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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#421 - 2013-03-07 23:01:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Then don't build in nullsec, there's nothing stopping you from using highsec industry.
So you're all for removing all income from highsec, then?
There's nothing stopping people from making money in low and null…

In fact, you're all for removing industry from highsec, I preseume, since there's nothing stopping people from doing that in low and null?


Straw man, dont you read what you link?

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#422 - 2013-03-07 23:02:34 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Straw man
Nope.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#423 - 2013-03-07 23:05:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Straw man
Nope.


Big smile

Sure it is.

It sucks when you try to call someone out for something then decide to use said tactic multiple times in later postings. Live by the sword die by the sword and all that funky music...

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#424 - 2013-03-07 23:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzy Warstl
The simple fact is that there aren't enough people in sovereign nullsec to support highsec levels of industry.

Manufacturing slots lie fallow because there isn't sufficient demand for them, for numerous reasons mostly to do with nobody wanting to feed potential opposition.

If there were highsec levels of industry slots in nullsec, it would all lie fallow because the politics that make the current system what it is wouldn't have changed.

Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#425 - 2013-03-07 23:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sariah Kion wrote:
Sure it is.
Nope. It's a reductio ad absurdum. Maybe you should read the link you keep referring to, since you're so familiar with it?

If it's ok to force people to live in space where they don't want to live, then it is ok to force people to live in space where they don't want to live. He's saying that it's ok that null sucks because there's always highsec, and people not wanting to be there is inconsequential. Thus, it's ok to make highsec suck because there's always low and null, and people not wanting to be there is inconsequential.

So, no, “just go to highsec” is not a valid argument for keeping the game imbalanced, and his entire premise is fundamentally flawed, thoroughly ignorant, and unless he actually thinks that it's also ok to remove all income from highsec, he's also a hypocrite.

Buzzy Warstl wrote:
The simple fact is that there aren't enough people in sovereign nullsec to support highsec levels of industry.

Manufacturing slots lie fallow because there isn't sufficient demand for them, for numerous reasons mostly to do with
…the fact that there's no reason to use them as long as highsec offers a far better deal. The reason there aren't enough people in null doing industry is because null industry doesn't support the level of industry required for null.

Quote:
If there were highsec levels of industry slots in nullsec, it would all lie fallow because
…highsec still offers a better deal, which is why the baseline provided by highsec has to be made much less enticing.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#426 - 2013-03-07 23:11:47 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.


There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#427 - 2013-03-07 23:14:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Sure it is.
Nope. It's a reductio ad absurdum. Maybe you should read the link you keep referring to, since you're so familiar with it?

If it's ok to force people to live in space where they don't want to live, then it is ok to force people to live in space where they don't want to live. He's saying that it's ok that null sucks because there's always highsec, and people not wanting to be there is inconsequential. Thus, it's ok to make highsec suck because there's always low and null, and people not wanting to be there is inconsequential.

So, no, “just go to highsec” is not a valid argument for keeping the game imbalanced, and his entire premise is fundamentally flawed, thoroughly ignorant, and unless he actually thinks that it's also ok to remove all income from highsec, he's also a hypocrite.


You spin me right round, baby
right round like a record, baby
Right round round round

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#428 - 2013-03-07 23:16:09 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the
…mechanics, which is why they're slated for a change and why highseccers are so desperate to spam threads such as this to paint the picture that severe game imbalances are somehow a good thing that must be preserved at all costs.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#429 - 2013-03-07 23:17:01 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
The simple fact is that there aren't enough people in sovereign nullsec to support highsec levels of industry.

Manufacturing slots lie fallow because there isn't sufficient demand for them, for numerous reasons mostly to do with nobody wanting to feed potential opposition.

If there were highsec levels of industry slots in nullsec, it would all lie fallow because the politics that make the current system what it is wouldn't have changed.

Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.


They lie fallow because there is literally no reason to use them. Currently, importing any great quantities of minerals to nullsec requires mineral compression, which requires the use of a 0.0 refinery station. Once you melt the guns and XL crystals and such and have a pile of minerals, you then have to haul them to a station with slots - only Minmatar outposts can yield 100% refines while having a "decent" (i.e. more than 2) number of manufacturing slots.

You also can't source those quantities of minerals in nullsec - mining enough lowends to do any real manufacturing in 0.0 would require all of the belts in a region to be stripped on a daily basis. Nobody has that kind of manpower, and mining veldspar in 0.0 is no different from mining it in a 1.0 system.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Zircon Dasher
#430 - 2013-03-07 23:26:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the
…mechanics, which is why they're slated for a change and why highseccers are so desperate to spam threads such as this to paint the picture that severe game imbalances are somehow a good thing that must be preserved at all costs.



And by highseccers you do mean null-sec pvp toon alts...... right?

Its much better to log in an alt in the safe space a few jumps from a hub, where I don't have to be bothered with :effort: AND I get to keep all the profits for myself.

That way I can spend all my real time in the game making pew pew without having to worry about my income streams.Blink

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#431 - 2013-03-07 23:29:45 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.


There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them.

And you call Malcanis intellectually dishonest.
You disgust me.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Zhade Lezte
#432 - 2013-03-07 23:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhade Lezte
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

No. I would be fine with High sec stations charging slightly more.

The objective is to allow Null Outposts and POSs to be the more than the NPC stations.

Outposts cost money, POSs cost money. Both attract risk to that money.

So therefore they should have abilities that are better and cheaper than NPC stations.


So long as it is cheaper and easier to produce in high sec then thats where I will continue to build.


And that's the one real recurring and true issue.

Even if hi sec stations refined at 10% efficiency, even if people had to only use POSes, they'd still stick to hi sec, including you.


He said cheaper and easier, not either cheaper or easier.

The rest of your rant is based on your preconceptions of the game, and arguing them is pointless because none of us can actually bring up relevant and impartial statistics in the manner. As it stands there's just a lot of us in this thread who would like to do industry in nullsec but highsec is just so much better. Count me in that "insignificant minority".

PS: training my third industry alt. Like the other two, he will build in highsec in the current game environment.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#433 - 2013-03-07 23:38:25 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.


There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them.

And you call Malcanis intellectually dishonest.
You disgust me.


The truth disgusts you.

Null Sec doesnt need to be run the way its run. The players choose to run it like it is. They chose long ago to not encourage neutral trading and industry inside their pieces of SOV space and instead turned them into their personal care bear havens mining their isk spigots.

Yes, it is disgusting. Its disgusting that a group of people willfully ignore their own part in the problems they have.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Zhade Lezte
#434 - 2013-03-07 23:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhade Lezte
Sariah Kion wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Thinking that this can be changed without changing what nullsec is, on a fundamental and painful basis for the current lords of nullsec, is wishful thinking.


There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the PEOPLE IN null sec. Until they come to accept this cold hard truth nothing much will change for them.

And you call Malcanis intellectually dishonest.
You disgust me.


The truth disgusts you.

Null Sec doesnt need to be run the way its run. The players choose to run it like it is. They chose long ago to not encourage neutral trading and industry inside their pieces of SOV space and instead turned them into their personal care bear havens mining their isk spigots.

Yes, it is disgusting. Its disgusting that a group of people willfully ignore their own part in the problems they have.


Why would neutral industrialists (traders would work just fine) work in sov of a NRDS owned and operated landlord when industry in highsec is safer, cheaper, has easier access to minerals, and is only slightly less profitable (in terms of the price you can sell your goods for)?


Convince me that they don't suffer from the exact same problems that NBSI coalition industrialists have.
Zhade Lezte
#435 - 2013-03-07 23:53:39 UTC
I mean you at least need to call for jump freighters to be nerfed for your "it's *your fault*" argument, because clearly then neutral traders and industry will be our ~only hope~ instead of moving all our staging systems to 1 jump from highsec because living in 0.0 just became entirely unfeasible.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#436 - 2013-03-07 23:55:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
There is no question the biggest problem with null sec is the
…mechanics, which is why they're slated for a change and why highseccers are so desperate to spam threads such as this to paint the picture that severe game imbalances are somehow a good thing that must be preserved at all costs.

Well, then we can have the discussion about industry again after the sovereignty mechanics change, because right now it would be a waste of developer time.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
stoicfaux
#437 - 2013-03-08 00:29:46 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
The simple fact is that there aren't enough people in sovereign nullsec to support highsec levels of industry.

I'm inclined to disagree. According to CCP Diagoras' tweets, null mining volume was pretty impressive given that the high-sec population is three times that of null. If null is organized enough to mine that much ore, then it is probably a safe bet that null industry would take off.

Quote:

From May 10th of last year: https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/200614260085243904
Average mined per day for the last 7 days: High (1.47bn m3), Low (13.8m m3), Null (796m m3), WH (112m m3). #tweetfleet

the answer to the % of >5m SP chars in high sec is... 67%! https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/159660258753658882/photo/1
67% in high-sec
21% in null-sec

Or...
1,470 / 67 = 21.9 million units of ore per % of population
796 / 21 = 37.9 million unis of per per % of population...

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#438 - 2013-03-08 00:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
Not sure what the concept of "better at industry" means? Trade / Markets drive industry. Places where the market thrives industry will thrive. Areas where access and trade routes are not secure, ganking is high, and loss of cargo (read profit) is high will never have bustling markets / trade and will therefore never compare to high sec (read secure) industry.

yk
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#439 - 2013-03-08 01:11:56 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
The simple fact is that there aren't enough people in sovereign nullsec to support highsec levels of industry.

I'm inclined to disagree. According to CCP Diagoras' tweets, null mining volume was pretty impressive given that the high-sec population is three times that of null. If null is organized enough to mine that much ore, then it is probably a safe bet that null industry would take off.

Quote:

From May 10th of last year: https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/200614260085243904
Average mined per day for the last 7 days: High (1.47bn m3), Low (13.8m m3), Null (796m m3), WH (112m m3). #tweetfleet

the answer to the % of >5m SP chars in high sec is... 67%! https://twitter.com/CCP_Diagoras/status/159660258753658882/photo/1
67% in high-sec
21% in null-sec

Or...
1,470 / 67 = 21.9 million units of ore per % of population
796 / 21 = 37.9 million unis of per per % of population...


Certainly with all that mining if there was market support for nullsec industry beyond current levels there wouldn't be any idle manufacturing lines, since mining will be dominantly done in systems with refining stations, and it's only going to be one jump to a manufacturing station.

The obvious answer to this dilemma is the minerals get shipped to highsec, because that's where the market is, because that's where the most player activity is. It appears from some of the comments on these threads that the 21% of 5M+ SP toons in nullsec are mostly idle compared to their highsec counterparts, making their harvesting abilities all the more impressive.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Frying Doom
#440 - 2013-03-08 01:18:43 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Sentamon wrote:

And they already are, by a mile.

Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.

So you would be fine if all the industry for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry was moved to Null?


Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..

See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh?



And you would have exactly the same problem as Null a top down system that does not benefit the grunt or the amount of work they do.

Moon mining was one of the worst ideas ever conceived in EvE. I am not surprised you support it.

Oh also does that mean we get to have cynos, bubbles and capitals in Hi-sec?


I dont. I think its ****** as well. It is, however, a source of vast wealth for null sec players. Unfortunately the few that are in power positions are the only ones that truly benefit.

The ISK is there to be had in null sec in far greater quantities than high. The only ones stopping you are other players. Null Sec's problems are 10% system and 90% player.

They never want to admit they they are the cause of most of their own problems.

Yes there is wealth in Null but it is the game mechanics that are screwed.

Look at moon mining as you correctly say a lot of wealth in few hands rather than the wealth being there for all to have.

The same goes for industry, it favours huge alliances with hundreds of jump freighters that can go to jita and buy the minerals to turn into supers and that is about all that Null industry is good for.

If you want to build for example a battlecruiser, you are just better off paying a markup and having it imported for you and if you don't have that capability well you are just screwed.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!