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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#461 - 2013-03-08 02:41:26 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Look at moon mining as you correctly say a lot of wealth in few hands rather than the wealth being there for all to have.


EvE is a sandbox (sadly with an hi sec, should get rid of that) with a very high degree of freedom given to the players.


Assuming what you say is right:
If those players are stupid enough to work like dummies for the "wealth in few hands", what's wrong with it?
I mean, there's no hardcoded rule or law forcing people to obey and enslave for others to get rich.
Just rebel, and kick those "few hands" and then spread the wealth between everybody.


But knowing what you say is not that right:
Alliance members let the "few hands" decide who gets what and to spend that wealth in ships replacements and whatsnot.
Do the ship replacements, free skill books etc. count as "being there for all to have"? You can bet they do.

Do those few hands also administer the whole alliance, spend time and ability in diplomacy, organize with the corp officers and FCs? Yes they do.

Do they organize alliance logistics, buy sov structures, setup bridges? Yes they do.

So.... tell it again... are those few hands hoarding the wealth or are you forgetting about the LOT of stuff everyone in the alliance benefits from and thus the wealth is shared?

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Frying Doom
#462 - 2013-03-08 02:43:30 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:



But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.


The biggest issue in null sec without question is the people in null sec. They made their bed. They can lie on it now.

Yeah that is a great philosophy.

What about all the people that would like to move to Null, Had nothing to do with the current set up of Sov Null and currently will not go there as it is completely unprofitable?


Meh.

Nothing will change in sov space until those in power have a change in philosophy and attitude towards the rest of Eve. It was in their power to turn their sections of SOV space into trade and industrial friendly areas and instead everyone of them to a T rubbed their hands together in greed and power and locked out everyone else while they watched their wallets fill with isk from the moon goo spigots.

They were so obsessed with their greed and status quo they blued up almost 70% of SOV space. Now everyone else is supposed to bow down and bend over as they want to take from High Sec and force High Sec folks to want to play in an environment like that?

Im sure all we will hear is more blame on mechanics and no admittance of blame on themselves, which is to be expected (consider the source) but folks are wise to them and the real cause of their problems as this point so that everytime they cry on the forums folks just roll their eyes.

No thanks. Honestly, the last people anyone should be listening to about making EVE "better" are the clowns that turned null sov into what it is today.


The ability for a game mechanics to change Null into the Utopia you speak are exactly zero, unless they just turn it into Hi-sec.

But now in hi-sec people are complaining about war decs and how they need to be consensual, so not even turning into Null would work. Even a usage based Sov system will not make Sov areas friendly to out siders.

But your hatred of Null sov alliances in the end means nothing, as you can blame Sov leadership as much as you like but they are using their might to protect their membership and their is no reason that membership should not be able to have a reasonable industry set up around them.

And to top it all off it does not help the balance of game towards risk/reward. Nor does it help people who might want to move to more dangerous areas, even though they are taking higher risks to make it a worth while option.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#463 - 2013-03-08 02:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Look at moon mining as you correctly say a lot of wealth in few hands rather than the wealth being there for all to have.


EvE is a sandbox (sadly with an hi sec, should get rid of that) with a very high degree of freedom given to the players.


Assuming what you say is right:
If those players are stupid enough to work like dummies for the "wealth in few hands", what's wrong with it?
I mean, there's no hardcoded rule or law forcing people to obey and enslave for others to get rich.
Just rebel, and kick those "few hands" and then spread the wealth between everybody.


But knowing what you say is not that right:
Alliance members let the "few hands" decide who gets what and to spend that wealth in ships replacements and whatsnot.
Do the ship replacements, free skill books etc. count as "being there for all to have"? You can bet they do.

Do those few hands also administer the whole alliance, spend time and ability in diplomacy, organize with the corp officers and FCs? Yes they do.

Do they organize alliance logistics, buy sov structures, setup bridges? Yes they do.

So.... tell it again... are those few hands hoarding the wealth or are you forgetting about the LOT of stuff everyone in the alliance benefits from and thus the wealth is shared?



"Do the ship replacements, free skill books etc. count as "being there for all to have"? You can bet they do."
So you are claiming that if I flew into Null today I could ask Goonswarm for a copy of Capital ships? I know where they would tell me to stick that.

You say alliance member this and alliance member that.

What about the people who live in Null or might want to live in Null but are not members of these alliances?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#464 - 2013-03-08 02:49:44 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

But as to how CCP structured EvE 10 years ago is a lot different to what it is now. By the look of it all of the regions were meant to be reliant on the others but due to additions made over the years this is no longer true. Null is reliant on Hi-sec but Hi-sec is only reliant on Null for Moon Goo and a few BPOs and officer mods.


If null sec got the same refineries and enough industry slots it'd be self reliant. But no, that's not enough, we have also to nerf the rest of the game as cherry on the cake so that null sec people can come flood Jita and outcompete hi sec industrialist on their own products. Roll


Frying Doom wrote:

And the Moon Goo does not help the average player as to the profitability of Null Sec or for that matter the majority of Alliances.


The moon goo ends in ship replacement programs, structures, logistics and other 50 destinations that all end up benefitting everyone in that alliance. It's just not straight ISK handed in your hands.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#465 - 2013-03-08 02:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Frying Doom wrote:
So you are claiming that if I flew into Null today I could ask Goonswarm for a copy of Capital ships? I know where they would tell me to stick that.


If they tell you that, it means you did nothing worth enough to deserve 1 skill book. I am quite sure their officers are ready to shell the billions to assist those they consider deserving that.


Frying Doom wrote:

You say alliance member this and alliance member that.

What about the people who live in Null or might want to live in Null but are not members of these alliances?


You do like we did: harden up, perform weekly corp / alliance ops to farm ISK / minerals and then go conquer moons to stop performing the boring weekly corp / alliance ops.

We had full fitted capital ships replacement program, even before owning our first moon.

Meh, is it just me or the current players are way softened compared to the past?

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#466 - 2013-03-08 03:03:34 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Sariah Kion wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

No, what disgusts me are your bold faced lies and willful intellectual dishonesty.
You're a ******* troll and you know it.


You're so butt hurt. The more angry and vitriolic a person gets, the closer to the truth you are hitting with your opinions and comments.

Ill take your anger and disrespectful comments as a sign that Im right on target pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements and opinions on this issue.


There's a difference between being butthurt and being extremely frustrated at such a profound display of ignorance, idiocy, and trolling.

It's pretty telling that you're posting all this with an NPC corp alt. Pretty cowardly move on your part.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frying Doom
#467 - 2013-03-08 03:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
So you are claiming that if I flew into Null today I could ask Goonswarm for a copy of Capital ships? I know where they would tell me to stick that.


If they tell you that, it means you did nothing worth enough to deserve 1 skill book. I am quite sure their officers are ready to shell the billions to assist those they consider deserving that.

Well durr of course I haven't done anything for Goonswarm to get that. But your argument was that the skill books are available to all, if I fly into Null I am a part of that all. So no they are not available to all.


Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

You say alliance member this and alliance member that.

What about the people who live in Null or might want to live in Null but are not members of these alliances?


You do like we did: harden up, perform weekly corp / alliance ops to farm ISK / minerals and then go conquer moons to stop performing the boring weekly corp / alliance ops.

We had full fitted capital ships replacement program, even before owning our first moon.

Meh, is it just me or the current players are way softened compared to the past?

So your argument here is I need to join a medium or large corp for me to be able to profit from Null and that no people in small corps or solo should be able to live in Null profitably.

Is it my imagination or were people who used to play EvE more intelligent?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#468 - 2013-03-08 03:21:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Cyberdyne
Frying Doom wrote:
Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent?


*snip* Per Forum Rule 4, Personal attacks are prohibited. Please adhere to forum rules. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#469 - 2013-03-08 03:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Cyberdyne
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent?

*snip* Per Forum Rule 4, Personal attacks are prohibited. Please adhere to forum rules. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne


It looks like I own SOV space in your head at this point.

You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay......

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Frying Doom
#470 - 2013-03-08 03:45:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Cyberdyne
Sariah Kion wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent?

*snip* Per Forum Rule 4, Personal attacks are prohibited. Please adhere to forum rules. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne


It looks like own SOV space in your head at this point.

You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay......




Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

-- Albert Einstein

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#471 - 2013-03-08 03:59:20 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent?

*snip* Per Forum Rule 4, Personal attacks are prohibited. Please adhere to forum rules. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne


It looks like own SOV space in your head at this point.

You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay......




Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

-- Albert Einstein

Also Vaas.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#472 - 2013-03-08 04:25:23 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Is it my imagination or where people who used to play EvE more intelligent?

*snip* Per Forum Rule 4, Personal attacks are prohibited. Please adhere to forum rules. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne


It looks like I own SOV space in your head at this point.

You stay classy and keep sticking to the points being debated mkay......

Maybe you should own sov, then you'd actually understand what the problem was.
Of course, being all talk, you'll never actually manage to take any space. Probably not even an unclaimed system in the middle of nowhere in Oasa or something.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#473 - 2013-03-08 04:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Tippia wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.

And they already are, by a mile.
…apart from the whole “being rewarded” part, since null industry is all punishment.

Quote:
Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists
…if you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?).

Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.


Nullsec already has the ability to run production to any scale that their infrastructure will support. They only need invest in, build and protect the facilities. It is "their" space. They went out there to own it. They just don't want to pay the bill for it.

It is a non-existent problem.

Don't ban me, bro!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#474 - 2013-03-08 04:34:58 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
to any scale that their infrastructure will support.

Yeah, that's kind of the problem.
An entire region of fully upgraded nullsec infrastructure would still be inferior to just a handful of systems in highsec.
So the scale of production is really quite limited, especially compared to the general size of alliances that hold that amount of space.

So of course we don't want to pay the bill for it. It's not worth paying it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frying Doom
#475 - 2013-03-08 04:39:02 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
to any scale that their infrastructure will support.

Yeah, that's kind of the problem.
An entire region of fully upgraded nullsec infrastructure would still be inferior to just a handful of systems in highsec.
So the scale of production is really quite limited, especially compared to the general size of alliances that hold that amount of space.

So of course we don't want to pay the bill for it. It's not worth paying it.

And why would you atm as it is cheaper safer and easier to do in Hi-sec.

Massively cheaper.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#476 - 2013-03-08 04:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Mr Kidd wrote:
They only need invest in, build and protect the facilities. It is "their" space. They went out there to own it. They just don't want to pay the bill for it.

It is a non-existent problem.

Let me ask you honestly:
If killing sleeper rats netted you about 10 mil/hour on average in a C5 or C6 with an optimal fleet comp and tactics, but still required the same fleet compositions, effort, risk, infrastructure, etc. to kill them, would you begrudge wormhole dwellers for going to highsec to run lvl 4 missions or incursions to get a reasonable income? Would you consider their requests to buff w-space PVE reasonable? Or would you tell them to HTFU and get a bigger and more expensive fleet composition?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#477 - 2013-03-08 04:49:23 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
They only need invest in, build and protect the facilities. It is "their" space. They went out there to own it. They just don't want to pay the bill for it.

It is a non-existent problem.

Let me ask you honestly:
If killing sleeper rats netted you about 10 mil/hour on average in a C5 or C6 with an optimal fleet comp and tactics, but still required the same fleet compositions, effort, risk, infrastructure, etc. to kill them, would you begrudge wormhole dwellers for going to highsec to run lvl 4 missions or incursions to get a reasonable income? Would you consider their requests to buff w-space PVE reasonable? Or would you tell them to HTFU and get a bigger and more expensive fleet composition?

HTFU, Goback2highsec

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#478 - 2013-03-08 04:50:36 UTC
inb4 someone completely misses the point of analogy.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#479 - 2013-03-08 04:52:40 UTC
Who needs analogies when in highsec you have delicious realities:

safety and rewards

and other banalities

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Goldnut Sachs
#480 - 2013-03-08 04:54:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
inb4 someone completely misses the point of analogy.

inb4 nullbear 100% safety in the big blue donut, we're so cool in the WHs.