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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

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Grimm Griefer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2013-03-07 13:39:29 UTC
CCP have listened, in an upcoming patch (if they haven't done it already) they are making same radical changes to ship skilling
so that getting to certain classes won't be as terribad as it used to (skiffs and orcas)
this will then give new pilots slightly more options at start than is current which is admittedly pretty horrible. Saying that getting into a good corp helps a lot as the advice they can offer can offset that 'wall' somewhat. want to do lvl 4 missions but can only fly a cruiser. No worries we will form a fleet, get a logi on you we fly the big ships, you shoot targets, we keep you alive you reap the iskie rewards and standings that come your way. If they are really good corp they also have freebie ships for you to take out and use..
next thing you know you are passed that initial hurdle, enjoying the game and not looking back. but that first period without any guidance can be daunting. Other MMO's though you can usually pick the game up in hours, then start the lvling grind.
EvE just takes a bit longer, but the rewards are far more satisifying.
Haulie Berry
#202 - 2013-03-07 14:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Quote:
Telling an aspiring battleship pilot to spend half a year mining as one of only a few ways to generate the ISK needed for playing speaks of a severe lack of empathy on your part, bordering on sociopathy.


I did not suggest this. Somewhere along the way you said something like why dueling, what about mining, what if that guy is a miner?

And that got me interested, because I have never mined before. so I ran the numbers and then pointed out that your question was idiotic, and that it is even easier to be a competitive miner than a competitive combat pilot. ******* math, right?

So now we've moved the goalposts - we must ignore combat because what if that guy is not a combat pilot and we must ignore mining because it is inhumane and i am pretty sure that if people keep explaining how a new player can quickly become competitive in a given role, you will keep inventing reasons why that role should be ignored for the sake of this argument and pretty soon the only "role" left will be titan pilot and then you finally get to be right for once, because that **** could definitely take a couple of years.

Let us get some others out of the way:

You could begin building stuff for fun and profit in about 13 days of training (hard to get by without PE 5, but you could start sooner if you were building only "extra materials" items like POS parts).

What about hauling and trading? You can fly a freighter in about 3 weeks. What are the excuses there?

It is actually quite easy to become competitive in most roles in Eve in very little time.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#203 - 2013-03-07 16:20:37 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Telling an aspiring battleship pilot to spend half a year mining as one of only a few ways to generate the ISK needed for playing speaks of a severe lack of empathy on your part, bordering on sociopathy.


I did not suggest this. Somewhere along the way you said something like why dueling, what about mining, what if that guy is a miner?


Well, you did not state the intention of your post anywhere, so i had to guess. Communication skills ftw.

I wanted to get away from the misleading idea, that being competitive is only about a direct PvP duel.

Quote:

And that got me interested, because I have never mined before. so I ran the numbers and then pointed out that your question was idiotic, and that it is even easier to be a competitive miner than a competitive combat pilot. ******* math, right?


Basic math tells me that 1000 > 900. So your aspiring miner loses against the competitor.
Also you're comparing retriever vs. retriever, while you should compare mackinaw vs. retriever.

There the difference is further increased, which you're ignorant of due to your lack of understanding.
You're listing the retriever with mining drones, which is just stupid, as the solo mining barges are lacking the drone bay to bring mining drones AND combat drones, yet they need a set of combat drones in order to not be forced from the belt if rats show up.
(Theoretically the procurer can ignore rats and thus use mining drones, but the ship has other issues making it less efficient and comfortable than the retriever)

So in reality we're looking at something like 1500 vs. 1000 m3/h , which means any kind of competition would be lost hands down.



That's a bit beside the point though, as I somewhat doubt the OP's friends were planning a mining career, which plateaus rather quickly, so there is no real SP-wall-of-QUIT there.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#204 - 2013-03-07 16:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
forums ate my post
Haulie Berry
#205 - 2013-03-07 16:49:15 UTC
forumnomnom
Haulie Berry
#206 - 2013-03-07 16:49:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:


Basic math tells me that 1000 > 900. So your aspiring miner loses against the competitor.
Also you're comparing retriever vs. retriever, while you should compare mackinaw vs. retriever.

There the difference is further increased, which you're ignorant of due to your lack of understanding.


It is a very marginal yield increase (1%/exhumer skill) at a very large cost increase. What the mackinaw primarily offers over the retriever is additional tank, but that has no particular effect in high security, and is still too little to be adequate anywhere else. This is why the retriever is, far and away, the preferred mining platform at the moment for children of all ages.




Quote:
You're listing the retriever with mining drones, which is just stupid, as the solo mining barges are lacking the drone bay to bring mining drones AND combat drones, yet they need a set of combat drones in order to not be forced from the belt if rats show up.


Yes I am aware, and I chose mining drones for the mockup to provide the most benefit to YOUR position - not mine. If you look carefully you will notice that a large portion of the yield difference between our experienced pilot and our newbie is a result of the drones - not the strip miners.

With a realistic solo fit utilizing a flight of combat drones, the veteran has even less of a yield advantage. You did see the no-drone numbers listed right along side the others, I assume?

But then, you do have a demonstrated habit of ignoring that which is inconvenient. I'm also being a sweetheart and completely ignoring the cost of of the mining crystals for the modulated strip miners - again, something that is beneficial to your position, not mine.


Quote:
So in reality we're looking at something like 1500 vs. 1000 m3/h , which means any kind of competition would be lost hands down.


Since you didn't want drones involved (despite the fact that they actually work in your favor, not mine :D), a Mackinaw with 3x MLU IIs and modulated strips pulls 1339 with all 5s and T2 mining crystals.

Your idea of competitive seems to be "matches or exceeds". Those goalposts seem to have an MWD strapped to them, now. :)

Our new miner is able to achieve the bulk of effectiveness of the veteran, with a fraction of the time (and isk) investment. This shouldn't be surprising, since there is an approximate "80-20 rule" inherently built into Eve's skill system.

That you feel this does not constitute "competitive" rather illustrates, again, that what I am dealing with is a petulant child, and not someone with a reasoned opinion based on facts. The system allows you to achieve the vast majority of the effectiveness of an older player very quickly, and it also allows you to spend a large amount of time on perfecting that last tiny bit, if you so choose.

You are complaining about the last tiny bit, essentially asserting that, while it's trivially easy for any new player to be almost-as-good in very, very little time, it's "unfair" that they can't be exactly as effective as the older player unless they also make the exact same time investment.


Quote:
That's a bit beside the point though, as I somewhat doubt the OP's friends were planning a mining career, which plateaus rather quickly, so there is no real SP-wall-of-QUIT there.


You brought up mining. I just pointed out why you were stupid for doing so. We don't really know what the OP's friends had been planning, since the OP has steadfastly refused to say, but it is unlikely that it was any less accessible than mining, industry, or combat.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#207 - 2013-03-07 17:07:38 UTC

I understand the SP frustration... as I too found it daunting when I started planning to get into big ships...

But to be honest, when I first started playing, I focused on learning skills (thank god those were removed).
Then I focused on core skills and skills that allowed me to explore EvE... In this game you don't need perfect skills to be competent... and I'm sorry if you feel that way.

You can very quickly get to level 4 skills.... you can cheaply buy meta 1 & 2 items to use...
^^ Sure, that means you're not zooming around in a t2 ship with t2 fittings, but SO WHAT....

When I first started PvPing... several years ago, I flew ships like the tristen, merlin, and eventually the all-powerful rifter. I couldn't fly a BS, I couldn't use t2 guns, and my typical combat fit cost about 700k to 1m isk, including the SHIP. I took it out specifically fit to gank interceptors, often flying solo through every conceivable area of nullsec looking for targets.

While that might not sound like fun to you, most things in EvE are very accessible at a low-SP level.... and developing the skillset to fly your ship when you are not the "most skilled" is what makes a good pilot in the end.

Seriously, scanning, exploration, manufacturing, mining, missioning, PvP, .... none of these require "huge" amounts of SP to get into... Sure, it's not instant, but its not years or even months to enter into these professions. At most, it takes a few weeks, and often it takes only a couple of days.

I think EvE's skill system is actually ingenious, with it taking a very short time to become capable, but much longer to become "maxed".
Haulie Berry
#208 - 2013-03-07 17:33:20 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


I think EvE's skill system is actually ingenious, with it taking a very short time to become capable, but much longer to become "maxed".


Yes. Exactly. If you want to be a pretty good miner, you can do that, easily. If you want to be a pretty good combat pilot, you can do that, easily. If you want to be a pretty good miner and a pretty good combat pilot, even that isn't too hard.

That is not enough for the instant-gratification kids. No, it has to be easy to be both a perfect combat pilot and a perfect miner at the same time. Roll
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#209 - 2013-03-07 17:48:14 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:


Yes I am aware, and I chose mining drones for the mockup to provide the most benefit to YOUR position - not mine.


You keep repeating that but it just shows your lack of understanding.

The Mackinaw can bring a flight of mining drones PLUS combat drones. The retriever can NOT bring mining drones, because without combat drones it would be even less efficient as it would have to flee whenever rats appear.

Every miner worth his salt I've been talking to uses the Mackinaw unless there is a gank risk or he can't afford it.

So the comparison IS between the Mackinaw WITH mining drones and the Retriever without, with my 1500 vs 1000 comparison i was already rounding in your favor. Strongly, actually.

Quote:
You are complaining about the last tiny bit, essentially asserting that, while it's trivially easy for any new player to be almost-as-good in very, very little time, it's "unfair" that they can't be exactly as effective as the older player unless they also make the exact same time investment.


50% is a tiny bit? You must be out of your mind. People are investing billions into implants that give them 6% instead of 4% bonus.

Quote:

That you feel this does not constitute "competitive" rather illustrates, again, that what I am dealing with is a petulant child, and not someone with a reasoned opinion based on facts.


Again, you focused on mining from an offhand commentary i made.

Even with your apparent lack of understanding regarding basic principles, you SHOULD be able to realize what YOUR definition of competition would mean in a PvP situation. One ship explodes, the other doesn't. ALWAYS the same player's ship.
Haulie Berry
#210 - 2013-03-07 18:01:46 UTC
Quote:
Every miner worth his salt I've been talking to uses the Mackinaw unless there is a gank risk or he can't afford it.


Cool, we're lying now. :D

Quote:
The Mackinaw can bring a flight of mining drones PLUS combat drones. The retriever can NOT bring mining drones, because without combat drones it would be even less efficient as it would have to flee whenever rats appear.


People fly this hull because they can turn it on and go away until it's full. As an ardent supporter of minerbumping, I've spent a lot of time around miners. Retrievers are, by vast margin, the preferred platform, and nobody is dicking around with drone management. Solo, they pack combat. In groups with an orca, the orca packs combat and the rest pack mining.

Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

Quote:
You are complaining about the last tiny bit, essentially asserting that, while it's trivially easy for any new player to be almost-as-good in very, very little time, it's "unfair" that they can't be exactly as effective as the older player unless they also make the exact same time investment.


50% is a tiny bit? You must be out of your mind. People are investing billions into implants that give them 6% instead of 4% bonus.



Relative to the time investment? You betcha, especially when we ignore the fictional ATK miner.

Quote:
One ship explodes, the other doesn't. ALWAYS the same player's ship.


Also a lie.
Namdor
#211 - 2013-03-07 18:04:12 UTC
Quote:
One ship explodes, the other doesn't. ALWAYS the same player's ship.


I guess if you're the kind of really bad player who hits orbit and turns their guns on, this might be true.

Are you that bad?
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#212 - 2013-03-07 18:08:16 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


I think EvE's skill system is actually ingenious, with it taking a very short time to become capable, but much longer to become "maxed".


Yes. Exactly. If you want to be a pretty good miner, you can do that, easily. If you want to be a pretty good combat pilot, you can do that, easily. If you want to be a pretty good miner and a pretty good combat pilot, even that isn't too hard.

That is not enough for the instant-gratification kids. No, it has to be easy to be both a perfect combat pilot and a perfect miner at the same time. Roll


Always the stupid 'instant gratification' commentaries.

Noone wants that and the SP system as SUCH is a pretty good system IMO (especially since it strikes my min/max nerve quite strongly).

It is strongly lopsided though.

Becoming a perfect miner? No problem.
Perfect trader? No problem.

Perfect scanner? Seemingly not a problem until you realize that we're actually talking about a T3 pilot here, nowadays.

Acceptable PVE combat pilot? Minimum battleship with all-IV skills.
Acceptable PvP pilot? Most corps worth mentioning want Command ship + all IV, some skills at V.

Capital pilot? Only for dedicated Alts.


Now imagine you are a potential new player who heard about that awesome space MMO. Are you attracted to it because
you can become a competitive miner or trader? Yeah, thought so.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#213 - 2013-03-07 18:10:58 UTC
Namdor wrote:
Quote:
One ship explodes, the other doesn't. ALWAYS the same player's ship.


I guess if you're the kind of really bad player who hits orbit and turns their guns on, this might be true.

Are you that bad?


Weird, how everyone assumes his opponent is a complete idiot.

If we're both equally skilled, he who does 20% more damage and can also tank 20% more damage will consistently win.
Haulie Berry
#214 - 2013-03-07 18:21:38 UTC
Quote:
Acceptable PVE combat pilot? Minimum battleship with all-IV skills.


That is not exactly a strenuous training plan.

It's also completely unnecessary, unless your definition of "PvE combat" is limited to "running level 4 missions". I've belt ratted in 0 in assault frigates. You can do WHs and low-sec DED plexes in a battlecruiser. Again, you like to ignore that which is inconvenient.

Quote:
Acceptable PvP pilot? Most corps worth mentioning want Command ship + all IV, some skills at V.


Couple questions.

#1: How did you come by the delusion that command ships are a common recruiting requirement?
#2: Why is your definition of "acceptable PvP pilot" contingent on corporate recruiting?


Now imagine you are a potential new player who heard about that awesome space MMO. Are you attracted to it because
you can become a competitive miner or trader? Yeah, thought so.

You do know there are people who play this game and really only engage in economic activity, right?

I spend the vast majority of my time on S&I and trading. Every now and then, I shoot something for funsies.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#215 - 2013-03-07 19:00:11 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Acceptable PVE combat pilot? Minimum battleship with all-IV skills.


That is not exactly a strenuous training plan.

It's also completely unnecessary, unless your definition of "PvE combat" is limited to "running level 4 missions". I've belt ratted in 0 in assault frigates. You can do WHs and low-sec DED plexes in a battlecruiser. Again, you like to ignore that which is inconvenient.



No, we are talking about newbies here that leave the game after their first deeper foray into EVEmon or similar.

Is it possible to do other things than lvl4 missions in a battleship? Certainly.
is it relevant in the context of our discussion? Not in the least!

Because people are leaving when they realize it takes ages to sufficiently fit and fly the ship they laid their eyes on while being clueless newbs! Which is with good probability a Machariel, Nightmare, Vargur or the like, because everyone and their mother are flying such and they see those ships undocking all the time.

Quote:


Now imagine you are a potential new player who heard about that awesome space MMO. Are you attracted to it because
you can become a competitive miner or trader? Yeah, thought so.

You do know there are people who play this game and really only engage in economic activity, right?

I spend the vast majority of my time on S&I and trading. Every now and then, I shoot something for funsies.


Yes and it's awesome that it's possible to have a successful career with economic activity in EVE.

However, what is CCP mosst strongly advertising with? Massive space battles.
What will be most likely attracting your regular gamer? The strong market economics?

Are there people that drive pink cars? Definitely. What color do cars in TV spots normally have?
Haulie Berry
#216 - 2013-03-07 19:16:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Quote:
Is it possible to do other things than lvl4 missions in a battleship? Certainly.
is it relevant in the context of our discussion? Not in the least!


-Economic activities don't count, they're not fun.
-PvP doesn't count, you have to able to fly command ships or carriers before you can do that ****.
-PvE? It's not relevant that there is a huge variety of PvE newer players can engage in, because... because... just because. No, all that matters are the L4 missions (which do not take that long to train for, anyway).

What did I say earlier?

Quote:
...i am pretty sure that if people keep explaining how a new player can quickly become competitive in a given role, you will keep inventing reasons why that role should be ignored for the sake of this argument and pretty soon the only "role" left will be titan pilot and then you finally get to be right for once, because that **** could definitely take a couple of years.



We seem to be rapidly approaching that point, now.


Quote:
Because people are leaving when they realize it takes ages to sufficiently fit and fly the ship they laid their eyes on while being clueless newbs! Which is with good probability a Machariel, Nightmare, Vargur or the like, because everyone and their mother are flying such and they see those ships undocking all the time.


*Ahem*...

Quote:
Always the stupid 'instant gratification' commentaries.


"Newbies quit the game because they can't fly a Machariel right out of the gate, but this isn't about instant gratification so don't say that!" Lol

Quote:
However, what is CCP mosst strongly advertising with? Massive space battles.


And? You can totally engage in those right out of the gate.

Hell, that's basically the entire notion behind Fweddit. Eve-Uni does it, as well.

If you assert that newer players cannot engage in PvP, you're not merely wrong. It's a demonstrably false statement, so saying otherwise nothing more than an unmitigated act of deceit.
Untanas Volmyr
Perkone
Caldari State
#217 - 2013-03-07 19:19:05 UTC
I've only been playing a few months. Although it takes forever to get to the big stuff at the end. It only exists as incentive towards a reward for investing your time. I realize I have a long way to go before I can even consider myself at a standard. Im fine with that. Some people want to rush to the end game. Which never truly exists for long anyway. So may as well enjoy the content that has already been implemented if you decide you truly enjoy the game and want to take part in its community and production. Or maybe there should also be pvp games for begginers which provide decent rewards however. The first time I played wow I found battlegrounds. Solo'd to 60 and covered myself in pvp gear. And I knew nothing about pve. I was an endgame epic level noob in that way. So maybe it would be smart for Eve to compensate some fast paced action packed t1 games. Just focus on the newcomers for now. I noticed faction warfare. Haven't had time to jump in there yet. Looking forward to it.

Murphy's Technology Law - If your not thoroughly confused. Then you were not thoroughly informed.
Novakovic
Noctuna Invasion
#218 - 2013-03-07 19:28:44 UTC
This thread is hilarious.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#219 - 2013-03-07 19:31:55 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Is it possible to do other things than lvl4 missions in a battleship? Certainly.
is it relevant in the context of our discussion? Not in the least!


So, let's review your position, in aggregate, now:

-Economic activities don't count, they're not fun.
-PvP doesn't count, you have to able to fly command ships or carriers before you can do that ****.
-PvE? Level 4s or bust. It's not relevant that newer players can engage in comparably rewarding PvE mechanisms, because... because... just because.

What did I say earlier?


Again, you don't seem to be able to grasp WHY those arguments are irrelevant.

We're talking about the newbies that quit the game / are reluctant to even START the game because of the huge SP barrier preventing them from doing the things they would deem attractive.

As an outsider (a 2 weeks old newb is effectively an outsider too, exceptions apply).

As someone who may have some experience with other space games, where you spend the majority of your time in or commanding the biggest ships.


If we are LUCKY, after 2 weeks an interesting game mechanism or a memorable event will have HOOKED them to the game enough to put up with the immense skill times - or as an incentive to make them look for alternatives or workarounds.

If not - and chances of that are terribly high - they will be lost and that is why your arguments are irrelevant, because they simply won't have an AUDIENCE.
Haulie Berry
#220 - 2013-03-07 19:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:

If not - and chances of that are terribly high - they will be lost and that is why your arguments are irrelevant, because they simply won't have an AUDIENCE.



"EVE IS DYING! Everyone must have a Machariel on day one!" LolLolLolLolLolLolLol