These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Zhade Lezte
#741 - 2013-03-10 02:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhade Lezte
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


[a whole bunch of being mired in specifics]


I don't think anyone here would think that awful gameplay elements would have to stay awful.

It's been stated before that if high and null industry became dependent on PoS it'd have to come with a PoS revamp.

Hell, maybe if they released new modules with the revamp and change to highsec industry greedy marketeers like you and I wouldn't be able to profit off it Big smile

Refining is an iffy thing as well. Some think that an automatic mining tax would be better than nerfing highsec refineries to keep miners from just jump freighting everything to highsec, and that null outposts should get stations equal to highsec in terms of industrial capability, containing refineries and also access to sufficient manufacturing slots.
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#742 - 2013-03-10 02:11:24 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I think that highsec dwellers should be able to have access to many of the same facilities they do now, provided they do it through a POS.

Small time highsec industrialists will probably find it easier to do their thing because of the nullsec industrialists moving to nullsec, and because of the big-time highsec industrialists moving their work to POSes.

Most people would probably see this as a buff if done properly.


I guess that's my cue to chime in again and remind folks that I disagree with James on this. No one who is manufacturing on site now is going to want the huge logistical chore required of living in a POS. Adding a ton of freightering to people's games that isn't currently required and adding pos costs and upkeep that isn't currently required - is no buff to high sec industry. You guys can keep calling it a buff, but it would be a game-changing nerf. And "small-time industrialists" (new players, casual players) aren't going to find any of this making their games "easier."

What. Ever.

I don't really care what is done to fix the game, (assuming the game needs fixing) but no one's going to sell me hooch and call it Johnny Walker Blue.

More available public slots is supposed to be some bonus? They're available now. And it won't matter anyway - folks would still need a pos to profit like everybody else. I don't know any better way to write it except to write that tethering a dynamic industry to a stationary object is not a buff. Nor is increasing the cost of doing business by a factor of thousands. All any of this would accomplish is reduce player fluidity and raise the bar (startup costs) on the time it takes to establish a new, successful indy corp. I really can't wait to hear from more high-sec industrialists expressing their unbridaled joy at the need for multiple pos's and hundreds of added freighter jumps per week. I'm sure they're on their way.

Annnnny minute now.

YK
Zhade Lezte
#743 - 2013-03-10 02:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhade Lezte
Yonis Kador wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I think that highsec dwellers should be able to have access to many of the same facilities they do now, provided they do it through a POS.

Small time highsec industrialists will probably find it easier to do their thing because of the nullsec industrialists moving to nullsec, and because of the big-time highsec industrialists moving their work to POSes.

Most people would probably see this as a buff if done properly.


I guess that's my cue to chime in again and remind folks that I disagree with James on this. No one who is manufacturing on site now is going to want the huge logistical chore required of living in a POS. Adding a ton of freightering to people's games that isn't currently required and adding pos costs and upkeep that isn't currently required - is no buff to high sec industry. You guys can keep calling it a buff, but it would be a game-changing nerf. And "small-time industrialists" (new players, casual players) aren't going to find any of this making their games "easier."

What. Ever.

I don't really care what is done to fix the game, (assuming the game needs fixing) but no one's going to sell me hooch and call it Johnny Walker Blue.

More available public slots is supposed to be some bonus? They're available now. And it won't matter anyway - folks would still need a pos to profit like everybody else. I don't know any better way to write it except to write that tethering a dynamic industry to a stationary object is not a buff. Nor is increasing the cost of doing business by a factor of thousands. All any of this would accomplish is reduce player fluidity and raise the bar (startup costs) on the time it takes to establish a new, successful indy corp. I really can't wait to hear from more high-sec industrialists expressing their unbridaled joy at the need for multiple pos's and hundreds of added freighter jumps per week. I'm sure they're on their way.

Annnnny minute now.

YK


Now imagine that, but without CONCORD protection! Because that is the current nullsec reality of needing to refine and build in separate outposts (and sometimes sell in a third!)

Anyways, most of the PoS proponents in discussion elsewhere have suggested that PoS be able to refine as well (and not like these terribly slow, inefficient refining arrays that currently exist), so they'd be a lot more functional than the PoS that exist today. Hopefully that means less tedious moving minerals about.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#744 - 2013-03-10 02:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Zhade Lezte wrote:

I don't think anyone here would think that awful gameplay elements would have to stay awful.

It's been stated before that if high and null industry became dependent on PoS it'd have to come with a PoS revamp.


I am not greedy, I openly share info on what I trade and how I trade it. Of course I won't spit on ISK when they come P

Anyway, by the super-heavy pressure imposed by the constant spamming of this kind of threads I have some doubts people want to wait for a POS revamp.

Even if CCP would really do a POSes revamp, we are talking about:

1) Finishing T1 tiericide.
2) Finishing cap ships graphics (and maybe not just that) revamp.
3) Doing faction ships tiericide.
4) Updating the T2 ships that have been obsoleted by T1 improved ships.
5) POS revamp
6) Null sec industry changes / hi sec nerfs or whatever.

This means *years* of waiting. How do you keep them quiet for years, if they seem tired of waiting right today?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#745 - 2013-03-10 02:19:29 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
I guess that's my cue to chime in again and remind folks that I disagree with James on this. No one who is manufacturing on site now is going to want the huge logistical chore required of living in a POS. Adding a ton of freightering to people's games that isn't currently required and adding pos costs and upkeep that isn't currently required

Of course not, that sort of rubbish is for the nullseccers to deal with.

Harsh and cold outside of highsec.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zhade Lezte
#746 - 2013-03-10 02:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhade Lezte
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Zhade Lezte wrote:

I don't think anyone here would think that awful gameplay elements would have to stay awful.

It's been stated before that if high and null industry became dependent on PoS it'd have to come with a PoS revamp.


I am not greedy, I openly share info on what I trade and how I trade it. Of course I won't spit on ISK when they come P

Anyway, by the super-heavy pressure imposed by the constant spamming of this kind of threads I have some doubts people want to wait for a POS revamp.

Even if CCP would really do a POSes revamp, we are talking about:

1) Finishing T1 tiericide.
2) Finishing cap ships graphics (and maybe not just that) revamp.
3) Doing faction ships tiericide.
4) Updating the T2 ships that have been obsoleted by T1 improved ships.
5) POS revamp
6) Null sec industry changes / hi sec nerfs or whatever.

This means *years* of waiting. How do you keep them quiet for years, if they seem tired of waiting right today?


Bah, being greedy is a point of pride P
(I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance)

And that's CCP's question to answer! People have wanted null revamped for years and CCP has decided to work on great features like incarna, highsec wars, and crimewatch instead. Granted they haven't ignored null entirely but the changes made are very few in number and haven't really changed things out here (or have in some cases made things worse), so unfortunately they haven't gained any gratitude from nullsec in that regard.

Better hope that nullsec likes pvp enough to enjoy tiercides and other bones like attack battlecruisers while going through that.

In more optimistic news, CCP has been very effective at getting tiercide done quickly unlike everything else in this game, so *maybe* they'll get through that list faster than years of waiting. Because I may be wrong, but I suspect waiting years will hurt their bottom line.
Frying Doom
#747 - 2013-03-10 02:33:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Zhade Lezte wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Zhade Lezte wrote:

I don't think anyone here would think that awful gameplay elements would have to stay awful.

It's been stated before that if high and null industry became dependent on PoS it'd have to come with a PoS revamp.


I am not greedy, I openly share info on what I trade and how I trade it. Of course I won't spit on ISK when they come P

Anyway, by the super-heavy pressure imposed by the constant spamming of this kind of threads I have some doubts people want to wait for a POS revamp.

Even if CCP would really do a POSes revamp, we are talking about:

1) Finishing T1 tiericide.
2) Finishing cap ships graphics (and maybe not just that) revamp.
3) Doing faction ships tiericide.
4) Updating the T2 ships that have been obsoleted by T1 improved ships.
5) POS revamp
6) Null sec industry changes / hi sec nerfs or whatever.

This means *years* of waiting. How do you keep them quiet for years, if they seem tired of waiting right today?


Bah, being greedy is a point of pride P
(I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance)

And that's CCP's question to answer! People have wanted null revamped for years and CCP has decided to work on great features like incarna, highsec wars, and crimewatch instead. Granted they haven't ignored null entirely but the changes made are very few in number and haven't really changed things out here (or have in some cases made things worse), so unfortunately they haven't gained any gratitude from nullsec in that regard.

Better hope that nullsec likes pvp enough to enjoy tiercides and other bones like attack battlecruisers while going through that.

In more optimistic news, CCP has been very effective at getting tiercide done quickly unlike everything else in this game, so *maybe* they'll get through that list faster than years of waiting. Because I may be wrong, but I suspect waiting years will hurt their bottom line.

I think CCP has left the clock ticking for so long, leaving things broken that with all the cool games that have been announced they are crapping them selves a bit. Which is why we have the new idea of them working of a lot of different things at the same time to try to reduce as many of the broken mechanics as possible before those games release.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#748 - 2013-03-10 02:35:01 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I never avoided admitting that hi sec should be completely removed, feel free to check my past posts including in this thread.

Frankly I think that's equally stupid. There are people who enjoy the relative safety that highsec offers. So long as it isn't complete safe and people are still able to be held accountable for their own stupidity. Highsec is fine as long as it doesn't get any safer.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
- NPC Refineries, once nerfed at null sec quality would still provide almost no loss to people with proper skills / implants. Thus the nerf would be ineffective for anyone except new players. Do you see anything wrong with this?

That's rather easy to fix, just reduce the bonus to refining amounts someone can get with skills, standings, etc.
Don't reduce the base, simply reduce the cap. Say, maximum possible refine you can get would be 85% in an NPC station.
If someone wants perfect refine they can do it in a POS. Ideally POS facilities should be superior in some ways to NPC station facilities, including refining.

Basically your idea is good game balance (less than my idea to remove hi and low sec but still...) but to me it sounds like those doctors who announce: "the surgery was a success, but the patient died".

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Do you really believe that imposing sucky burdens (POS micromanagement that nobody likes) and expenses will gain EvE success on the long term?

Said POS micromanagement would hopefully be addressed in this expansion or in a prior one. I agree that imposing it on people would be an unfair burden.
People will whine about expenses at first, and then they'll forget they were ever there.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#749 - 2013-03-10 02:39:35 UTC
Zhade Lezte wrote:
Bah, being greedy is a point of pride P
(I at least try to help out people too, perhaps not as much as you do and mostly just in my alliance)

Greed is good.

So is highsec.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zhade Lezte
#750 - 2013-03-10 02:58:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhade Lezte
Frying Doom wrote:

I think CCP has left the clock ticking for so long, leaving things broken that with all the cool games that have been announced they are crapping them selves a bit. Which is why we have the new idea of them working of a lot of different things at the same time to try to reduce as many of the broken mechanics as possible before those games release.


Yeah I was thinking of that while trying to edit my reply you quoted to be a bit more nuanced than my fairly simplistic answer.

I mean, a lot of veteran nullsec players are probably very obsessed and invested in this game so theoretically CCP can ignore us longer like they have, but even that patience has a limit, and a lot of people I know barely play Eve and instead play these other new and interesting games while talking on jabber about Eve. And at least a few players I know have gone from that step to not playing Eve at all.

I don't even know about these other other games that have been announced but not yet released save Star Citizen because Eve is pretty much the only game I have time to play due to real life, but if there are more interesting games come out...welp.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#751 - 2013-03-10 03:04:20 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots?


Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now?
Also, no, I don't know how we small time empire industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots. I'll grant you that there are very rarely any ME, PE, or Copying slots open but there are a lot of ways to deal with a lack of station industry slots. Maybe we could teach you guys about some of them, since you don't seem to be familiar with the work-arounds.

Zhade Lezte wrote:
Hey I'm making the best of a terribly broken situation already. Two characters doing industry in highsec with a third one training up . . . Guess whose industry alt also flies a talos and is on that killmail you linked?


We're all making the best of "broken" situations. Some are more broken than others. Until you tell us how to measure its broken-ness (i.e. lack of ships and other production), we can't really gauge how broken it is. You may not like limitations, but they are a crucial part of the gaming condition. Without them, we'd just have infinite pawns, rooks, bishops, knights, queens, and kings rushing forward endlessly massacring eachother.

Rather than looking at it as if null sec has far fewer industry slots than high sec (and low sec), maybe you should look at it this way: EVE has a finite number of station industry slots, expandable only to a theoretical hard limit, and those slots are distributed unevenly throughout the galaxy, such that players must choose whether to place more emphasis on utilizing those slots or on gathering resources. The result of that decisions determines whether they choose to spend most of their time in high sec, low sec, null sec, or even wormhole space.

You've made your choice, and even circumvented much of the consequence through your "clever" use of alts. If you don't like the results of your choice, choose again.

Zhade Lezte wrote:
::a cool story::


Cool story, bro. I especially enjoyed the part where I was a hardcore mission-bear having to brave 0.0 space. To boldy carebear where no carebear has carebeared before . . . that would be AWESOME!

My only request: Could you exaggerate it just a little bit harder? Maybe use some plague, famine, decay, and death or possibly something about pony genocide? I'm not quite getting the fear and impending doom I think you were intending to convey.
Zhade Lezte
#752 - 2013-03-10 03:11:21 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
You've made your choice, and even circumvented much of the consequence through your "clever" use of alts. If you don't like the results of your choice, choose again.


Well if this stops working out enough for me I'll choose to not play Eve Online. So it goes.

Doesn't mean the game can't be improved!

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Cool story, bro. I especially enjoyed the part where I was a hardcore mission-bear having to brave 0.0 space. To boldy carebear where no carebear has carebeared before . . . that would be AWESOME!

My only request: Could you exaggerate it just a little bit harder? Maybe use some plague, famine, decay, and death or possibly something about pony genocide? I'm not quite getting the fear and impending doom I think you were intending to convey.


Why thank you my posting is pretty great if I do say so myself. Maybe you even learned something! That would be pretty great Big smile
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#753 - 2013-03-10 03:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots?


Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now?

Wrong. The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone.

And LOL at "you've circumvented consequences, that means it isn't broken".
YEAH OKAY

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frying Doom
#754 - 2013-03-10 03:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Zhade Lezte wrote:
Maybe you even learned something!

Only the all mighty BoB can perform miracles.

All praise BoB!

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#755 - 2013-03-10 03:19:36 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots?


Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now?

Wrong. The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone.

And LOL at "you've circumvented consequences, that means it isn't broken".
YEAH OKAY

What it really means is you need to break highsec to really make nullsec cry. So, are you willing to take the hit to hurt null?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#756 - 2013-03-10 03:21:31 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots?


Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now?

Wrong. The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone.

And LOL at "you've circumvented consequences, that means it isn't broken".
YEAH OKAY

What it really means is you need to break highsec to really make nullsec cry. So, are you willing to take the hit to hurt null?

Actually I thought he meant he would like to see the Null sec residents flood all of the available slots in Hi-sec so he can enjoy how not broken the system isBig smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#757 - 2013-03-10 03:30:00 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You know how smalltime highsec industrialists complain about never being able to find open industry slots?


Wait . . . I thought high sec industrialists were the backbone of every major alliance, since null industry is so broken. We're small time, now?

Wrong. The null sec industrialists, who are doing their industry work in highsec, are the backbone.

And LOL at "you've circumvented consequences, that means it isn't broken".
YEAH OKAY

What it really means is you need to break highsec to really make nullsec cry. So, are you willing to take the hit to hurt null?

Actually I thought he meant he would like to see the Null sec residents flood all of the available slots in Hi-sec so he can enjoy how not broken the system isBig smile

No, you see, it's because blue donut tech and renters.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#758 - 2013-03-10 03:35:51 UTC
Zhade Lezte wrote:
Now imagine that, but without CONCORD protection! Because that is the current nullsec reality of needing to refine and build in separate outposts (and sometimes sell in a third!)


Please. Tell us again how hard it is for null sec to earn ISK, especially Goons. It's soooooo interesting.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#759 - 2013-03-10 03:36:22 UTC
That... doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frying Doom
#760 - 2013-03-10 03:37:51 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:
Zhade Lezte wrote:
Now imagine that, but without CONCORD protection! Because that is the current nullsec reality of needing to refine and build in separate outposts (and sometimes sell in a third!)


Please. Tell us again how hard it is for null sec to earn ISK, especially Goons. It's soooooo interesting.

You seemed very obsessed with Goonswarm while at the same time being very ignorant as to how the tech income works.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!