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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-03-05 20:23:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0

That doesn't sound broken to you?

Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#102 - 2013-03-05 20:29:59 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0

That doesn't sound broken to you?

Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it.


Doubt many would pass up the chance of building where they live, instead of the current method. Having to do logistics in deep null can be a pain.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-03-05 20:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0

That doesn't sound broken to you?

Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it.


Doubt many would pass up the chance of building where they live, instead of the current method. Having to do logistics in deep null can be a pain.

I too doubt many would pass it up, but that isn't all. And taking advantage of all the game has to offer isn't exactly a ubiquitous attribute amongst the players.

None of that was to say that I think those who want to make use of it should be unable to or penalized for doing so as now. Just that likely even if nullsec industry were corrected we'd still have people making that same or similar statements.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#104 - 2013-03-05 20:36:32 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:

Sov null inherently has the highest risk and investment cost out of all areas. The only reason it is considered "safer" is due to player interaction(intel channels, scouts, etc). For example I can leave my stuff in npc null station and go away for 1 week and not have to worry. If I leave it in a Sov null station, there is a chance I could lose access to it within the same week. Lets not mention the billions required to maintain SOV in said systems which can be attacked.


Sov null inherently can be made safe(r). Effort or not the result is that it becomes safe(r).

NPC null cannot do that, so it's riskier. I have been in both, the risk can't even be vaguely compared.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#105 - 2013-03-05 20:44:19 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Sov null inherently can be made safe(r). Effort or not the result is that it becomes safe(r).

NPC null cannot do that, so it's riskier. I have been in both, the risk can't even be vaguely compared.


NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2013-03-05 20:52:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]
NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations.


Except the "exact same tools" such as limiting station access, cyno jammers, jump bridges to let you get ahead of invaders, clone services, repair services, access to market, etc.
LOL56
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#107 - 2013-03-05 20:52:36 UTC
It should be innately the worst in the game, nearly nonexistent, literately just belts and whatever stations are or are not around, but sov and station upgrades should be able to to MAKE it into the best by a good margin. T1 production for local needs, at the very least, should occur primary on site, as opposed to shipping every last round of ammunition, drone, book, hull, implants and everything else from Jita. Don't get me wrong, if you want a T2 hull or a set of HG implants, Jita should still be the place to go, but for a few hundred thousand cruises missiles or a dozen thrashers, local production should rule.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#108 - 2013-03-05 20:53:13 UTC
Primary Me wrote:
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done


It has to be better than empire. In order for someone to be convinced to move their industry operations from The Forge to someplace 40-80 jumps away which will be difficult to get to, transport materials to and from and need to be defended.

.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2013-03-05 21:00:04 UTC
When I'd fly from Jel to 6qbh in stain (roughly 60 jumps) I'd find more danger from the last 3 jumps of NPC null as well as the small 2 lowsec system hop (Gondista) than I would through the 18-30 jumps through SOV space (Test and Tribal).

Just me, flying through, no scout, no protection.

Sov is not more dangerous. Even for a trespasser. Not to mention those who are saying THEIR sov space is riskier....

Please.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#110 - 2013-03-05 21:09:54 UTC
No More Heroes wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done


It has to be better than empire. In order for someone to be convinced to move their industry operations from The Forge to someplace 40-80 jumps away which will be difficult to get to, transport materials to and from and need to be defended.

Welp, I guess it's doomed then, since highsec must be the best or at most only a small smidgen behind in order to avoid MASS HIGHSEC UNSUBS.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#111 - 2013-03-05 21:47:13 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0

That doesn't sound broken to you?

Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it.

Not to mention that any given Caldari highsec system on any given day probably has more people in space than whatever nullsec region you want to look at.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#112 - 2013-03-05 21:53:40 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]
NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations.


Except the "exact same tools" such as limiting station access, cyno jammers, jump bridges to let you get ahead of invaders, clone services, repair services, access to market, etc.


None of those things matter, all you need is intel.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#113 - 2013-03-05 21:55:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Sov null inherently can be made safe(r). Effort or not the result is that it becomes safe(r).

NPC null cannot do that, so it's riskier. I have been in both, the risk can't even be vaguely compared.


NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations.


Sure, I recall how secure it was to go to, dock and then undock off the central hub in the 2 NPC null sec regions I have been. It "just" involved having to always bring 20 carriers and supporting fleet and removing the double bubbles people every time.

I also recall how secure it was to fly L4 missions 2 jumps away, there were just 40 neutrals or reds off several warring alliances in local at any given hour of the day.

When I was in sov null sec (once as owner, once as renter) intel chat and a scout were the maximum needed to roam for 5-6 systems, the danger would eventually come from WHs not from the nearby null sec systems.


Keep trying convincing easily impressed randoms who read this forum, it does not work with me.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#114 - 2013-03-05 21:55:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]
NPC null can use the exact same tools as sov null to make it just as secure but with the added bonus of never losing access to the stations.

Except the "exact same tools" such as limiting station access, cyno jammers, jump bridges to let you get ahead of invaders, clone services, repair services, access to market, etc.


None of those things matter, all you need is intel.

Nerf local.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#115 - 2013-03-05 21:55:43 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0

That doesn't sound broken to you?

Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it.

Not to mention that any given Caldari highsec system on any given day probably has more people in space than whatever nullsec region you want to look at.


VFK sees more traffic and trade than most high sec systems.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#116 - 2013-03-05 21:56:03 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
When I'd fly from Jel to 6qbh in stain (roughly 60 jumps) I'd find more danger from the last 3 jumps of NPC null as well as the small 2 lowsec system hop (Gondista) than I would through the 18-30 jumps through SOV space (Test and Tribal).

Just me, flying through, no scout, no protection.

Sov is not more dangerous. Even for a trespasser. Not to mention those who are saying THEIR sov space is riskier....

Please.


Exactly. One of those NPC null sec areas I have lived was exactly Stain, around 5J.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#117 - 2013-03-05 21:57:26 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0

That doesn't sound broken to you?

Doesn't null require infrastructure be built by players? I'll grant you that the current capacities available are lacking, but in the end we will still likely have that issue even if the capacity issue is corrected because not all entities will likely be interested in investing in it.


You can literally spend a trillion ISK and not have a region with more slots than the best hi-sec systems.

Let's reverse the situation: imagine that it cost a trillion ISK to rent the same hi-sec slot capacity as could be obtained in a single 0.0 system. Would that be OK with you?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#118 - 2013-03-05 21:59:02 UTC
Whim Aqayn wrote:
Yes, nullsec industry should be > hi sec industry.

At the same time nullsec industry needs to be much less safe than it currently is. Additionally there should be resources which are only available in lowsec and hisec respectively.


I have used my magical time machine to make both of those things happen. Job done.

Now let's get on with the rebalance.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#119 - 2013-03-05 22:03:01 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Sure, I recall how secure it was to go to, dock and then undock off the central hub in the 2 NPC null sec regions I have been. It "just" involved having to always bring 20 carriers and supporting fleet and removing the double bubbles people every time.

I also recall how secure it was to fly L4 missions 2 jumps away, there were just 40 neutrals or reds off several warring alliances in local at any given hour of the day.

When I was in sov null sec (once as owner, once as renter) intel chat and a scout were the maximum needed to roam for 5-6 systems, the danger would eventually come from WHs not from the nearby null sec systems.


Keep trying convincing easily impressed randoms who read this forum, it does not work with me.


Just because you sucked at securing your NPC space doesn't mean my corp and many others didn't manage it.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#120 - 2013-03-05 22:04:30 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Whim Aqayn wrote:
Yes, nullsec industry should be > hi sec industry.

At the same time nullsec industry needs to be much less safe than it currently is. Additionally there should be resources which are only available in lowsec and hisec respectively.

I have used my magical time machine to make both of those things happen. Job done.

Now let's get on with the rebalance.

We need to buff highsec industry more. And make it safer.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?