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Scanner probe control

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Remnant Madeveda
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-03-05 16:30:19 UTC
In terms of less clicking I'd be more in favor of them allowing a hotkey to active the dscan as opposed to making it any sort of automated.
Hakan MacTrew
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-03-05 16:51:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
Remnant Madeveda wrote:
In terms of less clicking I'd be more in favor of them allowing a hotkey to active the dscan as opposed to making it any sort of automated.

I agree with this, as well as the hotkey for the "Analyze" function in the scanner window.

Automation is a slippery slope. I imagine its the same reason that you dont recomence firing at targets when you have reloaded your weapons.

Edit:
Also, any chance of making the 'flat' 3D arrows for each probe a bit thicker, or maybe cylindrical?

And a way to remove some of the text on the map would be great.

Friends
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#23 - 2013-03-05 17:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
Here are my suggestions for improving scanning/probing:

1) Make it easier to center on probes or anomalies.

2) Cut down on some of the wasted space in the scan window (e.g. take a look at all the wasted space near the scan sites / filters tabs). ArrowThis is a general suggestion I have for improving the EVE UI: Every tiny bit of space counts, and there are A LOT of areas of wasted space in the UI which could be streamlined. Resizing and cutting out little parts here and there makes a huge difference and takes less coding than re-doing entire parts of the UI.

3) Add a "deploy all" option for deploying probes?

4) Add easier ways to trade our publish saved locations. Currently, you have to create a contract or jettison bookmarks. I'd like to be able to post saved located--say, in chat--and have people warp directly to them. If there is an obvious problem with this, I'll retract it, but I'm not yet seeing one...


Also, I've always wondered this: If my probes can warp to selected parts of space via the solar system map, why can't I? Would this break the game? Would certainly make setting up safe spots easier.
Siobhan MacLeary
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-03-05 17:39:30 UTC
Remnant Madeveda wrote:
I am a scanner I know the difference, and as a heads up, while in Null the standard rule is click D-scan as soon as you can every time you can if you are concerned with people being in space with you. It's no different than W-space in this respect. You are spamming D-scan every 10 or so seconds, and no we don't need an auto-dscan it makes the game too easy.


Have you ever sat in a cloaky T3 on-grid with your corpmates who're busy mining, and all you're doing is overwatch via d-scan? You'd sacrifice your soul for any kind of automatic dscan ping.

I do think that anyone being able to ping dscan every 10 seconds just as a matter of course would be kind of dumb - maybe set it up so the auto-ping repeats at 15 seconds stock, and every level of Astrometrics reduces dscan autoping time by 1 second. Thus at level 5 you'd be pinging every 10s but as a noob you'd be pinging every 15 seconds - which means that Astrometrics V gives you a slight advantage while not screwing over the noobie in lowsec simply because he has low skills.

As for the other suggestions regarding scanning: alt+scroll expanding/contracting probes is a great idea, please do this.

Automatic geometric setups or presets? Oh yes please. Maybe link it to your Astrometrics skill - not by the time it takes to set up, but how perfect your shape is. At Astrometics 1 it'd be recognizable as a given shape, but rather inaccurate as though it were drawn freehand. Astrometrics V would give you a laser-cut-accurate 3D geometric shape for your probes.

Here's a hint to good design in regards to EVE: Introduce as few new skills for new functionality as possible. Astrometrics and other scanning skills already exist, so it's better to link new functionality to them than to add in more skills for just one or two uses. It's also important to make sure that having a maxed skill gives an edge over no/just trained skill, while not being out of balance. EVE is a game where minor things - like 5 seconds on an autoping or the accuracy of a computationally assembled 3D shape - can confer a large advantage while not having that advantage doesn't screw you over.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#25 - 2013-03-05 18:44:29 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Edit:
Also, any chance of making the 'flat' 3D arrows for each probe a bit thicker, or maybe cylindrical?

And a way to remove some of the text on the map would be great.


HELL YES!
most of the time you end up looking at the narrow side of the arrows.

you can reduce the text shown in the solarsystem map to some degree but i made the experience that every patch it somehow gets messed up again.

Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:

Make it easier to center on probes or anomalies.


im all for that too. let me center on my probes by double clinking on their names in the list of the scanner window. double clicking them in the 3D view only works half the time, because some stupid planet or belt seems to be more important.



another question:
sometimes the probes are linked with green lines, making it easy to spot the center of all probes. most of the times, this lines are missing though. is their any way to have control over whether the lines are shown or not?
Hakan MacTrew
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-03-06 06:06:40 UTC
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:
Remnant Madeveda wrote:
I am a scanner I know the difference, and as a heads up, while in Null the standard rule is click D-scan as soon as you can every time you can if you are concerned with people being in space with you. It's no different than W-space in this respect. You are spamming D-scan every 10 or so seconds, and no we don't need an auto-dscan it makes the game too easy.


Have you ever sat in a cloaky T3 on-grid with your corpmates who're busy mining, and all you're doing is overwatch via d-scan? You'd sacrifice your soul for any kind of automatic dscan ping.

I do think that anyone being able to ping dscan every 10 seconds just as a matter of course would be kind of dumb - maybe set it up so the auto-ping repeats at 15 seconds stock, and every level of Astrometrics reduces dscan autoping time by 1 second. Thus at level 5 you'd be pinging every 10s but as a noob you'd be pinging every 15 seconds - which means that Astrometrics V gives you a slight advantage while not screwing over the noobie in lowsec simply because he has low skills.

As for the other suggestions regarding scanning: alt+scroll expanding/contracting probes is a great idea, please do this.

Automatic geometric setups or presets? Oh yes please. Maybe link it to your Astrometrics skill - not by the time it takes to set up, but how perfect your shape is. At Astrometics 1 it'd be recognizable as a given shape, but rather inaccurate as though it were drawn freehand. Astrometrics V would give you a laser-cut-accurate 3D geometric shape for your probes.

Here's a hint to good design in regards to EVE: Introduce as few new skills for new functionality as possible. Astrometrics and other scanning skills already exist, so it's better to link new functionality to them than to add in more skills for just one or two uses. It's also important to make sure that having a maxed skill gives an edge over no/just trained skill, while not being out of balance. EVE is a game where minor things - like 5 seconds on an autoping or the accuracy of a computationally assembled 3D shape - can confer a large advantage while not having that advantage doesn't screw you over.

I haven't done it in a T3, but I do do it in a Falcon. Does that count?

And again, automation is the enemy. Its really not hard to click a button every few seconds. Even better if they add a hotkey option. Is there something else you would rather be doing? You are supposed to be watching the D-scan after all.

Friends
Siobhan MacLeary
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-03-06 07:35:23 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

I haven't done it in a T3, but I do do it in a Falcon. Does that count?

And again, automation is the enemy. Its really not hard to click a button every few seconds. Even better if they add a hotkey option. Is there something else you would rather be doing? You are supposed to be watching the D-scan after all.


I'd rather not get carpal tunnel, if that's what you're asking.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.” - CCP Soundwave
darmwand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-03-06 12:21:24 UTC
Maybe to counter these improvements probing time could be increased? That would mean less clicking around for the probers but would still allow mission runners to do their thing.

On that note (disclaimer, I'm an evil pirate) I might actually be in favour of making probing harder, if only to attract more mission runners to dangerous areas.

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#29 - 2013-03-06 13:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvia Nardieu
darmwand wrote:
Maybe to counter these improvements probing time could be increased? That would mean less clicking around for the probers but would still allow mission runners to do their thing.

On that note (disclaimer, I'm an evil pirate) I might actually be in favour of making probing harder, if only to attract more mission runners to dangerous areas.


TBH, probing needs some more improvements, not restrictions. Most of the suggestions made are really good (thick arrows, please!) but one I would put real high on priority list would be the ability to save probe configurations (not a fan of pre-made solutions, so no automatic ones I'd say). Realistically, the activity of positioning probes doesn't really influence one's ability to scan down stuff (which has much more to do with astrometrics skills, implants and knowledge/experience in the art of scanning) while at the same time it is a source of frustration thanks to the repetitveness and UI issues already pointed in this thread (labels preventing probe manipulation, arrows being basically 2D etc.).

There is no need to extend probing times since people who know what to look for will be hard to catch as it is, and those who don't will be equally easy prey. Also, depending on some external factors, probes can only be visible for 5-15 seconds max. and you really have to SPAM that D to notice those.
darmwand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-03-06 13:27:07 UTC
Hmm true, the interface's clumsiness shouldn't be what keeps mission runners alive so any improvements to that (such as probe layout presets) would be nice. The thing that makes me say that maybe probing should be harder (not interface-wise but in some other way) are statements like

Olleybear wrote:
[The number of low-sec mission runners] all went downhill within a month or so when the initial probing changes first hit and ship scanning in mission rooms became much much easier. Afterall, scanning down a multiple bilion isk ship in less than 30 seconds in a mission that took 20 minutes and more to run is not only unprofitable for the mission runner, it is suicide.


(from this thread).

I.e., if that poster is right then making it harder to probe down ships might help revitalize low-sec. Then again it might not, I'm mostly just throwing around (other people's) ideas here Smile

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
Absolon Echerie
Roving Guns Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#31 - 2013-03-12 13:36:44 UTC
darmwand wrote:
Hmm true, the interface's clumsiness shouldn't be what keeps mission runners alive so any improvements to that (such as probe layout presets) would be nice. The thing that makes me say that maybe probing should be harder (not interface-wise but in some other way) are statements like

Olleybear wrote:
[The number of low-sec mission runners] all went downhill within a month or so when the initial probing changes first hit and ship scanning in mission rooms became much much easier. Afterall, scanning down a multiple bilion isk ship in less than 30 seconds in a mission that took 20 minutes and more to run is not only unprofitable for the mission runner, it is suicide.


(from this thread).

I.e., if that poster is right then making it harder to probe down ships might help revitalize low-sec. Then again it might not, I'm mostly just throwing around (other people's) ideas here Smile



wouldn't it be a solution to this to only give you the ability to save geometrical configs on core probes?

anyways i really like some suggestions. also as someone else stated, sometimes you see the green lines from the probes that makes it easy to center it on an anomaly, but in most cases these lines just don't render, making it easier to miss
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#32 - 2013-03-12 16:49:11 UTC
Thelonious Blake wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Even nicer, a quick option that moves the selected probes to useful geometric configurations.

ie: if you select 4 probes, they get moved to form an equilateral tetrahedron.


I've seen your idea proposed in the forums before. It was beaten down (or trolled maybe?) with some arguments that it will make scanning too easy Lol though this made be think... I know people who, piloting a T3 cruiser, can scan you down with 1-2 moves of the probes, which can take roughly 15-20 seconds, all this given they have rough idea of where you curently are. If this change is implemented the time to scan you down will be even less (<15s?).

I personally would welcome such quick predefined geometric positioning of the probes.

+1, skilled hunters will probe you in 1- 2 scan, because the starting range of their probes will be really low, cause they already pinpointed a small area of space you are in using d-scan first, with probes already launched out of your scan range and ready to scan the area.

a skilled hunter will probe you down with combat probes on your dscan for less than 15 sec provided you are in cruiser or bigger

or will use regular probes if he think you are running a sig, to avoid scaring you with thoses scary scary combat probes Pirate
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#33 - 2013-03-12 16:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Thelonious Blake wrote:
Remnant Madeveda wrote:
The D-Scan is your friend.


What I tried to say is that with the current mechanics you have to CLICK the D-Scan every 20-30 seconds. If this thing gets implemented you will have to CLICK it every 10 or so seconds.
Now, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind having this implemented. Only if we could get some auto d-scanning option and we can still keep an eye on the d-scan.



agreed on the different proposal here, but this one not much.

OR, make auto dscan, but give it a malus, like works only in 360° (to prevent making it a easy hunt tool, camera auto facing alrerady ease it too much) mode and give a bigger sig radius vs scanning probes.

after all, it's more or less like a sub sweep, and sub knows that constant sweeping makes you easier to pinpoint (or passive vs active radar etc...)

or if more balance needed, make so a ship on active dscan mode could be found without probes, only by being scanned by inspace ships (at least 3 )

conditions for obtaining a warp point on a hunted ship:

at least 3 scanners
target is on auto dscan mode
scanners in same fleet
scanners shall all be at least at 3 AU or farther from each other (and at dscan range from the target obviously)
all scanner ships shall find the target within 10° with dscan (for balance purpose, range could be added like find it with +- 1 au etc...)

ship using manual dscan mode require the current mechanic to be found

basic mechanics of active vs passive detection that exist irl
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