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Intergalactic Summit

 
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A Necessary Peace

Author
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#121 - 2013-03-08 10:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Quinzel Nikulainen
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

It should be noted that it's relatively easy for any individual pilot with a reasonable level of competence to run with a high combat efficiency, as a ship can appear on the killmails of a theoretically unlimited number of ships but can only ever be destroyed once.


Thereby it should also be noted that Corporate kill figures represent a truer representation of kill efficiency if the Corporation in question frequently fly together.

A Corporation can only claim a Killmail once for it's own records.

The Pyre Falcon Defense Cadre run with a very respectable combat history.

But you could have figured that out if you had spent 0.2 seconds doing research instead of running your mouth.

BloodBird wrote:

Can we progress beyond this bickering and get back to the topic at hand?


My previous comment aside, I agree. This isn't the venue.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#122 - 2013-03-08 10:48:11 UTC
BloodBird wrote:
Seriously people, if you are going to hold a ****-measuring competition using space-born warships and their effective K/D ratio as a metric, you must have started off with very cruel handicaps indeed.

Can we progress beyond this bickering and get back to the topic at hand?



My apologies, I shouldn't have risen to Andreus' bait.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#123 - 2013-03-08 11:18:00 UTC
Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-03-08 11:22:20 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics.

No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#125 - 2013-03-08 11:26:25 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won.



Statistics obfuscate the truth.

But if you wish to stand by them; Mixed Metaphor have a markedly lower efficiency than XV01A whilst seeming to possess a higher incidence of involvement with fleets outside of those exclusive to their own corporation.

You should take valuable advise when it's given to you and move on.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2013-03-08 11:56:27 UTC
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:
But if you wish to stand by them; Mixed Metaphor have a markedly lower efficiency than XV01A whilst seeming to possess a higher incidence of involvement with fleets outside of those exclusive to their own corporation.

You should take valuable advise when it's given to you and move on.

Who are you again, exactly?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#127 - 2013-03-08 12:24:26 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:

Needless to say, that level of competence is not consistent among either of our militias. We are both on the winning side of the win / loss efficiency scale, which means there are others out there on the losing side of that scale.


Everyone preys on the runts of the litter first, after all. Furthermore I think the chairwoman wasn't hiding behind the entirety of the STPRO when making her claims and assertions. Unlike Ixiris we do not hide behind others.

Regarding the original topic I can echo the chairwoman's sentiments. Ending this war lies almost entirely in the hands of the federation. Until then we have a job to do.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#128 - 2013-03-08 12:29:11 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

Who are you again, exactly?


Just a nobody. Fresh face. None of your concern. Which is apparently more than qualified enough to show a higher aptitude for rational discourse than some, Mr. Ixiris.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2013-03-08 12:38:16 UTC
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:
Just a nobody. Fresh face. None of your concern. Which is apparently more than qualified enough to show a higher aptitude for rational discourse than some, Mr. Ixiris.

Not with that attitude, mate.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Shiori Shaishi
Doomheim
#130 - 2013-03-08 12:46:59 UTC
Yes. Pilot Andreus is more famous than you, and your inability to understand how this lends his arguments more validity than yours is nothing short of insolence. Clearly.
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#131 - 2013-03-08 12:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aelisha
The fact that all militia-supporting naval assets have been slashed in quantity (but arguably increased in quality) at CEWPA verified 'vital arenas of combat' impresses on me the possibility that in addition to the current foisting of the majority of cost onto capsuleer finances, the Big Four are entering into a sustained war economy, one which minimizes their morale, financial and media profile in terms of loss of human life and materiel.

Taking this into account, before the consideration of 'possible exit strategies' of the situation, seems to show that this is increasingly a war for capsuleers, waged by capsuleers and perpetuated by our command of literally infinite wealth (as there are always other wealth generation methods to fall back on, and the war itself is not a faucet). Considering that it increases the personal wealth and purchasing power (through wealth redistribution) of even relatively young, unskilled pilots, the war will continue to be attractive and economically viable.

With the entry of a new breed of immortal killing machine to the field of planetary warfare, and their current authorized segregation into the war zone, with the exception of high profile contracts on the part of governmental bodies, it seems that the Empyrean Pressure Valve that these conflicts double as will find new purpose and thus self-perpetuate. After all, it seems that lucrative land ownership in nullsec and the incentive-laden 'free-form contract of service' that is a stint of milita service are all ways to attempt to get immortals keen to carve their name into the nearest celestial object (whatever the reason why) out of core territories.

Simply put, a stabilisation mechanism like the CEWPA conflict is just too convenient a tool for the CONCORD signatories, including my beloved State, to ignore. While experimental, unpredictable and immortal entities exist as an extreme minority in the cluster-wide population, this method of courting support without having to take direct responsibility for the less savory consequences of individuals like us who have come to view death as an inconvenience at worst, and a method of travel at the best of times, will remain highly attractive.

Regardless of the logical conclusions and the compelling argument the Luminaire demilitarization proposal posits (with interesting ramifications concerning the 'Intaki homeworld problem' perpetuated by this war), the very fact that we as individuals are willing to serve our nations, but also use that service as one of the most potent wealth distribution methods in our society, will encourage us to make the system seem like it is working as intended. Not to win one way or another, but to preserve sovereign, empire forces from the worst ravages of interstellar conflict and segregate unbound capsuleers and other immortal military assets from the realities of political responsibility and national economies.

Call me a skeptic, but it is my opinion that we capsuleers, regardless of capability, loyalty and avenue of input to this system, are the regenerative meat shield both preventing peace and all out war in parallel. Figuring this out (or making the bald assertion thereof in this case) isn't big, clever or an 'out' from the system - at least not until CONCORD changes dramatically or there are mass resignations from their charter. It is mostly a slightly depressing realization of the state of affairs and a much more effective way of realizing that the only victory to be had is to play the long game - fight, mine, trade and collaborate economically - because when the vacuum-seal against our influence in direct national military and political affairs finally pops, the degree to which you gamed the systems that came before will dictate the head start you get when you figure out how to play the next system thrown at you.

Practical makes Perfect.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#132 - 2013-03-08 19:10:12 UTC
Very good points, Aelisha. I'm glad to see that the deeper implications behind the argument I've been repeating over and over in this thread aren't lost on the entire Capsuleer population. It is expected that our kind are more interested in exhibiting their bravado than focusing on a delicate subject like territorial negotiations, but this has gotten almost ridiculous.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
My apologies, I shouldn't have risen to Andreus' bait.


Honestly, Pieter, you seem just as interested in chumming the waters with red meat as Andreus if not more. I could care less about what heroic feats you and the other pilots in your Alliance think yourselves capable of in a war of total destruction between our peoples. Although I do care about the progress of the current war between the State Protectorate and the Federal Defense Union, that subject is very clearly outside the core issue of this thread. I said as much to Pilot Ixiris when I labeled his first post on the subject of Black Rise a "provocation."

I didn't start this topic as yet another opportunity for the same posturing. I started this topic because the instability in the Caldari State and the escalation of Nationalist rhetoric in the Federation threaten to escalate the situation in Luminaire to the point of crisis. As of now, this crisis can be averted, but it will take action on our part. Settling the status of Caldari Prime is my only aim here.

To those Caldari who believe this proxy war suits their interests, I say brilliant. Honestly, it suits my finances just as well as yours. Let it continue, my proposal has no ambition to stop it. Just remember this, the first world to burn if we fail to prevent this crisis will be Caldari Prime. If that day comes, you will wail and gnash your teeth and blame the Federation as you always do. Remember also that this was an opportunity.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#133 - 2013-03-08 22:05:33 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics.

Then I am a great fool indeed, wars are won in the wallet.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-03-09 03:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Militia warfare is meaningless from my standpoint. The Militias fight over petty low security systems that are overrun with pirates and various other vagabonds anyway. The planets and resources may prove valuable, but they cannot be harvested without the major threat of criminals and other militias in the area.

Essentially, these militias are fighting over scraps of food, discarding pieces that serve no practical use to each nation in the grand scheme of things. Regardless of what the Militia's do, the Empires will be able to go about their business with virtually no changes to their routine. The only thing that might concern them is which group will be waiting at the low security gates today.


James Syagrius wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics.

Then I am a great fool indeed, wars are won in the wallet.


Which is why the Amarr Empire, who are so wealthy they can afford to decorate their ships with gold, managed to lose to ragtag groups of penniless slaves.

All war come down to at the end of the day are the people who come up with the strategies, and the people that execute the strategies. Money, population, influence and a whole number of statistics can play a major role and can help achieve success, but they don't win the wars.

Appoint a toddler as general, give him an army of puppies and write him a check for an unlimited amount of ISK. Things will go pretty badly for him.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Vihtor Heishi
Doomheim
#135 - 2013-03-09 03:32:02 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics.

No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won.


Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information.

The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor.

Seifuku suru ishi wa shōri e no saisho no kagi to narimasu.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#136 - 2013-03-09 03:48:12 UTC
Vihtor Heishi wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics.

No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won.


Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information.

The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor.


Your professors at the Academy must be so proud.
Vihtor Heishi
Doomheim
#137 - 2013-03-09 04:09:01 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Vihtor Heishi wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics.

No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won.


Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information.

The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor.


Your professors at the Academy must be so proud.


Top of my class. Does it show?

Do you actually have anything to contribute or are you just being a child?

Seifuku suru ishi wa shōri e no saisho no kagi to narimasu.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#138 - 2013-03-09 05:11:59 UTC
Vihtor Heishi wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics.

No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won.


Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information.

The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor.

Sir,

Statistics are only misleading if one does not know how to read statistics.

The eye's mistake is no fault of the pen.
Vihtor Heishi
Doomheim
#139 - 2013-03-09 05:28:28 UTC
Scherezad wrote:

Sir,

Statistics are only misleading if one does not know how to read statistics.

The eye's mistake is no fault of the pen.


Very true, but the fault can sometimes lie with the one using the pen.

Seifuku suru ishi wa shōri e no saisho no kagi to narimasu.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#140 - 2013-03-09 06:04:50 UTC
Miss Vero, I wasn't the one who started bragging about who was winning the war in Black Rise. Still... I did bite when that was waved under my nose - and thus I apologised.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.