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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Poetic Stanziel + terrible ideas on war decs

Author
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#1 - 2013-03-08 14:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/03/wardecs-be-broken.html

I think having the ability to pay concord to get out of wars is a silly idea, as is limiting wars based on corporation size.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#2 - 2013-03-08 14:25:42 UTC
It is also strange that he does not even mention an actual problem with the war dec mechanics - i.e. the complete lack of downside to corp hopping and reforming to evade wars with virtually no cost or downsides at all.
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#3 - 2013-03-08 15:30:01 UTC
I think paying to get out of wars is fine actually, especially if the defenders have to choose between paying a smaller fee to the wardeccers directly and trusting them to cancel the war, vs paying a much larger fee to concorde and guaranteeing respite for awhile. However I think if you pay concorde, the aggressors should get some compensation for it. There would need to be some way to put the brakes on the aggressors reforming and wardeccing again though.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#4 - 2013-03-08 16:38:15 UTC
Any mechanic will be abused by alts. War decs are necessary to take down high sec POS. Otherwise, the "entrenched" players will forever have yet another advantage over younger characters (like the original T2 BPOs).

Really, a flat fee is fair to all, and it should be on a corporation by corporation basis since corporations are the foundation entity in Eve.

Alliances should be player constructs used to make cooperation between corporations easier. CONCORD should not care about whether or not a corporation is in an alliance.

Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#5 - 2013-03-08 16:52:38 UTC
1. Make all wardecs free
2. Make all wardecs mutual
3. Delete concord

There should only be two types of player, those that are shooting and those that are being shot at.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-03-08 23:14:35 UTC
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
1. Make all wardecs free
2. Make all wardecs mutual
3. Delete concord

There should only be two types of player, those that are shooting and those that are being shot at.


No.

By that statement, you're making all of Eve how you wanna play. I'm OK with letting the carebears carebear, the gankers gank, and the 0.0 dwellers do their uber large fleets. I'm just gonna keep playing how I wanna play and only force that on people who come at me (bro).

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#7 - 2013-03-08 23:38:05 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
1. Make all wardecs free
2. Make all wardecs mutual
3. Delete concord

There should only be two types of player, those that are shooting and those that are being shot at.


No.

By that statement, you're making all of Eve how you wanna play. I'm OK with letting the carebears carebear, the gankers gank, and the 0.0 dwellers do their uber large fleets. I'm just gonna keep playing how I wanna play and only force that on people who come at me (bro).


Well evidently, because I care so much about what's going on in highsec and the future of carebearing i'm going to proceed to write a multiparagraph troll of your troll of my troll in the hope that we can establish an infinite recursion of trolls and maybe go cuddle under a bridge or something.

You see if we let highsecbears and nullbears have their way no one would ever die, the game would just be an upward isk spiral as farmers farm the living **** out of every resource in the game with literally no risk because every game mechanic used to kill them has been replaced with a dialog box reminding you to play nicely because "these farmingbears build your ships".

Sounds a bit dystopian? It happened in Ultima Online, they released an entire other world without non-consensual PvP, the farmers kept farming in complete peace and it basically killed the game. If you don't think the constant whine about game mechanics that make their aimless hoarding slightly more risky is a problem, you should.


Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-03-08 23:56:21 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
*snip* the gankers gank *snip*


Yeah. I never said to make hi sec/null safer. Eve isn't about constant PvP.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#9 - 2013-03-09 00:05:31 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Garr Earthbender wrote:
*snip* the gankers gank *snip*


Yeah. I never said to make hi sec/null safer. Eve isn't about constant PvP.


And you don't see how the constant flow of tears from bears about game mechanics that allow ganking is dangerous?

We've already seen a nerf to insurance in an attempt to nerf suicide ganking because highsec mummy's boys cried so hard about it. Mechanically speaking, wardecs are the only other sensible way to have a proper fight in highsec. If we let highsecbears whine until CCP changes that to their advantage aswell we'll be left with dueling which is just a lame idea that should go away and die in a ditch to sad violin music.

Mra Rednu
Vanishing Point.
#10 - 2013-03-11 09:35:21 UTC
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Garr Earthbender wrote:
*snip* the gankers gank *snip*


Yeah. I never said to make hi sec/null safer. Eve isn't about constant PvP.


And you don't see how the constant flow of tears from bears about game mechanics that allow ganking is dangerous?

We've already seen a nerf to insurance in an attempt to nerf suicide ganking because highsec mummy's boys cried so hard about it. Mechanically speaking, wardecs are the only other sensible way to have a proper fight in highsec. If we let highsecbears whine until CCP changes that to their advantage aswell we'll be left with dueling which is just a lame idea that should go away and die in a ditch to sad violin music.



You say nerf a lot without mentioning the buff's.

HS wars in general are a mechanic beyond repair, it can never be totally fixed without breaking apart the whole game and starting again.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-03-11 10:05:55 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
It is also strange that he does not even mention an actual problem with the war dec mechanics - i.e. the complete lack of downside to corp hopping and reforming to evade wars with virtually no cost or downsides at all.

to be honest there is more problems with wardecs:
- complete lack of downside for deccer (outside of war payment which is not considerable thing in Eve)
- complete lack of reasons to fight for defenders
- ...

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-03-11 10:39:17 UTC
The issue, I think, comes from some of the fundamental aspects of EVE's game mechanics. Outside of starbases systems, there's literally nothing solid in hi-sec that you can actually lose, and disregarding customs offices, the same applies to low-sec. You can certainly lose profit opportunities if you're denied the ability to mine or mission in these places, but if you're unlikely to soundly beat those fighting you with little monetary loss, there's certainly no compelling reason not to just wait out your aggressor. A hi-sec starbase can be death-starred up to the point where the sheer number of ships and scale of co-ordinated effort it would take to get rid of it is beyond the capacity of many smaller corporations.

The problem is, with the current way in which EVE Online works, making there be a downside to staying docked up and ignoring a wardec beyond "not undocking" does push the game in a direction I would genuinely consider "pay to grief" - "hey, small industrial corporation which cannot possibly have enough PvP-competent members to defend itself from us! Either you undock straight into our guns or CONCORD fines you!" Not a comforting thought, frankly. Likewise, having a downside to declaring a wardec would allow the defender to grief in the opposite way - by staying docked and not offering a reasonable method by which the aggressor can achieve their objectives.

The entire wardec system is kind of broken and there isn't really an easy way to fix it without seriously rethinking some fundamental aspects of EVE's gameplay.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.