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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#781 - 2013-03-10 05:28:15 UTC
Goldnut Sachs wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Now, let me ask this: Why don't you "pvpers" secure your own damn space and make a place for your ducks to swim around in your own pond, rather than have to fly all the way to high sec in order to keep you supplied with ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.?

I'm having a hard time putting into words just how stupid your post is.
It's seriously mind-blowingly stupid, and you MAY have been excused for it if we hadn't said many MANY times in this very same thread how it's actually NOT POSSIBLE TO DO.
But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time.

You fell hard for a full-tard troll, shame on you.

This is a pretty good point.

But is it really a troll, or will they just ~puppetmaster~ away their being owned...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#782 - 2013-03-10 05:33:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lapine Davion
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone.


If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Similarly, if your "null sec industrialists" are doing all their industry in high sec, they're ducks.

Now, let me ask this: Why don't you "pvpers" secure your own damn space and make a place for your ducks to swim around in your own pond, rather than have to fly all the way to high sec in order to keep you supplied with ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? That way, you all wouldn't have to come on the forums and **** and moan about how CCP needs to "fix" your problem of not knowing how to do industry.

Also, why don't the ducks stick up for themselves? Why do they choose to work under these horrendous conditions? Just come to high sec, guys, and charge the "pvpers" an arm and a leg for your products. Quit degrading yourselves.


We null-seccers would be more than happy to move everything we do into nullsec. Our space is plenty secure, it's just that null sec industry is possibly the worst thing ever invented. It's not that it's dangerous, but it is many times easier AND more profitable to do in high sec. We'd rather not have our industry guys go insane from having to make a million righter and JF jumps to be able to do the same thing as you can do in ONE station in high-sec.

Edit: Here is a fantastic article on the subject: http://themittani.com/features/bottoms-part-one-income-and-industry

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Frying Doom
#783 - 2013-03-10 05:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Lapine Davion wrote:


Edit: Here is a fantastic article on the subject: http://themittani.com/features/bottoms-part-one-income-and-industry

removed, I didnt think much of that joke.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#784 - 2013-03-10 05:39:01 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone.


If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Similarly, if your "null sec industrialists" are doing all their industry in high sec, they're ducks.

Now, let me ask this: Why don't you "pvpers" secure your own damn space and make a place for your ducks to swim around in your own pond, rather than have to fly all the way to high sec in order to keep you supplied with ships, ammo, modules, rigs, etc.? That way, you all wouldn't have to come on the forums and **** and moan about how CCP needs to "fix" your problem of not knowing how to do industry.

Also, why don't the ducks stick up for themselves? Why do they choose to work under these horrendous conditions? Just come to high sec, guys, and charge the "pvpers" an arm and a leg for your products. Quit degrading yourselves.


We null-seccers would be more than happy to move everything we do into nullsec. Our space is plenty secure, it's just that null sec industry is possibly the worst thing ever invented. It's not that it's dangerous, but it is many times easier AND more profitable to do in high sec. We'd rather not have our industry guys go insane from having to make a million righter and JF jumps to be able to do the same thing as you can do in ONE station in high-sec.

Edit: Here is a fantastic article on the subject: http://themittani.com/features/bottoms-part-one-income-and-industry

"They're too weak if they go insane from doing pointlessly annoying things rather than taking the obviously god-sent and approved path of highsec first"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#785 - 2013-03-10 05:59:57 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time.


What exactly is "the point", because what I am getting are:
a. You are too stupid to figure out how to build **** in null.
b. You are too lazy to build **** in null.
c. You are too greedy to build **** in null.

For all the pissing and moaning about null industry being a hassle, you all can still manage to field huge numbers of capitals, and more importantly, super capitals, which cannot have been built anywhere BUT null. Do you have any comprehension as to how much tritanium and build time it takes to put together even 1 titan? Look it up if you don't and then tell me again how hard it is for your people to build a Rifter.

Do you even DO industry?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#786 - 2013-03-10 06:05:25 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time.


What exactly is "the point", because what I am getting are:
a. You are too stupid to figure out how to build **** in null.
b. You are too lazy to build **** in null.
c. You are too greedy to build **** in null.

For all the pissing and moaning about null industry being a hassle, you all can still manage to field huge numbers of capitals, and more importantly, super capitals, which cannot have been built anywhere BUT null. Do you have any comprehension as to how much tritanium and build time it takes to put together even 1 titan? Look it up if you don't and then tell me again how hard it is for your people to build a Rifter.

Do you even DO industry?


do you even do industry?

we build supercaps in 0.0 because, well, you can't build them elsewhere - if supercaps could be built in lowsec, that's where they'd be built. if they could be built in highsec, that's where they'd be built.

but if your line of logic is "well supercaps are built in 0.0 so industry is fine there!" i'm not even going to bother pointing out how full of holes it is

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#787 - 2013-03-10 06:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
also the vast majority of regular capitals are built in lowsec because building them in 0.0 hugely limits the potential market for capital builders, as they would have to be flown hull by hull to lowsec for sale on the open market

i hope i have enlightened you with this tidbit of knowledge

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#788 - 2013-03-10 06:13:43 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time.


What exactly is "the point", because what I am getting are:
a. You are too stupid to figure out how to build **** in null.
b. You are too lazy to build **** in null.
c. You are too greedy to build **** in null.

For all the pissing and moaning about null industry being a hassle, you all can still manage to field huge numbers of capitals, and more importantly, super capitals, which cannot have been built anywhere BUT null. Do you have any comprehension as to how much tritanium and build time it takes to put together even 1 titan? Look it up if you don't and then tell me again how hard it is for your people to build a Rifter.

Do you even DO industry?


If you actually did industry in null you wouldn't be saying this. If you actually read the arguements, you wouldn't be saying this.

Or something just isn't clicking.


CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Frying Doom
#789 - 2013-03-10 06:14:33 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
But you either willfully or out of sheer ignorance completely miss the point every time.


What exactly is "the point", because what I am getting are:
a. You are too stupid to figure out how to build **** in null.
b. You are too lazy to build **** in null.
c. You are too greedy to build **** in null.

For all the pissing and moaning about null industry being a hassle, you all can still manage to field huge numbers of capitals, and more importantly, super capitals, which cannot have been built anywhere BUT null. Do you have any comprehension as to how much tritanium and build time it takes to put together even 1 titan? Look it up if you don't and then tell me again how hard it is for your people to build a Rifter.

Do you even DO industry?

Lets examine your wonderful expansion of Null sec Industry

to build a battle cruiser for example in G-YT55 for example

Now their is no stations there but their are lo-ends

So I set up a POS and go mining. I get the lo-ends I need and put them into the refinery.

Where I immediately lose 25% of what I mined

So as it would be completely ridiculous to build any thing here I pack up and go to Hi-sec where everything is safe free and easy.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#790 - 2013-03-10 06:16:42 UTC
Andski wrote:
also the vast majority of regular capitals are built in lowsec because building them in 0.0 hugely limits the potential market for capital builders, as they would have to be flown hull by hull to lowsec for sale on the open market

i hope i have enlightened you with this tidbit of knowledge

Actually one of the corps I was in made their money from cap sales.

they were built 1 jump into lo-sec and all the minerals were mined in hi-sec, the high ends were just bought from Jita. This way there was very little risk.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#791 - 2013-03-10 06:19:34 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes the populace is poor I have to agree with you there, the alliances aren't but the populace is.

Well, that's a fault in the Alliances, nothing else. However, most seem to have pretty solid ship replacement policies, and many hand out ships as well, so while their members may not have much ISK, they don't lack for capital.

I did a pretty rough and ready check of the stats on EvE Who and EvE-Kill, and it turns out that nullsec alliances, both carebear and PvP, sov holding, and not, WH corps, and hisec alliances all have a pretty consistent ship value loss rate for about 50-100M ISK per pilot (not per account, because that's not data that was available to me) per month. That's it's within the same ballpark across the board (barring a few outliers like Solar Fleet, which loses and kills about double the norm) suggests that nullsec is not at all poor, even after paying sov bills, for infrastructure, and for massive supercap building programs.

Nullsec is not poor and nullsec pilots are not poor in what matters (ships and their consumables). If they were they'd be risking and losing less value than pilots in other areas, and they aren't.
Frying Doom
#792 - 2013-03-10 06:25:38 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes the populace is poor I have to agree with you there, the alliances aren't but the populace is.

Well, that's a fault in the Alliances, nothing else. However, most seem to have pretty solid ship replacement policies, and many hand out ships as well, so while their members may not have much ISK, they don't lack for capital.

I did a pretty rough and ready check of the stats on EvE Who and EvE-Kill, and it turns out that nullsec alliances, both carebear and PvP, sov holding, and not, WH corps, and hisec alliances all have a pretty consistent ship value loss rate for about 50-100M ISK per pilot (not per account, because that's not data that was available to me) per month. That's it's within the same ballpark across the board (barring a few outliers like Solar Fleet, which loses and kills about double the norm) suggests that nullsec is not at all poor, even after paying sov bills, for infrastructure, and for massive supercap building programs.

Nullsec is not poor and nullsec pilots are not poor in what matters (ships and their consumables). If they were they'd be risking and losing less value than pilots in other areas, and they aren't.

I was referring to the amounts pilots can make in relation to the amounts that can be made in other areas such as hi-sec lvl 4s, not to hand outs given to pilots of the larger alliances.

You are generalizing the entire population of Null into what is done by the larger alliances and even then missing the point that a SRP is not income made by the players.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#793 - 2013-03-10 06:26:03 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

- Having people set up POSes would be delicious for me: I still have a whole array of faction POSes ready to be deployed, I have BPOs to build tons of POS structures. Also, more POSes deployed means more fuels and in my situation means I'd become hideously richer thanks to that. I also have multiple freighters and JF so logistics are a-OK.
So, for what regards me, go ahead and beat them hard! Pirate

That's a good point, and it will negatively everyone who has to import station fuel, including those in WH space. If they (quite reasonably) pass this increased cost on, WH products will also rise in price.
Frying Doom
#794 - 2013-03-10 06:28:36 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

- Having people set up POSes would be delicious for me: I still have a whole array of faction POSes ready to be deployed, I have BPOs to build tons of POS structures. Also, more POSes deployed means more fuels and in my situation means I'd become hideously richer thanks to that. I also have multiple freighters and JF so logistics are a-OK.
So, for what regards me, go ahead and beat them hard! Pirate

That's a good point, and it will negatively everyone who has to import station fuel, including those in WH space. If they (quite reasonably) pass this increased cost on, WH products will also rise in price.


Yes and people in WHs would not need a rorqual to be able to export minerals in quantity.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#795 - 2013-03-10 06:31:16 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
If you actually did industry in null you wouldn't be saying this. If you actually read the arguements, you wouldn't be saying this.

Or something just isn't clicking.


Here's what's clicking for me:

Industrialists are pets and have to do what they do crawling on their hands and knees in null sec, because they cannot muster any considerable amount of manpower to assist them.

If you can build a titan in null, you can build ANYTHING in null. The difference being that people will actually help you build a titan, but they won't help you build anything that is not at least a corp level asset. THAT is your problem.

Andski wrote:
also the vast majority of regular capitals are built in lowsec because building them in 0.0 hugely limits the potential market for capital builders, as they would have to be flown hull by hull to lowsec for sale on the open market


Thnk about that dynamic. Maybe it's not just true for capitals. Maybe that might have something to do with why nobody builds Rifters in null, either. It's not like just anyone can dock in your station and buy your merchandise.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#796 - 2013-03-10 06:31:24 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
I did a pretty rough and ready check of the stats on EvE Who and EvE-Kill, and it turns out that nullsec alliances, both carebear and PvP, sov holding, and not, WH corps, and hisec alliances all have a pretty consistent ship value loss rate for about 50-100M ISK per pilot (not per account, because that's not data that was available to me) per month. That's it's within the same ballpark across the board (barring a few outliers like Solar Fleet, which loses and kills about double the norm) suggests that nullsec is not at all poor, even after paying sov bills, for infrastructure, and for massive supercap building programs.

If you don't mind I'd like to see your methodology.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frying Doom
#797 - 2013-03-10 07:00:02 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
If you actually did industry in null you wouldn't be saying this. If you actually read the arguements, you wouldn't be saying this.

Or something just isn't clicking.


Here's what's clicking for me:

Industrialists are pets and have to do what they do crawling on their hands and knees in null sec, because they cannot muster any considerable amount of manpower to assist them.

If you can build a titan in null, you can build ANYTHING in null. The difference being that people will actually help you build a titan, but they won't help you build anything that is not at least a corp level asset. THAT is your problem.

Andski wrote:
also the vast majority of regular capitals are built in lowsec because building them in 0.0 hugely limits the potential market for capital builders, as they would have to be flown hull by hull to lowsec for sale on the open market


Thnk about that dynamic. Maybe it's not just true for capitals. Maybe that might have something to do with why nobody builds Rifters in null, either. It's not like just anyone can dock in your station and buy your merchandise.

So what you are saying is that because it is true for a few it must be true for everyone.

You are either a troll or an idiot, you decide.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#798 - 2013-03-10 07:57:06 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Zhade Lezte wrote:
Bah, being greedy is a point of pride P
(I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance)

Greed is good.

So is highsec.


Hilmar alt spotted! Cool

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#799 - 2013-03-10 08:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Zhade Lezte wrote:
Bah, being greedy is a point of pride P
(I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance)

And that's CCP's question to answer! People have wanted null revamped for years and CCP has decided to work on great features like incarna, highsec wars, and crimewatch instead. Granted they haven't ignored null entirely but the changes made are very few in number and haven't really changed things out here (or have in some cases made things worse), so unfortunately they haven't gained any gratitude from nullsec in that regard.


Finally a sedate (in the good sense), reasonable, nice GS player who seems to talk his mind and not a broken record player repeating the same passage nor a snotty intellectual! P

I'll tell you, I really hope you get all the changes you deserve and fast enough.
I too will look at certain incoming games (like Elite) that seem to suggest stuff I like (joystick dogfights, as avid flight sim player I really miss them! And trading with escorts, no blobs).
I love EvE markets to the point I reply to random posts like this with full fledged market analyses just for the sake of it, but like you I find CCP let too many basic foundations to age and rot. I.e. market interface looks like a '90 software despite we are meant to be in super-future. A future where apparently (unlike right now in RL) we don't have exchanges able to export data unless hacking into the game cache (and CCP Sreegs does not like it).

Let's see what Fanfest will promise this time... and then what will actually happen.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#800 - 2013-03-10 08:36:19 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:

When it comes to balancing issues something needs to be done with High/Null industry to try and spread people out of High or else the game will stagnate. Which is why personally I have conceded to the idea of nerfs to Highsec. Then again I doubt CCP has the balls to upset anyone in High or do any drastic change to the game.


Some things will never get fixed to allow people spreading out of hi sec (sort of removing hi sec completely).

The one factor denying that is that super average Mr. Joe who got 1 hour a day to do a L4 mission or mine 5 roids, is not going to be able to get in a proper corp. He won't have a scout alt, falcon alt and whatever other atrocious garbage this game is played with to "solo casual PvP around". He's going to be blobbed, hot dropped for the giggles, his 100k m3 PI stuff is going to get destroyed. The "unlocked" (= other secs) EvE is enemy of the prototype hi sec player.
Why other PvP games managed to attract average Joes (they are many many) despite not having the equivalent of an hi sec?

Because average Joes would: not suffer heavy losses on death or would give such guys a chance to survive when they poke their nose out of their base.

I know there are "soloers" flying Vindicators (full boosted, full drugs, billions implants of course...) but those are hardly average Joes.
Sure, those who stay playing EvE are of a better caliber than the average other MMO players.

But, sadly, it's not because a "best breed" naturally comes to EvE, but because everyone not best breed is brutally kicked out.

Now, with a never ending turnover, with many new players coming in etc. etc. this would not be a problem.

But these times? With global crysis yet a AAA game monthly fee to pay, plus all this bias against mediocre players, there's no way EvE will know the popularity it deserves.
Basically if one is mediocre or casual they are heavily "suggested" (read: kicked in the kidneys) to stay confined in the golden hi sec prison.

Yes it's golden, but it IS a prison and this is the worst nerf someone could want to impose on another player. Lack of slots is bad, but it's nothing compared to a less than halved player experience paid in full.

There's the argument they could go to TEST or something, but I don't see an expecially welcoming alliance as a reliable game mechanic.

I have done solo L4 in low sec. No ISK fountain sort of being able to replace the ship every 2 missions would make it worth doing - and this only knowing where to find the quiet systems. Else it's an exercise of frustration and you may as well fly coward and ninja anoms, finger ready on a warp / cloak and spamming scanner (the terribly thought on feature that singlehandedly kills 95% of the fun of playing EvE).

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