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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#681 - 2013-03-09 08:25:33 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.

Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.

And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work.


If Nullsec becomes self-sufficient, as so many nullbear types seem to want, EVE's economy will go to hell as Highsec withers and dies. Healthy economies trade between regions, and different regions have comparative advantages in different products. If nullsec is simply better for everything, as you advocate, then highsec will bleed wealth like crazy, because it's not self-sufficient (and I bet that you're not advocating giving highsec access to tech moons and high-end ores so it can be self-sufficient as well).
Frying Doom
#682 - 2013-03-09 08:47:59 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.

Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.

And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work.


If Nullsec becomes self-sufficient, as so many nullbear types seem to want, EVE's economy will go to hell as Highsec withers and dies. Healthy economies trade between regions, and different regions have comparative advantages in different products. If nullsec is simply better for everything, as you advocate, then highsec will bleed wealth like crazy, because it's not self-sufficient (and I bet that you're not advocating giving highsec access to tech moons and high-end ores so it can be self-sufficient as well).

Well tech moons need to die, they should have never existed in the first place and frankly things like that should be scattered all over 0.4 and below space.

As to high-ends they do not exist only in Null and I think giving everything to high sec hardly makes reward=risk*capital expenditure work do you?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#683 - 2013-03-09 08:54:52 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Well tech moons need to die, they should have never existed in the first place and frankly things like that should be scattered all over 0.4 and below space.

As to high-ends they do not exist only in Null and I think giving everything to high sec hardly makes reward=risk*capital expenditure work do you?


Tech Moons aren't 0.0 only. There are some in (northern)lowsec, for example Iitanmadan has at least 2. Though I do agree the change they made to tech was a bad one.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Frying Doom
#684 - 2013-03-09 09:37:47 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Well tech moons need to die, they should have never existed in the first place and frankly things like that should be scattered all over 0.4 and below space.

As to high-ends they do not exist only in Null and I think giving everything to high sec hardly makes reward=risk*capital expenditure work do you?


Tech Moons aren't 0.0 only. There are some in (northern)lowsec, for example Iitanmadan has at least 2. Though I do agree the change they made to tech was a bad one.

Yeah I am aware of the approximate locations of the tech moons, someone posted them up recently, I was just saying that there positions are still to limited.

But it doesn't really matter as either way around, tech moons need to be taken around the back of the shed and shot.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#685 - 2013-03-09 10:05:19 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Null-sec industry should be able to provide for the needs of the alliance without relying on high-sec imports, when properly staffed and supported. It shouldn't be relevant to anything happening in high-sec.

Right now, high-sec industry beats null-sec industry by such a margin that imports are more reliable and probably even cheaper than producing locally.

And I won't talk about the need for a carebear adoption program for null-sec cradles to make null-sec industry work.


If Nullsec becomes self-sufficient, as so many nullbear types seem to want, EVE's economy will go to hell as Highsec withers and dies. Healthy economies trade between regions, and different regions have comparative advantages in different products. If nullsec is simply better for everything, as you advocate, then highsec will bleed wealth like crazy, because it's not self-sufficient (and I bet that you're not advocating giving highsec access to tech moons and high-end ores so it can be self-sufficient as well).

My 'vision' is not to just boost them into independence, but to give them the toys they can set up to boost the systems themselves, within rules and reason. And all improvements can be destroyed (or conquered) by a variety of fleet sizes to invite conflict. So the 'nullbears' can't just sit on their asses and enjoy the fruits of plenty, they need to fight for them or lose them.

By allowing smaller entities to harass the big bears, the highbears can come down to the nullbears and take a few bites out of the big blue donut if they feel it's too peaceful there. Grinding huge structures would only be the hamfisted way to conquer sov. Biting at ankles long enough and taking over key locations can in the long run turn a system over to you.

Variety, choices, options, consequences, customizability. It should be a sand box, not a rock quarry. Of course that would need a lot of work on the design side. I'll post my stuff once I can be arsed to put it all in words, structure and maybe even pictures.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#686 - 2013-03-09 10:14:02 UTC
Domina Trix wrote:
I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas.

And for what reasons is this desirable?
Frying Doom
#687 - 2013-03-09 10:20:42 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Domina Trix wrote:
I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas.

And for what reasons is this desirable?

It would allow the game to grow

It would give industrialists more options than just Hi-sec and it would add a new layer of complexity to the game as people would have more ways to trade than just shipping everything to Jita.

It would also allow for people in other areas like traders to have a reason to go into Null sec to trade. As well as giving players a less repetitive gaming experience.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#688 - 2013-03-09 12:22:25 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
It would allow the game to grow

It would give industrialists more options than just Hi-sec and it would add a new layer of complexity to the game as people would have more ways to trade than just shipping everything to Jita.

It would also allow for people in other areas like traders to have a reason to go into Null sec to trade. As well as giving players a less repetitive gaming experience.


Nothing is stopping the game from growing, except that when people go out to null, they get slaughtered. It has nothing to do with the cost of building a Rifter out there.

Industrialists already have more options than just high sec. (You do realize that it takes quite a highly skilled industrialist to build a supercapital, and those are only built in null?) If players are too stupid to realize and understand their options, then they are supposed to be worse off. Not everyone ships things TO Jita, and transactions of all sorts take place in markets other than The Forge. It just so happens that The Forge has a large population, so a large volume of the market activity that takes place happens there.

Traders already have reasons to go to null and low sec. You said yourself that lots of stuff is shipped to Jita. Well, much of that stuff comes from null, low, and W-space, and it is shipped there by "traders".

This whole thread is just a call for more Retrievers and Iterons to be flying around in null, so the null players can shoot them. If null industry is broken, then WTF are you getting titans and supercarriers and hordes of Tier 3 battleships from?
Frying Doom
#689 - 2013-03-09 12:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
It would allow the game to grow

It would give industrialists more options than just Hi-sec and it would add a new layer of complexity to the game as people would have more ways to trade than just shipping everything to Jita.

It would also allow for people in other areas like traders to have a reason to go into Null sec to trade. As well as giving players a less repetitive gaming experience.


Nothing is stopping the game from growing, except that when people go out to null, they get slaughtered. It has nothing to do with the cost of building a Rifter out there.

Industrialists already have more options than just high sec. (You do realize that it takes quite a highly skilled industrialist to build a supercapital, and those are only built in null?) If players are too stupid to realize and understand their options, then they are supposed to be worse off. Not everyone ships things TO Jita, and transactions of all sorts take place in markets other than The Forge. It just so happens that The Forge has a large population, so a large volume of the market activity that takes place happens there.

Traders already have reasons to go to null and low sec. You said yourself that lots of stuff is shipped to Jita. Well, much of that stuff comes from null, low, and W-space, and it is shipped there by "traders".

This whole thread is just a call for more Retrievers and Iterons to be flying around in null, so the null players can shoot them. If null industry is broken, then WTF are you getting titans and supercarriers and hordes of Tier 3 battleships from?

Well the supers are strangely built in null which requires being in a sov holding corp. Which I like a lot of people are not.

As to the battleships, like everything else for null I am sure they would be imported from jita requiring billions in capital.

Something is not an option, for an industrialist if it is less profitable for greater risk and capital out lay.

As to traders I was referring to the ones that never undock.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Josef Djugashvilis
#690 - 2013-03-09 12:53:06 UTC
Abrazzar sums up what may be the flaw in null-sec getting enough quality production facilities, when he argues that null should be self sufficient.

Surely the idea is to increase the interaction between the different sectors of Eve?

Give hi-sec folk reasons to go to null - the stake-holder proposal may be one way to do this.

Hi-sec folk staying in hi-sec, lo-sec folk staying in lo-sec and null-sec folk staying in null-sec cannot be good for the game.

Perhaps the way to improve null is to do some blue-sky thinking and come up with some entirely new game-play for that part of the game.

I have no axe to grind in this, I do not care where the ships I fly are manufactured.

If we all had ways to play and prosper in all parts of Eve, perhaps the silly, 'us versus them' would die off, and we could all respect each other and different play-styles.

This is not a signature.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#691 - 2013-03-09 12:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Industrialists already have more options than just high sec. (You do realize that it takes quite a highly skilled industrialist to build a supercapital, and those are only built in null?)

If null industry is broken, then WTF are you getting titans and supercarriers and hordes of Tier 3 battleships from?

Because you literally can only build these titans and super carriers in nullsec? Sov nullsec, to be specific.
You jump freighter in the minerals. In 425mm Railgun I form, to be specific.

Should we also say oh now you can build XXYY ONLY in nullec?


Battleships are imported in, as well.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#692 - 2013-03-09 13:00:50 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Domina Trix wrote:
I think nullsec industry should be better than high sec because it might attract more players and corporations into those areas.

And for what reasons is this desirable?

It would allow the game to grow

It would give industrialists more options than just Hi-sec and it would add a new layer of complexity to the game as people would have more ways to trade than just shipping everything to Jita.

It would also allow for people in other areas like traders to have a reason to go into Null sec to trade. As well as giving players a less repetitive gaming experience.

But people would unsub ! This is not desirable.

Highsec, best sec, 4lyfe.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#693 - 2013-03-09 13:09:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Abrazzar sums up what may be the flaw in null-sec getting enough quality production facilities, when he argues that null should be self sufficient.

Surely the idea is to increase the interaction between the different sectors of Eve?

Give hi-sec folk reasons to go to null - the stake-holder proposal may be one way to do this.

Hi-sec folk staying in hi-sec, lo-sec folk staying in lo-sec and null-sec folk staying in null-sec cannot be good for the game.

Perhaps the way to improve null is to do some blue-sky thinking and come up with some entirely new game-play for that part of the game.

I have no axe to grind in this, I do not care where the ships I fly are manufactured.

If we all had ways to play and prosper in all parts of Eve, perhaps the silly, 'us versus them' would die off, and we could all respect each other and different play-styles.

Actually the part I find funniest is when people call me a null bear to justify their arguments.

Yes a change from NPC to player owned would benefit me very slightly to start with but I have no characters in Null but I would like to see all of the different areas competing and for industry to be worth while everywhere.

This is more about giving industrialists the same choices PvP players have than anything else.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#694 - 2013-03-09 13:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tesal wrote:
uhhh....There aren't any teams at CCP doing a POS revamp right now.
…and I'm not talking about POSes either, now am I?

Quote:
Most of the industry stuff wanted as a part of the "null agenda" isn't on the table right now
…and is still in line with what's the clueless highsec-bubblers are trying to prevent. Of course, this should come as no surprise, since it rather seems to make sense that the developers want balanced gameplay. What doesn't make sense is why people with no insight into the topic want the game to be unbalanced…

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Industrialists already have more options than just in high sec.
Fixed. Outside of highsec, industrialists only really have two options: caps and reactions. In highsec, they have everything else (which is a fair bit more). Something that is entirely senseless is not an option.

Saying that they have more options is much like saying that, if accepting an L4 instantly exploded your ship and caused you to fail the mission, running them was still an option for making ISK.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#695 - 2013-03-09 14:54:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Industrialists already have more options than just in high sec.
Fixed. Outside of highsec, industrialists only really have two options: caps and reactions. In highsec, they have everything else (which is a fair bit more). Something that is entirely senseless is not an option.

Saying that they have more options is much like saying that, if accepting an L4 instantly exploded your ship and caused you to fail the mission, running them was still an option for making ISK.

Senseless, harsh, cold.

EVE Online.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#696 - 2013-03-09 15:08:05 UTC
Strange how back in that "force projection" thread I mentioned how limiting it would give you a platform for asking for industry changes. I got laughed at. I was told we NEEDED the logistics in order to survive, that null had to have highsec in order to continue on. That force projection and limited jumps would be bad.

Because it would hurt the little guy more than the large. Because null needed highsec for its' industry. That using highsec alts was too important.

I was told I didn't know what I was talking about because endorsing a change to limiting JF and Titan and cyno jump distances would be BETTER for null as it would create, as a byproduct, a stance that industry should be increased for null because the far reaches of space (the small deadend corners that large nullsecc coalitions said would be the small groups only hope for sov) wouldn't be able to survive and would need to clamor for an alternative way to accomplish that.

Such as better nullsec industry.

I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. That I should stay out of it. I didn't understand the mechanics.

This is true, I don't understand the mechanics. I am still learning.

I do however know how to build things step by step. I have a longer view of things and am not a slave to instant gratification. The same people who laughed me out of that thread are the ones who are clinging so hard to the idea that nullsec should have a more autonomous foothold in their sov space by not depending on highsec for industry.

Heh. Hypocrite.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#697 - 2013-03-09 15:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Murk Paradox wrote:
I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. That I should stay out of it. I didn't understand the mechanics.

This is true, I don't understand the mechanics. I am still learning.


Finish learning, then go & look at CCP's history of nerfing now & planning to make up for it later (Hint: The making up for it part never happens). You were basically suggesting another nerf to nullsec for the benefit of highsec, which would give CCP more reason to ignore the glaring holes they've left in nullsec on the basis that they had just done a revamp (nerf) for it.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#698 - 2013-03-09 15:58:12 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
flakeys wrote:

And i just said that should be the case .Beter minerals , better ratting , plexes , building your titans and offcourse that o so precious technetium.Null reward should be bigger and that should be obvious.

So , that cleared up and keeping in mind what i said above that industry works as explained , why should null have bigger industry then empire?Or is it just simply the ' We wanna have it all on our side of the sandbox' mentality?Because as usuall that impression is pounding hard on the door at the moment.


Null's reward is bigger, substantially bigger than the rest of Eve. The rest of New Eden can't help it if you're giving all your moongoo profit to your alliance leaving your individual players with a pat on the back telling them "at'ta boy!"and sht in both hands.

If null was handed everything, the rest of New Eden laid waste, those alliances who you've handed the chains to the dog collars around your corps' necks would still want more from you and you'd still be left with figuring out how to improve null by taking more from an empty Hisec.

If I didn't know any better and I just read that I would presume all of Null was just one alliance with all of the moongoo.

That is the problem in this discussion so many people are worried about the goons, what about people who are not in Goonswarm?


If the other areas of null that didn't have moon-goo had such a thing, you quickly would be in goonswarm or be out of null.

Don't ban me, bro!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#699 - 2013-03-09 16:01:07 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
If I didn't know any better and I just read that I would presume all of Null was just one alliance with all of the moongoo.

That is the problem in this discussion so many people are worried about the goons, what about people who are not in Goonswarm?

If the other areas of null that didn't have moon-goo had such a thing, you quickly would be in goonswarm or be out of null.

We're supposed to be that awesome?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#700 - 2013-03-09 16:01:49 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. That I should stay out of it. I didn't understand the mechanics.

This is true, I don't understand the mechanics. I am still learning.

Finish learning, then go & look at CCP's history of nerfing now & planning to make up for it later (Hint: The making up for it part never happens). You were basically suggesting another nerf to nullsec for the benefit of highsec, which would give CCP more reason to ignore the glaring holes they've left in nullsec on the basis that they had just done a revamp (nerf) for it.

Never not be nerfing nullsec. Eventually the crying will stop.

When it's dead.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?