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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#81 - 2013-03-05 17:22:18 UTC
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares.

Yes, CCP got nothing for selling that plex....

And there's nobody else going to buy it? Holding EVE to ransom over Hi sec is quite silly.

Not so, it's been done since time immemorial, the great weapon that allows highsec to get ALL the buffs and stand firm Against ALL Nerfs.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-03-05 17:26:47 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares.

Yes, CCP got nothing for selling that plex....

And there's nobody else going to buy it? Holding EVE to ransom over Hi sec is quite silly.

Not so, it's been done since time immemorial, the great weapon that allows highsec to get ALL the buffs and stand firm Against ALL Nerfs.



Children act like children. Does't mean the behaviour is childish.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2013-03-05 17:27:04 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Did you miss the part where I proposed that they were ratting and not sitting in your belt? That's how they can spend their time doing something they might need doing anyway and can support the local industrials.



Your 0.0 experience is a lot different from mine. No one rats when there is a cloaky neutral in system, because teh cyno he lights is just as likely to bring a black ops fleet to destroy your PVE ship as it is to blow up my mining fleet.

All industry and PVE shuts down when an AFK cloaky shows up.



Abrazzar wrote:

Also you could offer them replacement ships (and implants) should a fight happen, so they can throw themselves against the invading forces, giving your industrials time to warp off. And you also just assume the blackops fleet will always have enough people and fire power available to blob you out.


Since they have all the intel they need, they have the power to ensure they only come when they have the firepower to win.


Abrazzar wrote:

With that mentality you should stay out of PvP anyway as with your point of view you'd always be blobbed out with no chance for survival, 100% guaranteed loss and no point in even trying.

You know, I start to suspect you're just trolling.


Maybe you missed all my other posts where I say my number one goal in EVE is to not give other players kills? There is no profit in it. I'd rather lose 2 billion ISK by not undocking, then undock, mine 2 billion iSK and lose 200 million in ships. Why? Because that 200 million ship loss is not in a vacuume. That 200 million ISK loss brings more sharks looking for kills.

The ONLY defense to the griefing war dec, or the AFK cloaky, is to ensure they do NOT get what they want... kills.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#84 - 2013-03-05 17:42:05 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Your 0.0 experience is a lot different from mine. No one rats when there is a cloaky neutral in system, because teh cyno he lights is just as likely to bring a black ops fleet to destroy your PVE ship as it is to blow up my mining fleet.

All industry and PVE shuts down when an AFK cloaky shows up.

This is the way it should be. Without the ability for a handful of people to shut down an alliance's line-member isk making, blobs would rule the world.
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
And you also just assume the blackops fleet will always have enough people and fire power available to blob you out.

Since they have all the intel they need, they have the power to ensure they only come when they have the firepower to win.

Exactly. Plus, your ships are miners or else PVE fit ratters. You wouldn't be able to do much against a fleet prepared to kill you.

Also, trying to reimburse would totally make you better off with highsec's CONCORD protection.
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
With that mentality you should stay out of PvP anyway as with your point of view you'd always be blobbed out with no chance for survival, 100% guaranteed loss and no point in even trying.

You know, I start to suspect you're just trolling.

Maybe you missed all my other posts where I say my number one goal in EVE is to not give other players kills? There is no profit in it. I'd rather lose 2 billion ISK by not undocking, then undock, mine 2 billion iSK and lose 200 million in ships. Why? Because that 200 million ship loss is not in a vacuume. That 200 million ISK loss brings more sharks looking for kills.

The ONLY defense to the griefing war dec, or the AFK cloaky, is to ensure they do NOT get what they want... kills.

Exactly, you're trolling the "PVP"ers who just want easy kills. Stay docked or in that POS.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#85 - 2013-03-05 17:42:46 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Pure hyperbole and rhetoric.


You are a funny man...really.
There was never a problem with high sec industry until the last 12 months or so, once null sec had figured they had industrialized null sec profitability to a fine art. Then they started casting their eyes at other parts of the game, and started the propaganda campaign "high sec rich, null sec poor, nerf high sec".

Tell me, how many members in the CFC or HBC, or the Russian null sec groups have an alt in a supercap?
Then tell me how many members of high sec can afford a supercap if they sold everything they have?

Oh right, you can't since CCP has placed an embargo on detailed economic data.

You know, you might have some credibility if you were screaming from the mountaintops demanding CCP release tons of economic data about the income levels in all aspects of he game, in order to do some actual analysis about what people are actually making, so real fact based proposals could be made.

But no, you and the rest of the null sec cabal just utilize a huge propaganda campaign to try to convince forum readers that rhetoric is actual fact. Not long ago I remember some guys in the states using this methodology to invade a country, bomb it back to the stone age, and plunder its oil. You guys are not dumb, that is for sure. You see what political methods work, and wield them with great aplomb.


I see you're afraid to address the things I actually said, preferring instead to imagine things I said and yell about them.

You are so hilariously mistaken about my motivations and goals that it's hard for me to take you seriously. Your posts read like something from one of those automatic rant generators that used to infest the internet a few years ago. I wish I could persuade you of what I'd really like to accomplish, but since the only tools I have are facts, evidence, reason and the truth, I stand no chance at all.

I wish you all the best and I look forward to reading in a year or so your angry, fearful, consipracy-laden explaination of how it is that I have mysteriously failed to eradicate hi-sec.

Meanwhile I suggest going out into the fresh air and maybe spending some time with friends. You're sure not enjoying yourself looking at the monitor.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#86 - 2013-03-05 17:46:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
You are so hilariously mistaken about my motivations and goals that it's hard for me to take you seriously. Your posts read like something from one of those automatic rant generators that used to infest the internet a few years ago. I wish I could persuade you of what I'd really like to accomplish, but since the only tools I have are facts, evidence, reason and the truth, I stand no chance at all.

I wish you all the best and I look forward to reading in a year or so your angry, fearful, consipracy-laden explaination of how it is that I have mysteriously failed to eradicate hi-sec.

Meanwhile I suggest going out into the fresh air and maybe spending some time with friends. You're sure not enjoying yourself looking at the monitor.

Maybe it is a new bot that generates rants for you.

Also, what do you mean, we are going to eradicate highsec - at least until CCP steps in with NPCs and game mechanics to stop us.

I am enjoying myself, please don't stop him from posting.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#87 - 2013-03-05 17:49:38 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You are so hilariously mistaken about my motivations and goals that it's hard for me to take you seriously. Your posts read like something from one of those automatic rant generators that used to infest the internet a few years ago. I wish I could persuade you of what I'd really like to accomplish, but since the only tools I have are facts, evidence, reason and the truth, I stand no chance at all.

I wish you all the best and I look forward to reading in a year or so your angry, fearful, consipracy-laden explaination of how it is that I have mysteriously failed to eradicate hi-sec.

Meanwhile I suggest going out into the fresh air and maybe spending some time with friends. You're sure not enjoying yourself looking at the monitor.

Maybe it is a new bot that generates rants for you.

Also, what do you mean, we are going to eradicate highsec - at least until CCP steps in with NPCs and game mechanics to stop us.

I am enjoying myself, please don't stop him from posting.


I respect that he cares passionately about the game. I just wish the energy he puts into defending it wasn't so badly misdirected.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2013-03-05 17:57:13 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Tell me, how many members in the CFC or HBC, or the Russian null sec groups have an alt in a supercap?

Sure as hell not me or most people I know.
If we all had the isk to put ourselves in supercaps we wouldn't have a problem with people ratting when they're supposed to be deployed.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#89 - 2013-03-05 18:00:31 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
Tell me, how many members in the CFC or HBC, or the Russian null sec groups have an alt in a supercap?

Sure as hell not me or most people I know.
If we all had the isk to put ourselves in supercaps we wouldn't have a problem with people ratting when they're supposed to be deployed.

But people ratted with titans, so...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#90 - 2013-03-05 18:47:51 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
equal ..

the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.

You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game?
Yeah, totally flawed.


What's flawed is the belief that sov null sec deserves best reward when NPC null sec and low sec are where the highest risk is.

Low sec and NPC null sec should be the place for the highest rewards, not sov null sec.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Zircon Dasher
#91 - 2013-03-05 18:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
I have been gone from the game for some time, and gone from null even longer, but after reading the CSM notes I kind of wonder why the best reasons for significantly altering the industrial landscape (in addition to other areas of the game) are being left out of the discussion.

Anyway, I will throw my opinion into the ring just in case anyone with the ability to actually effect an outcome cares: In general I think Malcanis has the right idea about shifting the general types of industry that are 'bonused' or found (in large degree) in different space. However, type shifting will be a short-term disaster if done in a vacuum and needs to have other ground clearing work done first (or in conjunction with.... but I am trying to avoid the 'uber-patch' mindset). The question that should be discussed, by thread-derailment if need be, is how people envision the type shift. RvR is mostly a pointless discussion and saps a lot of generative energy.

In the long-run (IMO) production capacity needs a significant increase in null and a significant decrease in high. Moreover, null needs a significant decrease in reprocessing capacity and a significant increase in refining capacity. In regards to high, the inverse of the refining capacity needs to occur. Invention, research, and/or copying should be biased away from null- be it high or low- even though the manufacturing should be biased away from high -be it null or low.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#92 - 2013-03-05 18:52:57 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Onomerous wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
This is a secret nerf hisec thread..


No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away.


But it so much more fun when its secret. Then all the little goonies come out and play..


Considering the OP has James315 in his signature and that James315 was a goon, then you may consider them invited to the thread since post #1.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Dark Reignz
Four-Q
#93 - 2013-03-05 19:12:26 UTC
Good god, how many more frickin NERF HIGH SEC threads do we need. The fat isk rich blobs in null already have the best of everything while their mining/ ratting remains on par risk wise to high sec and ganking.

Face up to the fact you have everything. The real point behind all of these kind of threads is the same. The poor null bears are bored ratting, mining slurping moon goo and want force all high seccers un-willingly into "there territory" so they have something else to do.... "Shoot things" because they are so fck-in lame that they wont go shooting rivals all because they want to protect the fat isk machine.

Null Sec today is far safer than low-sec and that's not what was intended. So all the risk adverse alliances larding it up in null, carry on making it safer and more boring but you can't expect Hi Sec population to be punished for that.

There are even comments saying how Null and Hi should be balanced accordingly. I agree, High Seccers want tech moons (yielding less tech over time than null moons do) and the ability to use and build up to, not exceeding carriers, possibly supers . Eventually both populations get what they want. More risk avoiding production of caps and in time Hi Sec Entities will be more tempted to launch attacks on null for space on epic proportions.

How about that ?

No ?

Well HSFU with Hi Sec nerfage / Null buffing

Troll Mode - ON
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#94 - 2013-03-05 19:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
equal ..

the belief that nulsec should be more than hisec is based on a flawed premise.

You consider the premise that what players work hard, risk plenty, and spend a lot to build should be superior to what's handed to them at virtually no cost, no risk, and no effort in the safest area of the game?
Yeah, totally flawed.


What's flawed is the belief that sov null sec deserves best reward when NPC null sec and low sec are where the highest risk is.

Low sec and NPC null sec should be the place for the highest rewards, not sov null sec.


Sov null inherently has the highest risk and investment cost out of all areas. The only reason it is considered "safer" is due to player interaction(intel channels, scouts, etc). For example I can leave my stuff in npc null station and go away for 1 week and not have to worry. If I leave it in a Sov null station, there is a chance I could lose access to it within the same week. Lets not mention the billions required to maintain SOV in said systems which can be attacked.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#95 - 2013-03-05 20:03:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Onomerous wrote:
Le Badass wrote:
Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core.

That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry...

Yes, fallacies such as the one Le Badass just offered are confusing. It's not an actual argument for null having better industry, though, so seeing as how this non-argument is the most confusing one, it can only mean one thing:

The actual arguments for that pretty much all make sense, if you happen to know of them.


wtf? Your rebuttal makes no sense...
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#96 - 2013-03-05 20:05:41 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Onomerous wrote:
Le Badass wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.

A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.

So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?


Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core.


That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry...

It's only confusing because you've gotten it into your head that that's what nullsec represents, which doesn't actually match up to the reality of nullsec.


So null sec is just as developed as hi-sec? I honestly do not understand your line of thought.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#97 - 2013-03-05 20:07:50 UTC
Dark Reignz wrote:
Good god, how many more frickin NERF HIGH SEC threads do we need. The fat isk rich blobs in null already have the best of everything while their mining/ ratting remains on par risk wise to high sec and ganking.

Face up to the fact you have everything. The real point behind all of these kind of threads is the same. The poor null bears are bored ratting, mining slurping moon goo and want force all high seccers un-willingly into "there territory" so they have something else to do.... "Shoot things" because they are so fck-in lame that they wont go shooting rivals all because they want to protect the fat isk machine.

Null Sec today is far safer than low-sec and that's not what was intended. So all the risk adverse alliances larding it up in null, carry on making it safer and more boring but you can't expect Hi Sec population to be punished for that.

There are even comments saying how Null and Hi should be balanced accordingly. I agree, High Seccers want tech moons (yielding less tech over time than null moons do) and the ability to use and build up to, not exceeding carriers, possibly supers . Eventually both populations get what they want. More risk avoiding production of caps and in time Hi Sec Entities will be more tempted to launch attacks on null for space on epic proportions.

How about that ?

No ?

Well HSFU with Hi Sec nerfage / Null buffing


A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0

That doesn't sound broken to you?
Whim Aqayn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2013-03-05 20:11:12 UTC
Yes, nullsec industry should be > hi sec industry.

At the same time nullsec industry needs to be much less safe than it currently is. Additionally there should be resources which are only available in lowsec and hisec respectively.
Dark Reignz
Four-Q
#99 - 2013-03-05 20:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Reignz
baltec1 wrote:
Dark Reignz wrote:
Good god, how many more frickin NERF HIGH SEC threads do we need. The fat isk rich blobs in null already have the best of everything while their mining/ ratting remains on par risk wise to high sec and ganking.

Face up to the fact you have everything. The real point behind all of these kind of threads is the same. The poor null bears are bored ratting, mining slurping moon goo and want force all high seccers un-willingly into "there territory" so they have something else to do.... "Shoot things" because they are so fck-in lame that they wont go shooting rivals all because they want to protect the fat isk machine.

Null Sec today is far safer than low-sec and that's not what was intended. So all the risk adverse alliances larding it up in null, carry on making it safer and more boring but you can't expect Hi Sec population to be punished for that.

There are even comments saying how Null and Hi should be balanced accordingly. I agree, High Seccers want tech moons (yielding less tech over time than null moons do) and the ability to use and build up to, not exceeding carriers, possibly supers . Eventually both populations get what they want. More risk avoiding production of caps and in time Hi Sec Entities will be more tempted to launch attacks on null for space on epic proportions.

How about that ?

No ?

Well HSFU with Hi Sec nerfage / Null buffing


A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0

That doesn't sound broken to you?



Lookidat map - active users in the last 30 mins : http://oi46.tinypic.com/2r5dtvb.jpg

In a word....... NO

Edit: On the flip side, and coincidentally, there are more people in one Caldari high sec system than there are in MOST OF null sec brah.

Troll Mode - ON
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#100 - 2013-03-05 20:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Dark Reignz wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
A single system in caldari high sec has more industry slots than entire regions of 0.0

That doesn't sound broken to you?

Lookidat map - active users in the last 30 mins : http://oi46.tinypic.com/2r5dtvb.jpg

In a word....... NO

Highsec needs even MORE slots !! Quick give them more of what they came to eve online for : easy low risk gameplay.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?