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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#641 - 2013-03-08 22:10:53 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:

The only problem is they dont want things to change on their end. They like their null care bear lifestyle. They just want to force the horde of high sec players to have to find their way into their waiting cross hairs or into renting form their alliances.
Wait we're going to force them from carebearing in highsec... into our carebear nullsec crosshairs where they will be carebearing and evidently we too will also be carebearing, even though the delination between 'us' and 'them' would be effectively nonexistent. What if we kill one of our carebears in nullsec because we confused it for a highsec carebear forced into a nullsec alliance and using nullsec space? What then?

Surprise nullbear, you are the carebears.

GB2Highsec

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#642 - 2013-03-08 22:19:58 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
If these intellectually dishonest null high sec players thast complain here really cared about null sec and the game they would be pushing for substantial changes to null and sovereignty that everyone KNOWS are needed instead of wasting time complaining about mining barge EHP and high sec carebears non-existent nullsec cabals.

The motives are clear as day. CCP is full of intelligent people as well and they see this for what is as well.
Fixed. And yes, CCP is full of intelligent people that see that the highsec brigade are utterly clueless about just about everything they ever choose to opine (and thus be wrong) about. That's why they're aiming to massively improve nullsec industry to make it better than what high has to offer.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#643 - 2013-03-08 22:53:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
If these intellectually dishonest null high sec players thast complain here really cared about null sec and the game they would be pushing for substantial changes to null and sovereignty that everyone KNOWS are needed instead of wasting time complaining about mining barge EHP and high sec carebears non-existent nullsec cabals.

The motives are clear as day. CCP is full of intelligent people as well and they see this for what is as well.
Fixed. And yes, CCP is full of intelligent people that see that the highsec brigade are utterly clueless about just about everything they ever choose to opine (and thus be wrong) about. That's why they're aiming to massively improve nullsec industry to make it better than what high has to offer.



I like to think /some/ of us aren't completely clueless.

Sure, I'd prefer not to see high-sec significantly downgraded for business (As it's where I do my work.) but upgrading null to at least match it makes sense.

One of the reasons I've been suggesting time based changes, rather than cost based ones.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#644 - 2013-03-08 23:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kane Alvo
Tippia wrote:
Fixed. And yes, CCP is full of intelligent people that see that the highsec brigade are utterly clueless about just about everything they ever choose to opine (and thus be wrong) about. That's why they're aiming to massively improve nullsec industry to make it better than what high has to offer.


Your motives are clear as well, especially when most of you null bears talk down to the rest of the population as if living in your deluxe apartment in the sky grants you special powers over everyone else. Pro tip: you're not special just because you live in null sec. You're too blind to see past your own ambition and often confuse needs vs wants...usually intentionally.

It's hilarious that most of you (including your chief drum beater, Malcanis) try to champion yourselves as wanting null sec buffs "for the common man". It reads exactly like what it really is: meaningless drivel. Null sec is intended to give large power blocks a very open end of the sandbox for player-generated content, and every single one of you advocates for more CCP and NPC intervention to make it more like high sec, at the same time calling for high sec nerfs. If you think for a second that players are going to start moving to null because of industrial opportunities, you're a fool and I'm telling you so.

The solution is very simple. If you want more, go take it. Go to war with your blue neighbors and expand your territory to include better tech opportunities. Form a coalition and go knock down the Goons door. Furthermore, even as a 3 month old newb, I can understand how the tiered industrial process works. Since you fail to understand even the very basic premise of industry and how the different areas of space need and interact with one another, then there's really not much help for you.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#645 - 2013-03-08 23:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kane Alvo wrote:
Your motives are clear as well, especially when most of you null bears
…so what you're saying is that my motives are obscured to you — after all, you haven't even been able to properly identify me as a highsec industrialist.

Quote:
Null sec is intended to give large power blocks a very open end of the sandbox for player-generated content, and every single one of you advocates for more CCP and NPC intervention to make it more like high sec
Incorrect. We're advocating for CCP intervention to make it less about NPCs and highsec, and to provide more player-generated content rather than have NPCs offer everything. The fact that player-owned space offers less options and less control for players than NPC-owned space is rather telling…

Quote:
The solution is very simple. If you want more, go take it.
Too bad the game doesn't allow for it. Gee, do you think that maybe that's why people are asking for a change so that it does…?

So yes, it's simple, but no, it's not a solution.
Primary Me
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#646 - 2013-03-08 23:21:25 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:

CCP has slowly changed high sec and made it a place were one can live and play and make a living over the years. The game has grown exponentially over the years.

Correlation? Why yes, yes there is....

Correlation does not imply causation. It appears you are running out of logical arguments. Try ranting instead?
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#647 - 2013-03-08 23:21:28 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Making friends with the NPCs in highsec is much better.


You mad.

Big smile

What really needs to happen is CCP needs to break up the big blue donut. I would be willing to bet that null sec will be substantially changed long before any nerf comes to high sec.

The tears will be glorious coming from these null sec care bears as their isk faucets dry up and they actually have to work to hold onto systems.

No.

The "Big Blue Donut" will break up on its own because people are that way.

Just as they shouldn't be asking for NPC resources into player owned space, CCP shouldn't interfere beyond setting the ground rules for that space.

I personally think the rules should be different to encourage small-ish empires and more surface area for conflict, but the big empires of even a year ago have changed, with many of them gone completely. That is sufficient.

It is possible to break the donut, and some *player* will come up with the wherewithal to do so.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#648 - 2013-03-08 23:27:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
So yes, it's simple, but no, it's not a solution.


For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.


Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#649 - 2013-03-08 23:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Wait did a "3 month old newb" say he knows more about how things work then Malcanis, Tippia, and the other Goons. Whom of which have years of experience dealing with it. Odd.

E: If thats the case, I would suggest attempting trying to "build an empire" using the failed mechanics CCP has put into place in null.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#650 - 2013-03-09 00:02:52 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
The motives are clear as day. CCP is full of intelligent people as well and they see this for what is as well.

Which is why they're buffing nullsec industry to be self-sufficient, right?
I mean, they are. That's a stated goal for them, clear as day.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
LazyWren
Legion's Knights Of The Round
#651 - 2013-03-09 00:08:03 UTC
Acac Sunflyier wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.

A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.

So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?


Part of your problem is you do not understand nullsec industry.

First issue is: You need three stations to do in nullsec what you can do in one highsec station. The outposts are broken down into the four races; the gallente have the most offices, the minmitar has the best refining, the amarr have production slots, and caldari research. That will require 24 mill a day or 720 mill a month. There's also the problem where the lines do get backed up. Even though they're kinda private the stations don't have near enough production slots to do anything in grad schemes and numbers to support those huge fights in the news. Not to mention there are industry upgrades needed for the good belts. So that's going to require a lot of man power to maintain as it decays without use. Also the stations need to be upgraded. Each upgrade costs minerals, isk, and blue print time. Here's a list.

Second issue is double taxation. Belt ratters get charged one tax for their income per payout; what ever percent that may be. However the industrialists get double taxed for refining and then again when the alliance buys the stuff from the industrial at the discount rate (tax rate).

Another problem is the logistics. The only way to get any fuel, component, or minerals moved is through a jump freighter. Not only are they god damned expensive too buy, the fuel costs cut into any hope of profit. They're a pain to move as well. And you have to use them to import and export to jita. No way can viators handle what a jf can do in a reasonable amount of time.

Those industry upgrades, that I mentioned earlier, actually increase the frequency and quality of the hidden belt. If a neutral pops into local (which they will regularly) the first thing they do is see if they can grab a belt kill. This means that miners gotta stop what they're doing every five to ten minutes. For industry to be conducted in any quantifiable manner, they need to mine for a good bit of time, rather than be interrupted every time. This is why hidden belts rock. Some chancer isn't going to ruin your day for a lazy kill. One roaming sabre can ruin a well planned mining op pdq. When you're in a grav site the neutral actually have to put in a little itty bitty effort to scan a miner's ass down.

The real issue is the amount of minerals needed to conduct an alliance's day to day business (cta, structure grinding, etc). This is why 425mm rails are bought so much. When you see a sov jf kill look at how many rail guns are in the cargo. The 425mm is the best item for mineral compression. Mineral compression is when, during reprocessing, nearly as many minerals are taken out of the item as were put in to produce the item being reprocessed. That costs money for the rails, for the production, for the jump fuel, for the cynos, etc etc.

All this is beyond the realm of highsec industry. Where a highsec miner's biggest issue isn't being able to afk mine in a few areas or the production line.



Before you even think of mentioning moon profit know that a) not everybody has access to tech and b) the profit margins on a non power block complex reaction are around one to two percent.


OMG you are such a null bear, cry moar?! Good with the bad and all that. The taxation thing you mentioned is of your own creation not the games.

I'm going to have to claim ignorance on the fuel issue as I've never mined in null, are Ice and low end minerals/ores totally exclusive to hi sec? I would have no way of getting tritanium or water/ozone/topes in low/null? Serious question as I don't do resource collection.
Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#652 - 2013-03-09 00:11:35 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Wait did a "3 month old newb" say he knows more about how things work then Malcanis, Tippia, and the other Goons. Whom of which have years of experience dealing with it. Odd.

E: If thats the case, I would suggest attempting trying to "build an empire" using the failed mechanics CCP has put into place in null.


Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. T2 production needs T1 goods, that must be imported from high sec, which can then be exported back. It's very simple. Null bears want it all in their own backyard. Personally, I'm all for giving null sec exactly what they want: complete autonomy. Cut them off completely from high sec, buff their industry, and even go so far as to give them their own form of currency.

Are you really going to try to make the point that it's difficult to build an empire, when you used Goons as an example just one sentence earlier? Really? These guys are a bunch of somethingawful.com forum trolls who have controlled large blocks of this game for how long now?

Roll

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#653 - 2013-03-09 00:11:36 UTC
LazyWren wrote:
I'm going to have to claim ignorance on the fuel issue as I've never mined in null, are Ice and low end minerals/ores totally exclusive to hi sec? I would have no way of getting tritanium or water/ozone/topes in low/null? Serious question as I don't do resource collection.




There are low ends in null, but they're in relatively low quantities, relative to the size of the belt. (Or so I've had explained to me)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#654 - 2013-03-09 00:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Kane Alvo wrote:
Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed.

Except you don't. "Balance" is something I'd consider fundamental, and that's something you clearly don't understand.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#655 - 2013-03-09 00:19:07 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kane Alvo wrote:
Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed.

Except you don't. "Balance" is something I'd consider fundamental, and that's something you clearly don't understand.

Screw balance, highsec4lyfe.

And safety.

And ???

And profit.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#656 - 2013-03-09 00:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Steve Ronuken wrote:
LazyWren wrote:
I'm going to have to claim ignorance on the fuel issue as I've never mined in null, are Ice and low end minerals/ores totally exclusive to hi sec? I would have no way of getting tritanium or water/ozone/topes in low/null? Serious question as I don't do resource collection.

There are low ends in null, but they're in relatively low quantities, relative to the size of the belt. (Or so I've had explained to me)

This is exactly the case. Compared to what it needs for say a few battleships (let along a supercapital), mining in nullsec will not get you there. You have to play the ~export to Jita to sell, then buy minerals in Jita, compress near Jita and JF to null, refine and then build~ game.

You can mine ice in null. But you can do it in highsec, with ~safety~. So at best you mine the ore and then send to Jita, sell, buy the fuel you need and JF it back.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#657 - 2013-03-09 00:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Kane Alvo wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Wait did a "3 month old newb" say he knows more about how things work then Malcanis, Tippia, and the other Goons. Whom of which have years of experience dealing with it. Odd.

E: If thats the case, I would suggest attempting trying to "build an empire" using the failed mechanics CCP has put into place in null.


Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed. T2 production needs T1 goods, that must be imported from high sec, which can then be exported back. It's very simple. Null bears want it all in their own backyard. Personally, I'm all for giving null sec exactly what they want: complete autonomy. Cut them off completely from high sec, buff their industry, and even go so far as to give them their own form of currency.

Are you really going to try to make the point that it's difficult to build an empire, when you used Goons as an example just one sentence earlier? Really? These guys are a bunch of somethingawful.com forum trolls who have controlled large blocks of this game for how long now?

Roll


Bringing up T2 is funny, since most of the materials needed(moon mins) mainly come from null. Yet null doesn't even have the industrial capabilities to do any sort of major production. This is a "NPC" failure due to the limited spots in null outposts and the even more PITA control of POSs which makes production extremely risky and limited.

About your 2nd comment, I do bring up goons. You seem to not really understand goons as a whole. Their "vocal minority" is what you seem to associate the entirety of goons. When actually there are many goons who know quite a good amount. Their long presence in null proves my point and negates your opinion of them. Obviously with Goons continual survival in null shows they know about the failures of the current system. So long as they remember to pay their bills.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
LazyWren
Legion's Knights Of The Round
#658 - 2013-03-09 00:28:06 UTC
Arcosian wrote:
[quote=Abrazzar]

As for highsec beating nullsec indy this is mainly due to the ease with which people can JF supplies into deep nullsec space. I can't tell how many threads I've read with nullsec players claiming that getting supplies into null is dangerous when they can jump right on a station and dock immediately all the way through a cyno chain to anywhere in null very quickly. To me, this undermines the development of nullsec indy to begin with as it's easier/cheaper to just import everything in.


I agree with this point, there should be a module that jams cynos and a way to stop people docking at a station without the permission of the system owners. If such systems were implemented it would be fairer for all involved.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#659 - 2013-03-09 00:33:54 UTC
LazyWren wrote:
Arcosian wrote:
[quote=Abrazzar]
As for highsec beating nullsec indy this is mainly due to the ease with which people can JF supplies into deep nullsec space. I can't tell how many threads I've read with nullsec players claiming that getting supplies into null is dangerous when they can jump right on a station and dock immediately all the way through a cyno chain to anywhere in null very quickly. To me, this undermines the development of nullsec indy to begin with as it's easier/cheaper to just import everything in.

I agree with this point, there should be a module that jams cynos and a way to stop people docking at a station without the permission of the system owners. If such systems were implemented it would be fairer for all involved.

Funny you mention that...

Let's just make it impossible to bring anything in. At all. 100% mine minerals in null/low and build it there.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#660 - 2013-03-09 00:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kane Alvo wrote:
Yeah, odd that I understand the very fundamentals and these experienced players don't. Odd indeed.
It would be odd if it were true, which it obviously isn't as shown by your insistence that people should do things the game literally doesn't allow.

Quote:
Personally, I'm all for giving null sec exactly what they want: complete autonomy.
So in other words, not only do you not want to give null what they're asking for — you don't even know what it is.

Quote:
Are you really going to try to make the point that it's difficult to build an empire, when you used Goons as an example just one sentence earlier?
Since not even they have been able to do it during all that time, yes. They're an excellent example. They, unlike you, have figured out what can and cannot be done within the scope of the existing mechanics. They, unlike you, understand those mechanics. They, like everyone else (except you), have realised that free, infinite, easy and safe trumps everything null could possibly offer given the current mechanics and the massive limitations they impose on player activities.