTC
I think I know why they changed the voting system to some crap STV designed for a compulsory voting area.

Iceland is really cold.

The STV system will require time to program on a computer. CCP is always telling us it has limited resources.

So what they are planning is that when people vote their ballot paper is then printed out in Iceland, so they can be manually counted.

They chose the STV so that way no one will know who they voted for.

So this way if some ballots accidentally get thrown on the fire at the front of the cave, no one will be any the wiser.

So don't worry if the voting is down this year. It is just CCP staff trying to stay warm.Lol

But seriously an STV system designed for Australian politics and CCP choosing who goes to Iceland. Kind of Poor CCP.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#334 - 2013-03-09 13:53:39 UTC
If it wasn't for the fact I wanted Malcanis in the CSM, I'd give this new system a wide birth.
The cure to not enough voters, isn't to ask for people to vote more than once.

We'll see what happens. But seeing the system and understanding what can happen with the well organised groups we have, I don't have much faith.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Frying Doom
#335 - 2013-03-10 01:27:42 UTC
Mag's wrote:
If it wasn't for the fact I wanted Malcanis in the CSM, I'd give this new system a wide birth.
The cure to not enough voters, isn't to ask for people to vote more than once.

We'll see what happens. But seeing the system and understanding what can happen with the well organised groups we have, I don't have much faith.

a bit like that isn't it, you want to let CCP know what we would prefer.

But the reality is now the CSM system caters more to butt kissers, as those who are the largest cheerleaders are those most likely to go to Iceland.

I am sure hard work will be measured by those who make the most "We love CCP" posters.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#336 - 2013-03-10 11:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
That actually brings up another interesting question that will no doubt be ignored by CCP and CSM alike - how exactly does one measure "hard work" in an advocacy group like this? Aside from specifics like finishing Summit minutes (twice a year) or say, the Secretary/Vice Secretary's work. What "work" is there that can be measured by how hard someone works at it?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#337 - 2013-03-10 12:50:26 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
That actually brings up another interesting question that will no doubt be ignored by CCP and CSM alike - how exactly does one measure "hard work" in an advocacy group like this? Aside from specifics like finishing Summit minutes (twice a year) or say, the Secretary/Vice Secretary's work. What "work" is there that can be measured by how hard someone works at it?

Well lets look at objectively

Trebor sided with them for the destruction of the CSM and then argued with CCPs bottom line for the removal of War decs.
So he would be hard working.

Seleene was pretty much a CCP cheerleader so he was hard working.

Two step was just another monkey in the works till he stabbed them in the back over POSs so he was hard working then suddenly stopped being so.

But in all seriousness we the players will never know as the skype conversations are NDA so the worse that can happen is we can have a CSM member claiming that another who was selected for Iceland is not actually hard working and CCP saying yes they are.

No proof will ever be seen by us the players in relation to This.

But the effects will be felt, as you can work your butt off all year long and not go to Iceland if CCP does not invite you, so it is highly likely our CSM reps will side more with CCP in order to get some reward for the long hard work that is being a CSM member.

So as I have said before our only voice left now is who we vote for as the rest of the year will be spent kissing CCPs butt.

Thank you so much CSM7, well to be honest those few who took part in this behind the doors, behind the rest of the CSMs backs planning.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#338 - 2013-03-12 10:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Frying Doom wrote:
I think I know why they changed the voting system to some crap STV designed for a compulsory voting area.
.


This is the problem I see with the the new voting system it is desgned to be more fair with a compulsary voting sytem yet it is not compulsary... that is where IMHO it will fail
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
merc roy
ILaria Corporation
#339 - 2013-03-12 14:06:57 UTC
how would one go about actually submitting an application to run for a position in CSM8?
CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#340 - 2013-03-12 14:35:52 UTC
Dev Blog is going out soon. All information for applying will be found there.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls