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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#401 - 2013-03-07 17:22:34 UTC
I don't think he said anything about it being fair, more about how it should, I don't know, make sense.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#402 - 2013-03-07 17:27:24 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I don't think he said anything about it being fair, more about how it should, I don't know, make sense.

yea. it would be good if these stations charge pilots for let's say using of repairing, manufacturing facilities.... For renting offices....

ooops.... Shocked

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#403 - 2013-03-07 17:37:24 UTC
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:

This is basically my mindset, we're just going about getting results in different ways. You have your sec tier system, I prefer the tiers of tax. For ever 4 people in Hi sec because of the issues discussed, theres probably 1 there because its the only place with the current system that he can be profitable.

Come to think of it, is there any reason our ideas for hisec could be used alongside each other, perhaps in less extreme guises?


Probably a bit of both would work too.
I tend to not focus everything around ISK only, because only a subset of players are really so adsorbed by the "earn ISK, earn ISK, earn ISK" concept, mainly dedicated industrialists and traders. The others are in for many reasons like PvP, tears, community building etc. etc. and their sensibility is more about what environment, limitations and features they find around the universe than straight ISK.

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Frying Doom
#404 - 2013-03-07 21:22:16 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
POS towers & outposts are two completely different things.

Yes they are but the ability to dock, reprocess, store massive amounts ect... are part of their bonuses. That is why it worries me about upgrading a structure so heavily in the industry side while it being cheap over time and cheap to install.

As an Outpost uses no fuel. But having said that I do feel that having an isk sink equal to the cost per slot of a POS would be a fair exchange.


Being able to dock in an outpost is a feature, not a bonus. Just as POS's being awful is a feature & not a bonus.

Ok then Outposts already have considerable features and subsequently, it worries me to upgrade it so heavily while the structure is so cheap when compared to a POS system and its costs over time, compared to abilities.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#405 - 2013-03-07 21:26:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Fair enough, it would remain cheaper and easier to produce inn high sec. As there are no bubbles and concord is there to protect you and your assets. This is not about forcing anyone to do anything.

It is about allowing those who risk or go out of their way to have higher faction standings or higher skilling to have more alternatives, while at the same time not destroying the game play of those in high sec, be they full time or casual industrialists.

As at the moment the only choice worth taking is Hi sec NPC stations.

So I see no problem I in your want to remain in hi sec. This is of course your choice.



Given that the bulk of my market is in VFK no, no I don't want to be in high sec. But because high sec is is the cheapest place to be thats where I stay. Its where everyone else will stay too because who in their right mind wants to make less isk?


Yes but you can make the slots cheaper in Null in terms of isk but the largest problem then becomes what is the manufacturing risk in Null.

If you are producing at the same station as you are selling it is, while if you are using a freighter to go 15 jumps even in the big blue donut it would be high risk.

That is why I jus prefer that the slots per/hr are slightly more expensive in Hi-sec NPC stations and around the same as a POS. As a hi-sec POS has the additional cost of needing hi-sec status plus charters.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#406 - 2013-03-07 21:32:18 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

No. I would be fine with High sec stations charging slightly more.

The objective is to allow Null Outposts and POSs to be the more than the NPC stations.

Outposts cost money, POSs cost money. Both attract risk to that money.

So therefore they should have abilities that are better and cheaper than NPC stations.


So long as it is cheaper and easier to produce in high sec then thats where I will continue to build.


And that's the one real recurring and true issue.

Even if hi sec stations refined at 10% efficiency, even if people had to only use POSes, they'd still stick to hi sec, including you.

This is why I say that nerfing hi sec is pointless. As long as the very "hi sec concept" exists, regardless of how much you'll nerf it, people will still firmly stick to staying there and even null sec industrialists will stick in there.

That's why I say that the only "cure" is removing hi sec completely and re-implement gradual security "decline" tied with increasing offered features (not income, *features* and capabilities).

Look at mining. Income has dropped 5 times since last year's HK days, it might still drop another 5 times and people will still do it.

PI? The same. Hi sec planets suck, there's a sensible tax yet only a fraction bothers doing PI outside of hi sec.
Hi sec L4 missions? The same. From > 100M per hour now they might be down to 30-40 yet people firmly sticks doing them.
Why? Simple. Because they are the slack, casual, no brainer and still with positive profits expectation over time.

Hi sec gives low losses, removes any risk of losing stuff (locked in hostile station or popped POS) but most of all it gives positive profits expectation over time. Less than everywhere else? Nobody cares, plenty enough to keep buying PLEX, ships and whatever.

So, once CCP will have spent half year+ improving null sec industry, in the end 95% of the playerbase won't give a crap, because there's always the fail-safe positive profits expectation over time zone.

Only a full blown solution with hi sec removal would actually affect gameplay to really make people leave such comfort place.

That's probably the reason why CCP have not spent half year+ improving null sec industry while nerfing hi sec: because it'd be irrelevant to any but a minority who are ready for more profit without the fail safe zone.

This is very much about offering people real choices. Yes if things are altered in favour of player owned structures then a lot of people still would chose not to use them but a fair few would choose too.

There are those that even if Hi-sec was trashed to the point that profits were 1/10 of all the other regions, that would still stay in hi-sec. Why because it is easier. There is concord, large markets, easy logistics ect...

This is about giving players choices so that players that do not want the safety blanket can have them. While using as few resources as possible.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Akiyo Mayaki
Perkone
Caldari State
#407 - 2013-03-07 22:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Akiyo Mayaki
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.

No
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#408 - 2013-03-07 22:23:23 UTC
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.


And they already are, by a mile.

Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Frying Doom
#409 - 2013-03-07 22:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Sentamon wrote:
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.


And they already are, by a mile.

Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.

So you would be fine if all the industry facilities for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry facilities were moved to Null?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#410 - 2013-03-07 22:29:53 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.


And they already are, by a mile.

Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.


Well said my friend. Well said.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#411 - 2013-03-07 22:31:25 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.


And they already are, by a mile.

Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.

So you would be fine if all the industry for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry was moved to Null?


Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..

See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh?


[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Frying Doom
#412 - 2013-03-07 22:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Sariah Kion wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.


And they already are, by a mile.

Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.

So you would be fine if all the industry for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry was moved to Null?


Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..

See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh?



And you would have exactly the same problem as Null a top down system that does not benefit the grunt or the amount of work they do.

Moon mining was one of the worst ideas ever conceived in EvE. I am not surprised you support it.

Oh also does that mean we get to have cynos, bubbles and capitals in Hi-sec?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#413 - 2013-03-07 22:38:47 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.

And they already are, by a mile.
…apart from the whole “being rewarded” part, since null industry is all punishment.

Quote:
Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists
…if you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?).

Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#414 - 2013-03-07 22:41:24 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
Akiyo Mayaki wrote:
Since EVE is a sandbox game, I'd like to see pilots who make use of nullsec be rewarded on a much larger scale than people who simply fly around in NPC space. A player should be encouraged to go out and do something, risk vs. reward is a good way of doing this.


And they already are, by a mile.

Lack of uber null industry is a made up problem that only exists in the minds of the nullseccer entitlement generation.

So you would be fine if all the industry for Null sec was moved to high sec...and all of hi-sec industry was moved to Null?


Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..

See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh?



And you would have exactly the same problem as Null a top down system that does not benefit the grunt or the amount of work they do.

Moon mining was one of the worst ideas ever conceived in EvE. I am not surprised you support it.

Oh also does that mean we get to have cynos, bubbles and capitals in Hi-sec?


I dont. I think its ****** as well. It is, however, a source of vast wealth for null sec players. Unfortunately the few that are in power positions are the only ones that truly benefit.

The ISK is there to be had in null sec in far greater quantities than high. The only ones stopping you are other players. Null Sec's problems are 10% system and 90% player.

They never want to admit they they are the cause of most of their own problems.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Primary Me
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#415 - 2013-03-07 22:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary Me
Sariah Kion wrote:
Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..

See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh?

Made yourself look even more foolish than you normally do?

Edit: Meh. In the interest of good debate I retract the statement above, and remind myself not to criticise anyone's point of view in a thread that I created to solicit those very points of view!

Please carry on with the discussion.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#416 - 2013-03-07 22:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sariah Kion
Tippia wrote:
…if you have this odd belief that players should be able to build something in player-controlled space that's better than what NPC can provide in NPC space (you know, to give the whole player-run thing some kind of reason for existing?.
Oh, and it also exists in pure numbers and embedded in the mechanics.


If this is what you're basing the legitimacy of your argument on no wonder you all keep falling flat on your face. Its this sense of entitlement that fuels the irrational demands and logic being spewed out from null sec bears.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#417 - 2013-03-07 22:46:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…apart from the whole “being rewarded” part, since null industry is all punishment.


Then don't build in nullsec, there's nothing stopping you from using highsec industry.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#418 - 2013-03-07 22:46:52 UTC
Primary Me wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Sure as long as you move mine able moons to high sec only while you're at it..

See what I did there? Do you see it? huh? huh?

Made yourself look even more foolish than you normally do?


The truth hits these self entitled null sec bears right were it hurts.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#419 - 2013-03-07 22:48:14 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…apart from the whole “being rewarded” part, since null industry is all punishment.


Then don't build in nullsec, there's nothing stopping you from using highsec industry.


Exactly. The levels of self entitlement are astounding with these null sec care bears. I mean, epic proportions.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#420 - 2013-03-07 22:58:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sentamon wrote:
Then don't build in nullsec, there's nothing stopping you from using highsec industry.
So you're all for removing all income from highsec, then?
There's nothing stopping people from making money in low and null…

In fact, you're all for removing industry from highsec, I preseume, since there's nothing stopping people from doing that in low and null?