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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#61 - 2013-03-05 16:33:59 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
This is a secret nerf hisec thread..


No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away.


But it so much more fun when its secret. Then all the little goonies come out and play..
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#62 - 2013-03-05 16:34:12 UTC
Le Badass wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.

A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.

So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?


Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core.


That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry...
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-03-05 16:36:08 UTC
Here it goes. Why do people just assume this is about, ooh I want more people to shoot at. It really isn't that simple.

The point is this: If you are an industrial player in null, you are at massive disadvantage to anyone who stays in high.

Why would any industrial move to Null?

There should be a reason, but there isn't. I think this threads gone to the trolls. Shame as there are some people who actually attempt to rationalise arguments on both sides. Most of the people in here are just having a spaz
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#64 - 2013-03-05 16:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Onomerous wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
This is a secret nerf hisec thread..


No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away.


But it so much more fun when its secret. Then all the little goonies come out and play..


"Goonspiricies"
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#65 - 2013-03-05 16:37:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Onomerous wrote:
Athena Maldoran wrote:
This is a secret nerf hisec thread..

No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away.

But it so much more fun when its secret. Then all the little goonies come out and play..

"Conspiricies"

Little? You clearly haven't seen daBIGredboat.

Well, he's not a "goonie" but he might as well be to the informed participants in GENERAL DISCUSSION.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-03-05 16:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Fearghaz Tiwas
Onomerous wrote:
Le Badass wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.

A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.

So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?


Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core.


That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry...


Right, it isnt about moving all Industry to Null. Just making it worthwhile for those that do.

Its more profitable to PVE in Null, yet the majority do it in Hi sec. Why would this be different.

Also, not better, just not massively gimped
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#67 - 2013-03-05 16:40:20 UTC
From my time in 0.0 I remember a reason why a single cloaker can shut down a system: There is no combat backup anywhere in sight and you are usually alone in the system. All it'd need would be a small pvp gang in the system, ratting the belts or something while on standby, maybe a covops with probes out or even a bubble on warp in and bookmarks to warp off the belt.

All it'd need would be some people and preparations, but as one is alone with no backup, a cloaked sigil alt scouting the gate locks the whole system down.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2013-03-05 16:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Onomerous wrote:
Le Badass wrote:
Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core.

That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry...

Yes, fallacies such as the one Le Badass just offered are confusing. It's not an actual argument for null having better industry, though, so seeing as how this non-argument is the most confusing one, it can only mean one thing:

The actual arguments for that pretty much all make sense, if you happen to know of them.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2013-03-05 16:56:32 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
From my time in 0.0 I remember a reason why a single cloaker can shut down a system: There is no combat backup anywhere in sight and you are usually alone in the system. All it'd need would be a small pvp gang in the system, ratting the belts or something while on standby, maybe a covops with probes out or even a bubble on warp in and bookmarks to warp off the belt.

All it'd need would be some people and preparations, but as one is alone with no backup, a cloaked sigil alt scouting the gate locks the whole system down.


From my time in 0.0, it is hard to get a PvP fleet to sit for hours and hours, or days, doing nothing but sitting in a belt. If they enjoyed that, they'd be miners, not PvPers.

If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec.

Even if you have a PVP fleet, then the black ops fleet just brings enough to kill them too. The decision on when/if to fight is 100% the option of the black ops fleet with their AFK cloaky.
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-03-05 16:58:44 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
From my time in 0.0 I remember a reason why a single cloaker can shut down a system: There is no combat backup anywhere in sight and you are usually alone in the system. All it'd need would be a small pvp gang in the system, ratting the belts or something while on standby, maybe a covops with probes out or even a bubble on warp in and bookmarks to warp off the belt.

All it'd need would be some people and preparations, but as one is alone with no backup, a cloaked sigil alt scouting the gate locks the whole system down.


From my time in 0.0, it is hard to get a PvP fleet to sit for hours and hours, or days, doing nothing but sitting in a belt. If they enjoyed that, they'd be miners, not PvPers.

If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec.

Even if you have a PVP fleet, then the black ops fleet just brings enough to kill them too. The decision on when/if to fight is 100% the option of the black ops fleet with their AFK cloaky.





Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#71 - 2013-03-05 17:02:11 UTC
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec.

Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.

Further reason why you should stay in highsec. Easier, safer, more-profit-er, BETTER.

Higsec4lyfe

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2013-03-05 17:04:46 UTC
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
[
Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.


tax high sec, I can't fund my account with PLEX. Those like me, quit playing. CCP suffers massive revenue loss and likely goes bankrupt. EVE ceases to exist.

How does that make the game better?
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-03-05 17:04:59 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec.

Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.

Further reason why you should stay in highsec. Easier, safer, more-profit-er, BETTER.

Higsec4lyfe



Haha. I'm not saying people shouldn't, just give people looking for more ways to make money effectively more options. TBF mate, your making my point for me again.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#74 - 2013-03-05 17:08:14 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
From my time in 0.0 I remember a reason why a single cloaker can shut down a system: There is no combat backup anywhere in sight and you are usually alone in the system. All it'd need would be a small pvp gang in the system, ratting the belts or something while on standby, maybe a covops with probes out or even a bubble on warp in and bookmarks to warp off the belt.

All it'd need would be some people and preparations, but as one is alone with no backup, a cloaked sigil alt scouting the gate locks the whole system down.


From my time in 0.0, it is hard to get a PvP fleet to sit for hours and hours, or days, doing nothing but sitting in a belt. If they enjoyed that, they'd be miners, not PvPers.

If I pay them to guard me out of my mining income, then I'm making way less than I could have made in high sec.

Even if you have a PVP fleet, then the black ops fleet just brings enough to kill them too. The decision on when/if to fight is 100% the option of the black ops fleet with their AFK cloaky.

Did you miss the part where I proposed that they were ratting and not sitting in your belt? That's how they can spend their time doing something they might need doing anyway and can support the local industrials.

Also you could offer them replacement ships (and implants) should a fight happen, so they can throw themselves against the invading forces, giving your industrials time to warp off. And you also just assume the blackops fleet will always have enough people and fire power available to blob you out.

With that mentality you should stay out of PvP anyway as with your point of view you'd always be blobbed out with no chance for survival, 100% guaranteed loss and no point in even trying.

You know, I start to suspect you're just trolling.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#75 - 2013-03-05 17:08:36 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.

tax high sec, I can't fund my account with PLEX. Those like me, quit playing. CCP suffers massive revenue loss and likely goes bankrupt. EVE ceases to exist.

How does that make the game better?

Exactly, if you ever dare touch highsec (in a bad way) all the unsubs will kill EVE instantly !!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-03-05 17:09:11 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
[
Further reason for why industry in Hi-sec should be taxed. You pay CONCORD and the factions for protection.


tax high sec, I can't fund my account with PLEX. Those like me, quit playing. CCP suffers massive revenue loss and likely goes bankrupt. EVE ceases to exist.

How does that make the game better?


For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares.

And for the gamewide benefits

More emergant gameplay. More diverse gameplay. More players in places that aren't Jita. Less load on Jita. More Market hubs. More profit for the little guy (+/-1 traders wont have the same hold as not everyone will just be using major hubs). That's just the effects on High sec.

Come at me brosef, your closed mindedness intimidates me little
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#77 - 2013-03-05 17:09:29 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
And you also just assume the blackops fleet will always have enough people and fire power available to blob you out.

With that mentality you should stay out of PvP anyway as with your point of view you'd always be blobbed out with no chance for survival, 100% guaranteed loss and no point in even trying.

You know, I start to suspect you're just trolling.

Nerf blobbing. No troll, bro.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2013-03-05 17:11:54 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
Le Badass wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.

A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.

So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?


Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core.


That's the most confusing part of the argument for null sec having better industry...

It's only confusing because you've gotten it into your head that that's what nullsec represents, which doesn't actually match up to the reality of nullsec.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#79 - 2013-03-05 17:13:43 UTC
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares.

Yes, CCP got nothing for selling that plex....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-03-05 17:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Fearghaz Tiwas
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
For a start, if your funding your account with PLEX, you aren't paying for it anyways. Second, I'm sure you make plenty and Third, to make you think about how to make money/where to sell your wares.

Yes, CCP got nothing for selling that plex....


Just realised I misread what you said. Fail