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FTDOV: Amarrian ship design and philosophy

Author
Vikarion
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-03-06 17:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
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Vikarion
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-03-06 17:46:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
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Vikarion
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-03-06 17:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
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Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-03-06 18:02:09 UTC
There is naught a sight more beautiful in all New Eden than a fleet of golden hulls arriving on-field, in unison.

Although what happens next as they obliterate targets in coordinated fire is a close-second for me.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-03-06 19:35:39 UTC
After having served for years in the Imperial Navy, I can attest to the accuracy of your report. Once again, you are spot on in many of the things you say, and show a clear absence of most usual prejudices. I look forward to the two remaining parts of this report.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-03-06 20:11:38 UTC
As one who studies a wide variety of hulls for their potential use in both small- and intermediate-scale capsuleer-on-capsuleer combat, the Amarrian lineup has both intrigued and frustrated me at various times. I will first speak to several points Vikarion has raised, then raise a few issues of my own with Amarrian starship design philosphy.

It is indeed true that Amarrian antimatter reactors, combined with the use of a tesseract capacitor to smooth their naturally unstable power flow, deliver the best power/m3 and power/kg out of any of the power-generation technologies available in the cluster. In addition, something I have noticed in particular is that tesseract capacitor banks seem to handle the occasional storage-element failure rather gracefully, without the need for an extensive protective relay system "added on" to prevent the bank from being overcharged, overdischarged, or excessively unbalanced. It is possible to match this power output with fusion reactors, but only at a severe cost in space aboard the ship; the Maelstrom indeed does exactly this, as its reactor takes up vastly more shipboard real estate than the Abaddon's in order to match its power output.

If the tesseract capacitor represents Imperial elegance, then their computing systems, however, represent its dark side. Although capable of supporting the automation aboard Amarrian ships, this often leads to severe compromises in available processing power and efficiency; Amarrian nano-electrical computers are some of the worst heat-generators I have seen, which leads to nagging reliability issues and spurious ship and automation behavior due to the inability of the onboard electronics cooling systems to exhaust heat efficiently, especially in heavily armored configurations. There are some prototype modifications to laser-equipped Amarrian vessels that feed focusing-lens coolant through a heat-exchanger before feeding it to the turrets in order to pick up some of that heat and send it out during the firing cycle; however, for ships that rely on drones, missiles, energy/electronic warfare, or a covert cloak, this is not a feasible solution.

Fortunately, with the exception of the cooling and computer deficiencies, Amarrian ships are all-around robust designs, with a stout superstructure that can be easily altered as-needed; excellent armor systems (and even passable shield systems in some cases, such as the Harbinger, Arbitrator, Curse, and Apocalypse); a superb power grid to support their reactors, capacitor arrays, and weaponry; and even a robust set of base thrusters and solidly constructed warp drives (while Amarr ships are not often asked to 'go fast', Amarrian thruster technology is certainly capable of delivering on such a demand, and is also remarkably tolerant to abuse). A good example of this surprising 'hackability' is the Devoter I fly, which is able to maintain flawless power-grid operation despite the use of battleship-sized thrusters and thicknesses of armor plating more typically found on an Apocalypse or Abaddon. Furthermore, the straight-forward nature of the design allowed it to be modified extensively to fit the needs of Anoikis life; something that can be more difficult to accomplish on a more sophisticated ship.

The bad news for capsuleers though is that Amarrian design philosophy is only beginning to catch up with capsuleer demands, as the relative recency of the upgrades to the Retribution, Coercer, and Omen shows. Many early Amarrian thinkers seemed to have disregarded the capsuleer's need to prevent his or her targets from escaping, instead focusing on fleet engagements conducted according to the Amarrian "fight to the death" philosophy, where the matter of tackle is swept under the rug by simply punishing those who flee the battlefield. This resulted (and sometimes continues to result) in a shortage of medium-power slots in Amarrian hulls; the Retribution and Coercer especially were victims of it due to having to make a difficult decision between being able to catch up to prey or tackle it. The Armageddon suffers from this fault as well, having one too few medium power slots to be even a remotely serviceable close-range fleet battleship in capsuleer contexts, where enhanced drive systems, warp disruption capability, the ability to keep capacitor-fed systems running in the face of hostile energy warfare, and counter-electronic-warfare capabilities all compete for valuable medium power slots. This is aggravated by the poor performance of Amarrian targeting computers, often requiring additional assistance in the form of stasis webifiers or auxiliary tracking computers to hit small targets at very close range.

Another unfortunate issue for Amarrians (and especially the Amarr Navy) is that their indigenous scout drone designs possess good speed and resilience, but startlingly poor raw firepower, to the point where they are a running joke among capsuleers. This issue has hampered the Arbitrator and its derivatives in naval operations, so much so that naval Arbitrator, Pilgrim, and Curse captains will often try to procure Matari- or Gallente- built scout drones to replace the woefully inadequate flights of Acolytes and Infiltrators that their ships were issued with. This issue also has the unfortunate side effect of rendering Amarrian battleships vulnerable to swarming attacks from small, fast ships, despite their generally adequate support for drone usage. While Amarrian fleet deployments generally counter this with an ample supply of fighter frigates such as Executioners and Slicers, such swarm attacks can be devastating when they are able to pick off battleships behind the Amarrian frontline, or worse yet, when carried out by Rogue Drones, which often pose special difficulties for Amarrian task groups due to their combination of small size, speed, and numbers.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#7 - 2013-03-06 21:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Quote:
Ships typically try to maintain a reasonable hull charge – if one's own capacitor is less than an opposing ship's, one can attempt to drain energy by providing a “bridge”, typically a stream of iron or copper molecules.


That's a technology I was not aware of, I have to admit.

I thought most power flux destabilizers were based on magnetic impulses dissonances. To me it is way more effective to kill any capacitor than painful, unelegant and hard to use bridges like these.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-03-06 21:14:49 UTC
Other race's vessels might be all find and good for various special 'tasks' and skirmish warfare...

but when it comes to large fleet engagements one only need look at which vessels capsuleers prefer.

It's no coincidence the larger capsuleer engagements almost always feature large numbers of Abaddon and "Navy" Armageddon Hulls.

None can match our combination of durability and damage projection at multiple ranges.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-03-06 22:17:31 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Other race's vessels might be all find and good for various special 'tasks' and skirmish warfare...

but when it comes to large fleet engagements one only need look at which vessels capsuleers prefer.

It's no coincidence the larger capsuleer engagements almost always feature large numbers of Abaddon and "Navy" Armageddon Hulls.

None can match our combination of durability and damage projection at multiple ranges.

While the "Foxcat" doctrines based on the Navy Armageddon and Apocalypse have been popular as of late for intermediate range operations, you do underestimate the sheer proliferation of 0.0 fleet doctrines in recent months. Heck, the CFC "Techfleet" armor doctrine uses Fleet Tempests as its DPS backbone. I've also heard of everything from Blaster Rokhs, to Moas, to Caracals, to more typical 0.0 staples such as "Welp" Hurricanes and Drakes, as well as doctrines based on the artillery Loki of all things (replacing Shadoo's infamous "ARMMMMMOOOOOORRRRRR HACS!!!!!!!", more or less).

I feel it is in intermediate-scale warfare where the golden ships truly thrive. The Guardian, Legion (neut, HAM, and sometimes laser too), and Absolution have all made names for themselves out here, with the Zealot and Sacrilege seeing some duty as well. Never mind the near-absolute superiority of the Archon as a triage or even Pantheon carrier.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#10 - 2013-03-06 22:33:24 UTC
Vikarion-haan has created an engaging, fascinating and above all useful series of articles here.

I look forward to further installments!

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#11 - 2013-03-07 01:26:40 UTC
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
Many early Amarrian thinkers seemed to have disregarded the capsuleer's need to prevent his or her targets from escaping.


"Early" Amarrian engineers could take comfort in the fact that if defenders ran away (presumably to fight another day), it just made it that much easier to enslave everyone on the planet they were supposed to be defending.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-03-07 07:36:32 UTC
Gallente ships go pew-pew-pew.

Minmatar ships go dakka-dakka-dakka.

Caldari ships go woosh-woosh-woosh.

Amarr ships go BZZOZOORORRORRMRMRMRMRMRMRZZZZZZ.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#13 - 2013-03-07 15:02:33 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
...the Amarrian fleet is by far the most beautiful. Minmatar ships are usually not even in the running, and most Gallente ships seem to have been designed by a species of slug. Caldari ships exude an air of utilitarian deadliness that strikes fear into the heart...



Perfectly expected from the State-apologizing Federation-hater I know you to be.

Honestly, I am eager to read your views on Federation Ship designs and technology. It will either be a hilarious or sad read, but entertaining, nonetheless.

Sepherim wrote:
After having served for years in the Imperial Navy, I can attest to the accuracy of your report. Once again, you are spot on in many of the things you say, and show a clear absence of most usual prejudices. I look forward to the two remaining parts of this report.


Sure he does. Let's see if you agree to this if Vikarion treats Republican and Federal ship designs with as much... respect, as I expect of him. IIRC those are the one's remaining now.
Rhiannon Dellacorte
Liberty Vanguard
#14 - 2013-03-07 15:07:26 UTC
BloodBird wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
...the Amarrian fleet is by far the most beautiful. Minmatar ships are usually not even in the running, and most Gallente ships seem to have been designed by a species of slug. Caldari ships exude an air of utilitarian deadliness that strikes fear into the heart...



Perfectly expected from the State-apologizing Federation-hater I know you to be.

Honestly, I am eager to read your views on Federation Ship designs and technology. It will either be a hilarious or sad read, but entertaining, nonetheless.

Sepherim wrote:
After having served for years in the Imperial Navy, I can attest to the accuracy of your report. Once again, you are spot on in many of the things you say, and show a clear absence of most usual prejudices. I look forward to the two remaining parts of this report.


Sure he does. Let's see if you agree to this if Vikarion treats Republican and Federal ship designs with as much... respect, as I expect of him. IIRC those are the one's remaining now.


The Pettiest IGS Post contest isn't for another month, Birdy. This could get you disqualified.

Rules of Acquisition #261

A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience.

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-03-07 15:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
BloodBird wrote:

Sure he does. Let's see if you agree to this if Vikarion treats Republican and Federal ship designs with as much... respect, as I expect of him. IIRC those are the one's remaining now.


Tsk, tsk.

You'll find his review of Minmatar ship design here, which was conducted with the same level of professionalism and neutrality found in this review.

I would also point out that the only person taking issue is you and only over a perceived slight as it pertains to his opinion of the Gallente ship design. The one taking anything from a personal angle, is yourself. Perhaps we can avoid further derailment of this topic?

~Malcolm Khross

Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-03-07 15:11:59 UTC
BloodBird wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
...the Amarrian fleet is by far the most beautiful. Minmatar ships are usually not even in the running, and most Gallente ships seem to have been designed by a species of slug. Caldari ships exude an air of utilitarian deadliness that strikes fear into the heart...



Perfectly expected from the State-apologizing Federation-hater I know you to be.

Honestly, I am eager to read your views on Federation Ship designs and technology. It will either be a hilarious or sad read, but entertaining, nonetheless.

Sepherim wrote:
After having served for years in the Imperial Navy, I can attest to the accuracy of your report. Once again, you are spot on in many of the things you say, and show a clear absence of most usual prejudices. I look forward to the two remaining parts of this report.


Sure he does. Let's see if you agree to this if Vikarion treats Republican and Federal ship designs with as much... respect, as I expect of him. IIRC those are the one's remaining now.


Wind your neck in. Vikarion-Haan has already done his post, in a most respectful tone on the Matari ships. Try to educate yourself in future.

On topic: I found this a very interesting read. I have no personal experience flying Amarr vessels and doubt I will for some time, but will bear the lessons above in mind for when I eventually do.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#17 - 2013-03-07 16:34:35 UTC
Rhiannon Dellacorte wrote:
BloodBird wrote:
*SNIP*


The Pettiest IGS Post contest isn't for another month, Birdy. This could get you disqualified.


No no no, the really PETTY stuff, such as making a mockery of someone's name, I reserve for the proper time, this is just warm-up.

Oh and by the way, Dellacorte, that's BloodBird, or BB for short, to you. Alternatively you can use my name, should I or anyone else bother to tell you what that is.

Malcolm Khross wrote:
BloodBird wrote:

Sure he does. Let's see if you agree to this if Vikarion treats Republican and Federal ship designs with as much... respect, as I expect of him. IIRC those are the one's remaining now.


Tsk, tsk.

You'll find his review of Minmatar ship design here, which was conducted with the same level of professionalism and neutrality found in this review.

I would also point out that the only person taking issue is you and only over a perceived slight as it pertains to his opinion of the Gallente ship design. The one taking anything from a personal angle, is yourself. Perhaps we can avoid further derailment of this topic?


You are fortunate Khross, to not know anyone in the Federation who spends nearly every single public message he makes taking stabs at your State, even in rather unrelated topics. I know one such person who makes stabs at my nation. It hardly ever fails to happen. I have no issue to take over the general topic of this tread because it's is well made, factually correct for the most part, and sound. Except of course, once again noting that Vikarion could not help but make another jab at us.

And then point out how interested I am in seeing his work on Federation designs and technologies, something I am genuinely looking forward to seeing.

Thank you for pointing out his previous work however, my memory failed me on this one, and the only good about that is that I get to see his assessment of his own nation's ships and tech as well.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-03-07 16:54:25 UTC
I'm mostly surprised someone can really think saying amarrian ships are more beautiful than those of the Federation is an attack of any kind. I'd recommend you'd check the databases on both ships, and you'll see the undeniable truth that the Golden Fleet is the most beautiful by far. And that's something most pilots I've talked to agree, including non-amarrians such as this case.

So I believe you are seeing specific attacks where there was none. Your hatred for captain Vikarion may have its reasons, but is clearly out of place here.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Vikarion
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-03-07 17:11:09 UTC
I'm very glad to see that my writings have brought enjoyment to most of the readers here, and you all may be assured that I have already composed and largely finished the last two articles. They are only waiting on some final editing, and will be released on schedule.

I would note that I have prefaced these articles with the qualification that they include my opinion. Those who are not interested in said opinion are perfectly free to acquire reading material elsewhere, or to skip sections they dislike. However, to be warned that a piece contains opinion from someone you dislike, and then to complain after reading it anyway, seems to be a bit of a self-inflicted injury.

Also, I should note that it's difficult to portray all possible uses of a ship or ship type in one of these articles, so I have attempted to mainly concentrate on the Empire's use of them. Otherwise, I might be forced to note that the Apocalypse is the best mining battleship, or to consider the employment of Tempests as a suicide attack ship. This would not, in and of itself, be a bad thing, but it would diverge a bit from the original subject, which is the original ship design philosophy and tactical employment of the designs.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-03-07 17:14:26 UTC
BloodBird wrote:


You are fortunate Khross, to not know anyone in the Federation who spends nearly every single public message he makes taking stabs at your State, even in rather unrelated topics.


I've actually met a few people like this, they got tired of arguing with me.

Regardless, I submit that your point is a valid one and your frustration and trepidation is understandable.

~Malcolm Khross

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