EVE General Discussion

We are out here to build empires. Now name an empire that had no industry.

And that's the problem. EVE needs more sand. The current high-sec NPC based game mechanics trump the player driven "emergent gameplay" mechanics in null.

So what needs to change? Well as I see it, high sec has one (HUGE!) thing going for it: security (i.e. 23x7 NPC provided security) Security allows high-sec to tap its abundant resources (mining, missioning, industry, logistics, etc..) What is security good for? It allows high-sec dwellers to tap into high-sec's abundant, lower-quality resources and make profit. People feel safe enough to do business in high-sec.

In comparison, null has abundant resources, higher quality resources, jumpship/bridge logistics, and resources that are unavailable in high-sec. So what's the problem with null? Not enough industry slots? Not enough security? Or something else?

Industry slots appear to be a problem, but industry slots require raw materials. So fixing industry slots isn't going to fix null-sec industry. As for security, null has sov and open PvP to provide security to the point that people can be "null-bears" in null-sec, yet null cannot attract enough miners and industrialists to work locally. Carebears do not feel safe in null.

So why don't carebears feel that null is safe enough to live/work in?

I'm going to go on a limb and say that it's attitude. Null-sec appears to be populated by African Warlords[1] and bandits, a situation which doesn't tend to attract big business. The Roman Empire didn't become the Roman Empire solely because of the l33t PvPing of its warrior caste. It became great because there was a huge "middle class" (plebes, slaves) and trade network supporting the empire and its legions. You can have the best PvPers in the game/world, but they don't amount to a hill of beans if you don't have the workforce to develop and maintain the industry (food, weapons, ships, gold, etc.) to keep the army marching.

Null has warriors but not enough plebes. High-sec has plebes *and* warriors (i.e. NPC security).

Thus, the null-sec workforce/plebeians/middle class is the high-sec carebear. Unless null (aka the CSM and CCP) find a way to attract carebears (you know, miners, mission runners, industrialists, haulers, etc.) into null, then null will always be reliant upon high-sec, and no amount of whining about "how high-sec carebear pods are made of gold" is going to change that.


tl;dr - Null leadership needs to encourage carebears to live, work, and thrive in their piece of null-sec. They need to change (or lose) the "null is PvP incarnate; carebears need not apply" perception/attitude. Seriously, if Erik the Red can get away with calling Greenland Greenland, then you can claim to be a nullbear paradise filled with huge tracts of rich asteroids and bountiful rat bounties and attract a carebear workforce to build up your industrial base.



[1] No offense to any African Warlord players. I know most of you are great people, but a few bad apples have spoiled your image.

…because the game doesn't allow for it. If it did, they would, rather than stay in high and do their null-destined production there. The null producers already exist — tons of them — but the imbalance of the availability, capacity, cost, security, and ease of use force them to produce in highsec instead.

This has already been done on numerous occasions. So yes, please learn the point being deiscussed so you can argue it rather than make silly irrelevant noises.

Just to help you, here is the point: game imbalances in industry mean that NPC-controlled space mechanically gives more player freedom than player-controlled space. It forces players to work in space they don't live in (and don't particularly want to be in). It renders game content obsolete and meaningless. If this sounds like an ideal state of affairs for anyone, I must conclude that those people feel it's an excellent idea to have a 100% tax on all income in highsec — after all, forcing highseccers to live in low or null if they want to earn ISK must be an equally ideal state of affairs for the exact same reason. You can still run missions or trade or build or do whatever, but all ISK coming into your wallet will be removed. The content is still there so you can still use it just fine… right? Right?

Anyway……updated, same URL.

It is nice to see ISD cleaned up the thread, since it means that at least someone at CCP is monitoring it.

However, when I see devs respond to wedding announcements and monacle club threads, but ignore threads that are about a main point of contention in the current class warfare in the game, I really question the priorities of CCP.

why? no matter what they say it will be twisted, bent, and taken out of all context and inappropriately quoted in a score of places. better for them to just keep the thread clean and see what people are saying than start an argument over "ccp said this, ccp said that" when in reality ccp didn't say this, or that.

And you manage to avoid the issues altogether?

Issue, not enough slots in 0.0.
Now some numbers would be nice. What are the current usage statistics of all currently existing slots, broken down by high/low/null/ and their current usage level.

I logged on an alt in Delve just for laughs.

Over 1000 manufacturing slots in Delve.......less than 100 in use.....

Yep, I can see that a shortage of manufacturing slots is a serious issue in Delve at least....:)

Delve is a warzone and has been for the last month. You would know this if you had payed the slightest bit of attention.

Actually levels of development has everything to do with it but that's going down a divergent path so I'll discontinue that point in this thread.

What actual resources are needed in Null which aren't available? I'm asking about resources, not goods or ability to make goods. An increase in manufacturing capabilities does seem to be an issue which needs to be addressed for NS (conceding that point).

I'm not arguing one side or the other rather trying to figure out exactly what NS wants other than the normal, "Null-sec should be better than hi-sec argument."

Only the slots we need at a price that lets us compete with highsec.

As I already stated earlier, data in and of itself is neither good nor bad, but accurate data is always welcome.
However, data in a vacuum is worthless.

This bit of data provided by Tippia is just part of a much bigger picture, and the amount of mfg slots in high sec, low, null, and wh's is useless without other data to add context.