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Ammo sizes?

First post
Author
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-02-18 13:19:53 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
In the 20th century they had this amazing stuff that allowed them to fire chickens of varying sizes all with the same barrel. It's called stryrofoam.
I know its far-fetched to think they would have this kind of advanced technology in the distant future, though.P

Yes, think APDS/APFSDS rounds, where actual projectile caliber is (much) smaller than that of the barrel it travels through. Actually also explains the gun's damage multiplier, because bigger guns can use bigger proppelant charges.
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#22 - 2013-02-18 15:04:01 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:

Sorry but as a person that is settled in engineering this is not a satisfactory explanation.


As a person also settled in engineering, I'm perfectly happy with the explanation. We already know ships in Eve can rapidly create complex structures using nanotechnology. Hell, how many centimetres of armour plating does our ship reconstruct with every cycle of an armour rep? For that matter, how are massive starships built so fast from raw materials?

This explanation makes perfect sense for lasers, makes perfect sense for hybrids (which turn the entire ammo slug into plasma anyway, so it doesn't matter what size it was before), and sounds so last-minute-force-it-to-fit that it just HAS to be how Minmatar do it.

And slapping a warhead to a stockpile of missile fuselages makes perfect sense to me as well.

You need to remember that the various corporations in New Eden are concerned with maximizing profit and minimizing cost, so if they can put out a single product line that works for all ships, regardless of gun caliber, they're set for life.

tl;dr nanites make everything better.
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#23 - 2013-02-18 18:38:38 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Louella Dougans wrote:

what I had thought, was that the ammunition you buy, is warheads, not the entire shell.
The ship carries numerous cartridges for the guns that it uses, and assembles the warhead onto the shell, before firing.
which would explain how guns of 3 different sizes take the same ammunition.
Also works for missiles too. The launcher system screws a warhead onto the missile body, then fires the assembled missile.

Sorry but as a person that is settled in engineering this is not a satisfactory explanation.


Why not ?

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/

Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-02-18 20:06:09 UTC
Details... Okay, I'm going to go all theoretical for a moment, but bear with me. After reading the item descriptions again, I think I've come up with a basic theory for how each of these systems work.

Hybrid Charges consist of a titanium shell around a core of atoms contained within what is likely a magnetic field inside the shell powered by a small capacitor charged on launch.

When fired in a railgun, a portion of the energy used in the acceleration of the charge is fed into the canister to superheat the contained atoms and convert them into a suspended plasma... or perhaps to generate them in the case of antimatter. Then the entire shell is hurled out in a sabot manufactured by the gun itself. On impact, the containment vessel fails releasing the contained plasma in a burst that causes massive damage.

In the case of blasters, the entire shell is converted into plasma and hurled out the barrel at high speed. There are a number of ways this could be done, my personal favorite being a limited antimatter release into the firing chamber. As it is not a contained charge being fired, the plasma rapidly dissipates resulting in extremely poor range and rapid energy falloff.

Standard Projectile Ammunition is a bit trickier, as autocannons fire bursts of shots that consume only one unit of ammunition while artillery fires only one shell. The idea that the ammo represents warheads that are mounted onto cartridges manufactured by the gun's module itself is an attractive one, but how we go from one shell for artillery to a burst of shots for autocannons leaves a bit to be desired. It's possible that artillery fires a canister of multiple warheads I suppose.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-02-19 05:35:18 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:

Sorry but as a person that is settled in engineering this is not a satisfactory explanation.


As a person also settled in engineering, I'm perfectly happy with the explanation. We already know ships in Eve can rapidly create complex structures using nanotechnology. Hell, how many centimetres of armour plating does our ship reconstruct with every cycle of an armour rep? For that matter, how are massive starships built so fast from raw materials?

This explanation makes perfect sense for lasers, makes perfect sense for hybrids (which turn the entire ammo slug into plasma anyway, so it doesn't matter what size it was before), and sounds so last-minute-force-it-to-fit that it just HAS to be how Minmatar do it.

And slapping a warhead to a stockpile of missile fuselages makes perfect sense to me as well.

You need to remember that the various corporations in New Eden are concerned with maximizing profit and minimizing cost, so if they can put out a single product line that works for all ships, regardless of gun caliber, they're set for life.

tl;dr nanites make everything better.


You make me happy. Big smile
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-02-19 14:49:15 UTC
Blasters and lasers don't need to worry about this problem because they're not firing an actual round, and railguns would work regardless of the diameter of the shot (so, the difference in size is probably translated into how fast the round is going, not how big it is) so the only ones for which this is a problem are projectile weapons.

In the real world, when a round is fired from a gun that is of a larger caliber than the round itself, the difference is compensated for with a sabot. given that this is probably some kind of ultra-advanced futuristic caseless ammo, I don't think it's too hard to imagine them having self-assembling sabots that allow them to fit-all-sizes, with again the larger guns translating into a higher muzzle velocity.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#27 - 2013-02-19 17:00:13 UTC
I always imagined blasters as just ripping out all the plasma from the centre of a shell and expelling the depleted casing like a giant shotgun shell. Railguns just drop the whole shell into a mass accelerator and fling at things. Lasers are crystals so yeah I doubt there's much issue with sizing there.

Projectiles, I tend to agree with Stitcher, they probably have some sort of rapidly assembling sabot casing that's constructed as the weapon reloads, probably with some sort of rapidly hardening foam and nanite mixture.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2013-02-20 21:28:55 UTC
The warhead that is fired through a barrel must have the diameter of the Caliber. so you will not fire a 1200 mm artillery shell through a 1400 mm caliber barrel and vice versa.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-02-21 00:20:34 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
The warhead that is fired through a barrel must have the diameter of the Caliber. so you will not fire a 1200 mm artillery shell through a 1400 mm caliber barrel and vice versa.

Not necessarily, there is, you see, this nifty device called a sabot... For example the modern 120mm main gun on the M1 Abrams firing APFSDS ammunition is firing a shell that's not 120mm in diameter, but usually between 30-40mm in diameter... the rest of the chamber is filled with a casing that falls off.
mai Talie-Kuo
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-02-24 20:07:20 UTC
The way I always looked at weapon ammo is that we are not carrying. Completed rounds with is. Its more like we are carrying the components that are rapidly assembled when the gun is loaded. That would in my mind count for how different guns use the samessamesIze ammo. And how we are able to carry so many rounds.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#31 - 2013-02-25 09:49:18 UTC
Maybe the millimetre measurement is just the length of the guns chamber and the ammo comes shaped like sausage and you just slice the length you need depending on the gun.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#32 - 2013-03-05 06:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Shamus O'Reilly
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Che Biko wrote:
In the 20th century they had this amazing stuff that allowed them to fire chickens of varying sizes all with the same barrel. It's called stryrofoam.
I know its far-fetched to think they would have this kind of advanced technology in the distant future, though.P

Yes, think APDS/APFSDS rounds, where actual projectile caliber is (much) smaller than that of the barrel it travels through. Actually also explains the gun's damage multiplier, because bigger guns can use bigger proppelant charges.

Since when do railguns use a propellant charge to fire?...

Unless youre considering electromagnetism as a form of propellant that can scale to this idea... Though in that sense even the smallest weapons platform for rails could use the same amount of energy as capital weapons.

In fact i believe the only theoretical weapon in game is the blasters Shocked (seeing as the USAF has published the fitting of LAMS onto fighters irl)

Edit: Though the usage of autocannons in space... i would love an explanation for this... as conventional projectile propellants MUST have oxygen to explode and well.... propel...




I've always thought of it as this:

You're using the standard/faction T1 ammunition therefore the packages you buy can be used in both weapons as all ammunition types for say large guns come together in a bulk package. No offense but a 1400mm artillery projectile would not cause such damage in comparison to an 800mm if the 800mm projectile is fitted into a propellant sleeve for the 1400mm.

It would just punch through more easily and keep on going (also the explosive type, thermic, etc would not be as effective as there is less room in the shell at the tip than the 1400). On the other hand the 1400mm would well.... pack a punch as it was the correct size ammo type for the gun... and still keep on going Cool

800mm hole vs 1400mm hole + damage type... you can do the math. Velocity would not play a major factor if both have the proper force to apply to shields/armor/hull. It would all come down to the shell size and type


I'd rather agree to someone's previous comment of nanopacks. This far into the future one can assume autoloading mechanisms could easily include nanites into the operation, larger shells taking longer times to load and fire. Fit the proper shell type in the tip and voila insta-shell.

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."

Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-03-05 18:24:01 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Louella Dougans wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Here's a thought: when you buy ammo, you aren't actually buying a full shell, you are buying a nano-pack along with various rare materials. On your ship, raw (essentially free) materials like iron and sulfur and etc are then provided to the nano-packs, which then assemble the shells in the loading queue, using the raw materials and the rare materials/components included with the nano-pack. Since an autocannon fires a few shells with each shot, and an artillery cannon fires one large shell, the nano-pack for each is essentially the same size for a certain size class of gun.

How's that?


what I had thought, was that the ammunition you buy, is warheads, not the entire shell.

The ship carries numerous cartridges for the guns that it uses, and assembles the warhead onto the shell, before firing.

which would explain how guns of 3 different sizes take the same ammunition.


Also works for missiles too. The launcher system screws a warhead onto the missile body, then fires the assembled missile.




Sorry but as a person that is settled in engineering this is not a satisfactory explanation.

::Puts hands over ears:: LA LA LA LA LA Smile
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-03-05 19:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Shamus O'Reilly wrote:
*snip*

Edit: Though the usage of autocannons in space... i would love an explanation for this... as conventional projectile propellants MUST have oxygen to explode and well.... propel...

There are multiple propellant types that do not require oxygen available even nowadays. As a matter of fact, even the most common black gunpowder does not require oxygen as it carries both fuel and the oxidizer for the reaction, hence can be used in oxygen-less environments or (technically) even vacuum.

Shamus O'Reilly wrote:
I've always thought of it as this:

You're using the standard/faction T1 ammunition therefore the packages you buy can be used in both weapons as all ammunition types for say large guns come together in a bulk package. No offense but a 1400mm artillery projectile would not cause such damage in comparison to an 800mm if the 800mm projectile is fitted into a propellant sleeve for the 1400mm.

It would just punch through more easily and keep on going (also the explosive type, thermic, etc would not be as effective as there is less room in the shell at the tip than the 1400). On the other hand the 1400mm would well.... pack a punch as it was the correct size ammo type for the gun... and still keep on going Cool

800mm hole vs 1400mm hole + damage type... you can do the math. Velocity would not play a major factor if both have the proper force to apply to shields/armor/hull. It would all come down to the shell size and type


I'd rather agree to someone's previous comment of nanopacks. This far into the future one can assume autoloading mechanisms could easily include nanites into the operation, larger shells taking longer times to load and fire. Fit the proper shell type in the tip and voila insta-shell.

Yes, there is some inconsistency in the use of sabot. I, personally, prefer the nano-assembled rounds as well. This would also explain how ships' bonus can influence the performance of the guns that are fitted on it (f.ex. assembly lines tailored to projectile shells increase reloading time of projectile weapons).
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#35 - 2013-03-05 20:03:11 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Shamus O'Reilly wrote:
*snip*

Edit: Though the usage of autocannons in space... i would love an explanation for this... as conventional projectile propellants MUST have oxygen to explode and well.... propel...

There are multiple propellant types that do not require oxygen available even nowadays. As a matter of fact, even the most common black gunpowder does not require oxygen as it carries both fuel and the oxidizer for the reaction, hence can be used in oxygen-less environments or (technically) even vacuum.

Shamus O'Reilly wrote:
I've always thought of it as this:

You're using the standard/faction T1 ammunition therefore the packages you buy can be used in both weapons as all ammunition types for say large guns come together in a bulk package. No offense but a 1400mm artillery projectile would not cause such damage in comparison to an 800mm if the 800mm projectile is fitted into a propellant sleeve for the 1400mm.

It would just punch through more easily and keep on going (also the explosive type, thermic, etc would not be as effective as there is less room in the shell at the tip than the 1400). On the other hand the 1400mm would well.... pack a punch as it was the correct size ammo type for the gun... and still keep on going Cool

800mm hole vs 1400mm hole + damage type... you can do the math. Velocity would not play a major factor if both have the proper force to apply to shields/armor/hull. It would all come down to the shell size and type


I'd rather agree to someone's previous comment of nanopacks. This far into the future one can assume autoloading mechanisms could easily include nanites into the operation, larger shells taking longer times to load and fire. Fit the proper shell type in the tip and voila insta-shell.

Yes, there is some inconsistency in the use of sabot. I, personally, prefer the nano-assembled rounds as well. This would also explain how ships' bonus can influence the performance of the guns that are fitted on it (f.ex. assembly lines tailored to projectile shells increase reloading time of projectile weapons).

I can understand that cartridges use oxidizers to initiate the combustion cycle. The issue is is that all explosions use outside air to continue. This is the difference between a puff of smoke and a bang in most cases. Unless the autocannon ammo/artillery ammo in EVE have such amount/type of oxidizer that creates such potential energy behind the projectile that it works i cannot see it working well.

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."

LOL56
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#36 - 2013-03-05 20:18:27 UTC
Plenty of modern ammunition operates perfectly and repeatably in a zero oxygen atmosphere, or in a vacuum, because they have all the oxygen they need to react to completion in the propellent mixture. It doesn't even seem unlikely that this same sort of propellent mix is used for spaceship ammunition.
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#37 - 2013-03-05 20:30:22 UTC
LOL56 wrote:
Plenty of modern ammunition operates perfectly and repeatably in a zero oxygen atmosphere, or in a vacuum, because they have all the oxygen they need to react to completion in the propellent mixture. It doesn't even seem unlikely that this same sort of propellent mix is used for spaceship ammunition.

Then we sit at the factor that sabot does not fit well into the lore at the damage side and that blasters are still a theoretical weapon Cool

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."

Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-03-06 06:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Shamus O'Reilly wrote:
*snip*
I can understand that cartridges use oxidizers to initiate the combustion cycle. The issue is is that all explosions use outside air to continue. This is the difference between a puff of smoke and a bang in most cases. Unless the autocannon ammo/artillery ammo in EVE have such amount/type of oxidizer that creates such potential energy behind the projectile that it works i cannot see it working well.

The only type of high-explosive weapon that uses external air as oxidizer are the thermobaric bomb types. The rest carry their own oxidizer compounds with them. Inluding the most common types of explosives, TNT, C-4, nitroglicerin and all of the derivatives/alikes.
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