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High-Sec POS Manufacturing VS Station?
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Tiana Delorian
Ultimo Reliquis
#1 - 2013-03-05 19:01:16 UTC
A friend of mine is hell bent on setting up a POS in high-sec for the sole purpose of manufacturing, but I've had others tell me that it's better to manufacture in stations in highsec. I've tried to do some research, but can't find the solid info to explain why either one might be a better choice. Anyone?
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-03-05 19:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Styth spiting
Tiana Delorian wrote:
A friend of mine is hell bent on setting up a POS in high-sec for the sole purpose of manufacturing, but I've had others tell me that it's better to manufacture in stations in highsec. I've tried to do some research, but can't find the solid info to explain why either one might be a better choice. Anyone?


Manufacturing in a station is much better over a POS if you have access to descent station with readily available manufacturing slots.

POS's give you shorter manufacturing times, but you also need to spend the time hauling materials to the POS arrays, leaving you open to attack (both POS and hauling ship(s)) if you are in non-high sec systems. The costs for manufacturing to are quite low, considerably lower then the costs for POS fuel if you are ONLY manufacturing (no research to help cover the costs for example).

So you can pay 350m isk/month for the pos fuel, 500m + isk for data centers and other grinding for standings costs, 500m - 1B cost for the POS and arrays and have the increased chances of a wardec, deal with hauling materials to and finished products from the POS or pay the 2,000isk per manufacturing job and have the convince of not needing to move materials and finished products around and no worries of having everything destroyed.

I would suggest your friend figure out how many slots he will be manufacturing with and see how much each manufacturing job will cost to run and compare it to the cost of fuel per day (9 manufacturing jobs X (24 hours X 5,000isk hourly cost) = 1,080,000isk / day or 32,400,000isk / month. A POS will cost 11,666,666isk / day or 350,000,000isk / month.
Sir SmashAlot
The League of Extraordinary Opportunists
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#3 - 2013-03-05 19:23:16 UTC
Tiana Delorian wrote:
A friend of mine is hell bent on setting up a POS in high-sec for the sole purpose of manufacturing, but I've had others tell me that it's better to manufacture in stations in highsec. I've tried to do some research, but can't find the solid info to explain why either one might be a better choice. Anyone?



A high sec POS is best used for cooking blueprints and invention. Slots for ME, PE, copying, and invention are not provided in large enough volumes to satisfy demand so the queues are very large. So being able to research quickly, and on demand is a good trade off for the cost of fuel and added risk of putting assets in space.

For manufacturing there is so many available manufacturing slots for super cheap that the queues are very short if not always open depending on where you live. The advantage with manufacturing at a POS will be a slight increase in the amount of production volume.

The increase in production volume is only worth it assuming you can keep your production slots running 24/7 with very little idle time and what you produce sells for a stable margin. Even with the manufacturing speed bonus if you manage more than ~30 slots you will find it is easier to keep your manufacturing in station as splitting up assets to build stuff between manufacturing arrays is a pain in the ass compared to storing infinite assets in bulk in a corp hanger in an NPC station. Not to mention your tower will be eating up fuel.

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Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#4 - 2013-03-05 21:53:55 UTC
Your friend wants to waste money on a toy. Let him. And while you're at it, piggyback his spare research slots for free while he loses money on fuel.

Some first-hand PI tips
Bud Austrene
Secure Haven
#5 - 2013-03-06 21:21:43 UTC
Kodama Ikari wrote:
Your friend wants to waste money on a toy. Let him. And while you're at it, piggyback his spare research slots for free while he loses money on fuel.


Seems like the right thing to do to me.

Yes I am an alt. I see no reason to make it easy for bullies and greifers

Ginger Barbarella
#6 - 2013-03-06 21:40:19 UTC
Tiana Delorian wrote:
A friend of mine is hell bent on setting up a POS in high-sec for the sole purpose of manufacturing, but I've had others tell me that it's better to manufacture in stations in highsec. I've tried to do some research, but can't find the solid info to explain why either one might be a better choice. Anyone?


Math. Calculate your costs (ACTUAL costs) to build a sample of good at a station of your choice using your real-world play time in the calculation. Next, calculate your POS costs (initial + defenses + monthly upkeep) ACTUAL costs (do you do your own PI for non-ice products? And ice products? Buy your own fuel blocks). Compare. Make decision.

For the products I manufacture (rigs, T2 stuff [no ships] ) given my alts, skills, and knowledge of how to do market research, having high sec POS' works for me, and I profit nicely on a monthly basis.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2013-03-07 01:53:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
If you make 100k isk per hour, then running a small POS to manufacture in, with a single equipment assembly array becomes economically viable. (running 6 slots) (short version. Costs are around 22k isk an hour per slot. If you're making 100k isk/hr in station, you'll manufacture at 133k isk/hr in the POS)

Your costs go up, but your production goes up by 33% (due to the 0.75 multiplier)

And a small pos can support more than a single Array. If you have more requirements, it scales up to medium then large.

People are right, however, that it's more logistically complex. (you have to ship materials out). And you have a higher risk (being ganked, mostly. Not a /huge/ risk)

And being wardecced.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Eric Raeder
No Fee Too High
#8 - 2013-03-07 04:37:06 UTC
I do manufacturing in my POS, but only because I need the POS for copy slots. Unless you are making large ships, manufacturing arrays take up much lower cpu requirements than labs, so setting up several manufacturing arrays does not inhibit my copy abilities much. If I didn't need the labs, no way would I bother with POS manufacturing.

I do disagree with the player above who said you need a POS to do invention or PE research. No wait invention slots are available all over the place in highsec. PE slots are a little harder, but if you poke around in less popular regions you can find unused PE slots as well. The only things you really need a POS for are copy slots and ME research.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#9 - 2013-03-07 05:21:40 UTC
Every hour that you aren't using every available slot on a hisec POS is money you're pouring down the drain. Doing the same work through NPC facilities is much more forgiving for those days that you just don't want to log in and adjust research & manufacturing jobs.

On the other hand, maybe your friend wants to play with POSes to figure out how they work, learn the vagaries of the corporate roles & permissions system and so forth. This is a worthwhile endeavour.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#10 - 2013-03-07 16:47:06 UTC
A large POS can have around 70 slots assuming a mix of array types. That would require 7 pilots to use them all up. The cost of running that POS is 350 million a month. That comes to 7000 ISK per hour per slot. Due to the increased speed, its equivalent to 5000 an hour. High sec stations are alot cheaper.

Note that if you did all ammo arrays this drops to 1500 ISK per hour, which is closer to high sec station rates. However that is 50 ammo arrays, sufficient to dive you absolute bat raving nuts.

However, piggybacking an ammo array on a POS that's used mainly for blueprint work can make sense.

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#11 - 2013-03-07 20:18:16 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
A large POS can have around 70 slots assuming a mix of array types. That would require 7 pilots to use them all up. The cost of running that POS is 350 million a month. That comes to 7000 ISK per hour per slot. Due to the increased speed, its equivalent to 5000 an hour. High sec stations are alot cheaper.

Note that if you did all ammo arrays this drops to 1500 ISK per hour, which is closer to high sec station rates. However that is 50 ammo arrays, sufficient to dive you absolute bat raving nuts.

However, piggybacking an ammo array on a POS that's used mainly for blueprint work can make sense.



Except that the slots all run 33% faster.

If your market can absorb that volume, then it's certainly worth it.


As for people complaining about moving stuff in freighters in crowded POS, it's not that hard to reorganise the POS to make it easier. (if it's all yours).

Have a component assembly array positioned in the middle in front of a wall of assembly arrays.drop all your materials into that.

Then just move materials from it to the arrays, while maving around in a smaller, more nimble ship. a blockade runner can make sense here (for getting the constructed stuff, if you're not making T1 goods) you can move stuff directly between arrays, rather than moving it into your cargo first.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter