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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#441 - 2013-03-08 01:18:49 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:

The truth disgusts you.

Null Sec doesnt need to be run the way its run. The players choose to run it like it is. They chose long ago to not encourage neutral trading and industry inside their pieces of SOV space and instead turned them into their personal care bear havens mining their isk spigots.

Yes, it is disgusting. Its disgusting that a group of people willfully ignore their own part in the problems they have.


Providence must really be the holy land for nullsec industry, I mean there's so many outposts there and their owners let anyone dock in them!
Umega
Solis Mensa
#442 - 2013-03-08 01:21:49 UTC
Isn't this a pointless arguement until null gets some other changes?

I don't see a point of debating whether null needs industry improvements when there are more explosions happening in highsec rookie systems than null bottleneck systems.

I honestly wouldn't be the least bit surprised if someone told me that w-space has more explosions than null.. and an industrial backbone is more taunting there!

Quoting how many people there are in a certain region is kinda irrelevent.. that's only a portion of the demand. Boomboom is going to fuel more demand.. even if the population is significantly lower. If 'Jack' buys a ship and it lasts 1-2 years.. Jack don't need to buy another soon. If Jack buys a ship and it lasts 1-2 weeks.. Jack needs 20-30 times more of that ship per year.

Till null is made more 'explosive'.. what's the point of making null factories >/=? Sounds like a waste of CCP resources needed elsewhere to fix other, more glaring problems.. that in turn make this whole debate actually suitable to have. In all truth.. majority of alliance 'war-chests' are more than well off.. a change wouldn't mean **** till a lot more boomboom digs into existing stockpiles.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Frying Doom
#443 - 2013-03-08 01:23:21 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…if you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?.
Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.


If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears.

So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#444 - 2013-03-08 01:31:14 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…if you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?.
Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.

If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears.

So let me get this straight it is your belief that players who choose to be in more dangerous areas with less/no NPC facilities should be punished for their choice?

Like they say, a dog returns to its ... well, you know.

We should be happy in highsec, a glorious utopia. One united security region under CONCORD.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#445 - 2013-03-08 01:33:15 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the
…mechanics, which is why they're slated for a change and why highseccers are so desperate to spam threads such as this to paint the picture that severe game imbalances are somehow a good thing that must be preserved at all costs.

Well, then we can have the discussion about industry again after the sovereignty mechanics change, because right now it would be a waste of developer time.

Not at all as their is more to Null than just Sov space and the ability of Player owned structures to out preform NPC ones should not be prevented just because some people seem to be using the argument similar in logic to why the yield of a procurer should be equal to the yield oh a hulk.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#446 - 2013-03-08 01:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelique Duchemin
He did raise an interesting point.

Highsec is heavily regulated while nullsec has complete freedom

We where free to turn nullsec into whatever we wanted. We could have made it safer than high sec. Made use of the resources, set up efficient and safe trading routes and trade-hubs that would rival jita due to it's location near all important resources.

Instead we turned nullsec into Somalia. It may have the diamonds. But it's still the crime infested shithole that we made it into.

Ayn Rand would be disappointed.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#447 - 2013-03-08 01:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Cyberdyne
Sariah Kion wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.


There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them.

And you call Malcanis intellectually dishonest.
You disgust me.


The truth disgusts you.

Null Sec doesnt need to be run the way its run. The players choose to run it like it is. They chose long ago to not encourage neutral trading and industry inside their pieces of SOV space and instead turned them into their personal care bear havens mining their isk spigots.

Yes, it is disgusting. Its disgusting that a group of people willfully ignore their own part in the problems they have.


*snip* Per Forum Rule 22, posts must remain civil and constructive. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#448 - 2013-03-08 01:43:15 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
He did raise an interesting point.

Highsec is heavily regulated while nullsec has complete freedom

We where free to turn nullsec into whatever we wanted. We could have made it safer than high sec. Made use of the resources, set up efficient and safe trading routes and trade-hubs that would rival jita due to it's location near all important resources.

Instead we turned nullsec into Somalia. It may have the diamonds. But it's still the crime infested shithole that we made it into.

Ayn Rand would be disappointed.

Game mechanics are why it is the way it is.
We can't bypass the game mechanics as much as you'd like to think so.
Please take time to actually learn the issues before you comment.

Edited because it was WAAAAAAAAAY too harsh. Sorry about that.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#449 - 2013-03-08 01:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Xearal
Being a modest industrialist myself, and one who isn't risk averse, I am sad that null is in the state it is in now.

I've done the math, my spreadsheets tell me that convenience, production costs, sale margins, expected movement of goods..
they all say the same thing.. doing null sec industry that isn't massive, aka supercap production, or mega assembly of large amounts of things, delivering to a specific alliance, isn't worth it.

You have too small a market, too much extra costs of logistics involved, and on top of that, the risks of NPC space or Sov space, where an invasion could crush your entire operation, even the threat of one could shut you down.

Add to that the investment costs that are currently required to get even some basic things set up and developed, it's simply not profitable compared to doing your industry in High sec, where you have easy access to minerals and other goodies, tons of manufacturing slots, and a large ready market to sell your products to.

The day that it becomes interesting to actually go out there, stake a small claim, hell even rent a single moon to put down a POS from some big alliance, will be the day I pack my bags and say high sec farewell. Already I live in low/null when I'm not doing production runs or hauling materials or product.

Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#450 - 2013-03-08 01:59:20 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
He did raise an interesting point.

Highsec is heavily regulated while nullsec has complete freedom

We where free to turn nullsec into whatever we wanted. We could have made it safer than high sec. Made use of the resources, set up efficient and safe trading routes and trade-hubs that would rival jita due to it's location near all important resources.

Instead we turned nullsec into Somalia. It may have the diamonds. But it's still the crime infested shithole that we made it into.

Ayn Rand would be disappointed.

Game mechanics are why it is the way it is.
We can't bypass the game mechanics as much as you'd like to think so.
Please take time to actually learn the issues before you comment.

Edited because it was WAAAAAAAAAY too harsh. Sorry about that.


What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?

Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#451 - 2013-03-08 02:02:49 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?

Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too.

So are we shooting each other, or are we not shooting each other?
Highseccers get pissed when we shoot at each other, and they get pissed when we don't shoot at each other.
Clearly we're the problem.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frying Doom
#452 - 2013-03-08 02:06:03 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
He did raise an interesting point.

Highsec is heavily regulated while nullsec has complete freedom

We where free to turn nullsec into whatever we wanted. We could have made it safer than high sec. Made use of the resources, set up efficient and safe trading routes and trade-hubs that would rival jita due to it's location near all important resources.

Instead we turned nullsec into Somalia. It may have the diamonds. But it's still the crime infested shithole that we made it into.

Ayn Rand would be disappointed.

Game mechanics are why it is the way it is.
We can't bypass the game mechanics as much as you'd like to think so.
Please take time to actually learn the issues before you comment.

Edited because it was WAAAAAAAAAY too harsh. Sorry about that.


What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?

Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too.

That is not a game mechanic, that is human biology.

We will all try be rewarded for our activities in some way or another.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#453 - 2013-03-08 02:09:31 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?

Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too.

So are we shooting each other, or are we not shooting each other?
Highseccers get pissed when we shoot at each other, and they get pissed when we don't shoot at each other.
Clearly we're the problem.



No the problem is that the nullsec population and their leadership look at Jita and demand the same from CCP. They want a nullsec Jita.

For the industry to move to nullsec. As if it was taken from them. And they believe that the solution is to make high sec less safe. That the market and industry will spread out more then.


But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#454 - 2013-03-08 02:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Cyberdyne
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

*snip* Per Forum Rule 22, posts must remain civil and constructive. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne


*snip* Per Forum Rule 22, posts must remain civil and constructive. Thanks. - ISD Cyberdyne

Ill take your anger and disrespectful comments as a sign that Im right on target pointing out the hypocrisy in your statements and opinions on this issue.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Frying Doom
#455 - 2013-03-08 02:18:38 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
What game mechanic forces the entire population of nullsec to cannibalize each other and everything else that comes into it?

Like a big amorphous fungal growth it consumes everything that is not protected by Concord and some things that are too.

So are we shooting each other, or are we not shooting each other?
Highseccers get pissed when we shoot at each other, and they get pissed when we don't shoot at each other.
Clearly we're the problem.



No the problem is that the nullsec population and their leadership look at Jita and demand the same from CCP. They want a nullsec Jita.

For the industry to move to nullsec. As if it was taken from them. And they believe that the solution is to make high sec less safe. That the market and industry will spread out more then.


But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.

For easy just let me say.

If Null was more profitable I would move there

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#456 - 2013-03-08 02:19:14 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:



But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.


The biggest issue in null sec without question is the people in null sec. They made their bed. They can lie on it now.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Frying Doom
#457 - 2013-03-08 02:24:33 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:



But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.


The biggest issue in null sec without question is the people in null sec. They made their bed. They can lie on it now.

Yeah that is a great philosophy.

What about all the people that would like to move to Null, Had nothing to do with the current set up of Sov Null and currently will not go there as it is completely unprofitable?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#458 - 2013-03-08 02:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Zhade Lezte wrote:

He said cheaper and easier, not either cheaper or easier.

The rest of your rant is based on your preconceptions of the game, and arguing them is pointless because none of us can actually bring up relevant and impartial statistics in the manner. As it stands there's just a lot of us in this thread who would like to do industry in nullsec but highsec is just so much better. Count me in that "insignificant minority".

PS: training my third industry alt. Like the other two, he will build in highsec in the current game environment.


Mine was certainly not meant to be a rant, maybe you should decolor your glasses.

As for "would like to.... but...", it's a fallacy.

If you REALLY wanted to build in null sec you would, exactly like my old corp used to do.

Now restate it honestly as "we would like to do industry in null sec but it's more convenient in hi sec" (and you have to wait in queue for less time).

This sounds better and indeed hi sec is more convenient and indeed null sec should be buffed a lot, but don't make it show like you are poor helpless victims of a system you chose to embark into.

Apparently, like it or not, back at the dawn of the game, CCP decided that going in null sec meant to live an harsh life, that EvE would be based on a center-periphery model and that certain things would suck when done in null sec.

Now you go there knowing how it is but then not only come back and demand CCP to change their universe to suit your desires but also to adversely affect everybody else, including low sec (they too have zillions of stations and high refine stations).
CCP could and probably should help you in an act of kindess they have not done for anyone else before CFC / HBC, sure.
But don't pretend you can also pee on everybody else's cheerios with them happily accept it at once.

Even if you weren't an insignificant minority (no stats to know), you are still in an organization that accepted going there knowing the bonuses and the shortcomings years in advance.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#459 - 2013-03-08 02:33:30 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:



But nullsec is coarse. To such a extreme degree that efficient industry is impossible. Not because CCP keeps the industry from them but because they scare away the industry.


The biggest issue in null sec without question is the people in null sec. They made their bed. They can lie on it now.

Yeah that is a great philosophy.

What about all the people that would like to move to Null, Had nothing to do with the current set up of Sov Null and currently will not go there as it is completely unprofitable?


Meh.

Nothing will change in sov space until those in power have a change in philosophy and attitude towards the rest of Eve. It was in their power to turn their sections of SOV space into trade and industrial friendly areas and instead everyone of them to a T rubbed their hands together in greed and power and locked out everyone else while they watched their wallets fill with isk from the moon goo spigots.

They were so obsessed with their greed and status quo they blued up almost 70% of SOV space. Now everyone else is supposed to bow down and bend over as they want to take from High Sec and force High Sec folks to want to play in an environment like that?

Im sure all we will hear is more blame on mechanics and no admittance of blame on themselves, which is to be expected (consider the source) but folks are wise to them and the real cause of their problems as this point so that everytime they cry on the forums folks just roll their eyes.

No thanks. Honestly, the last people anyone should be listening to about making EVE "better" are the clowns that turned null sov into what it is today.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Frying Doom
#460 - 2013-03-08 02:35:55 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Now restate it honestly as "we would like to do industry in null sec but it's more convenient in hi sec".

This sounds better and indeed hi sec is more convenient and indeed null sec should be buffed a lot, but don't make it show like you are poor helpless victims of a system you chose to embark into.

Apparently, like it or not, back at the dawn of the game, CCP decided that going in null sec meant to live an harsh life, that EvE would be based on a center-periphery model and that certain things would suck when done in null sec.

From my point of view I would like to do Industry in Null but it is not profitable to do so.

But as to how CCP structured EvE 10 years ago is a lot different to what it is now. By the look of it all of the regions were meant to be reliant on the others but due to additions made over the years this is no longer true. Null is reliant on Hi-sec but Hi-sec is only reliant on Null for Moon Goo and a few BPOs and officer mods.

And the Moon Goo does not help the average player as to the profitability of Null Sec or for that matter the majority of Alliances.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!