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Should nullsec industry > hisec industry?

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#41 - 2013-03-05 15:27:55 UTC
Primary Me wrote:
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.

A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.

So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?


It would be good if productive activities were viable in all zones. Ideally, each zone would be dominant in one speciality, and co-equal in the others. Eg: Hi-sec might become easily the best place for invention, but then 0.0 should be definitely superior for eg: T2 production, and so on.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2013-03-05 15:29:29 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

A single retribution on watch is enough to deal with AFK cloakers.


Not hardly. Have you heard of the cov ops cyno, that is not jammed even by a system cyno jammer?

This was bad when I was last in null a year or so ago, and has only gotten worse with recent buffs to black ops jump range and jump portal range. There is no effective defense against an afk cloaky with a cov ops cyno.


Sure there is.

I have a raven I use for bomber blasting, just use your intel tools. You can use an inexpensive rifter for most AFK cloakies and not give a damn if they cyno drop you.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-03-05 15:46:36 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.

A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.

So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?


It would be good if productive activities were viable in all zones. Ideally, each zone would be dominant in one speciality, and co-equal in the others. Eg: Hi-sec might become easily the best place for invention, but then 0.0 should be definitely superior for eg: T2 production, and so on.


This. Thank you.

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-03-05 15:46:57 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

A single retribution on watch is enough to deal with AFK cloakers.


Not hardly. Have you heard of the cov ops cyno, that is not jammed even by a system cyno jammer?

This was bad when I was last in null a year or so ago, and has only gotten worse with recent buffs to black ops jump range and jump portal range. There is no effective defense against an afk cloaky with a cov ops cyno.


Sure there is.

I have a raven I use for bomber blasting, just use your intel tools. You can use an inexpensive rifter for most AFK cloakies and not give a damn if they cyno drop you.


What?

Are you suggesting i mine in a rifter? That I attempt to haul the million m3 of minerals that it takes to build one large ship, in a rifter? That I attempt to run a haven in a rifter?

Exactly what is it that you think I'm going to be doing in a rifter that makes null more profitable than high sec?
Vince Snetterton
#45 - 2013-03-05 15:53:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Pure hyperbole and rhetoric.


You are a funny man...really.
There was never a problem with high sec industry until the last 12 months or so, once null sec had figured they had industrialized null sec profitability to a fine art. Then they started casting their eyes at other parts of the game, and started the propaganda campaign "high sec rich, null sec poor, nerf high sec".

Tell me, how many members in the CFC or HBC, or the Russian null sec groups have an alt in a supercap?
Then tell me how many members of high sec can afford a supercap if they sold everything they have?

Oh right, you can't since CCP has placed an embargo on detailed economic data.

You know, you might have some credibility if you were screaming from the mountaintops demanding CCP release tons of economic data about the income levels in all aspects of he game, in order to do some actual analysis about what people are actually making, so real fact based proposals could be made.

But no, you and the rest of the null sec cabal just utilize a huge propaganda campaign to try to convince forum readers that rhetoric is actual fact. Not long ago I remember some guys in the states using this methodology to invade a country, bomb it back to the stone age, and plunder its oil. You guys are not dumb, that is for sure. You see what political methods work, and wield them with great aplomb.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#46 - 2013-03-05 16:00:28 UTC
It should be similar as in hisec you know station slots, refining and stuff

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2013-03-05 16:07:05 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:


What?

Are you suggesting i mine in a rifter? That I attempt to haul the million m3 of minerals that it takes to build one large ship, in a rifter? That I attempt to run a haven in a rifter?

Exactly what is it that you think I'm going to be doing in a rifter that makes null more profitable than high sec?




Have it on standby.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-03-05 16:11:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:


What?

Are you suggesting i mine in a rifter? That I attempt to haul the million m3 of minerals that it takes to build one large ship, in a rifter? That I attempt to run a haven in a rifter?

Exactly what is it that you think I'm going to be doing in a rifter that makes null more profitable than high sec?




Have it on standby.



Again, I don't understand.

The afk cloaky returns from 8 hours at work to find some mining barges in a belt. He gathers his corp in cov ops or black ops ships, lights the cyno, and suddenly 20+ ships surround my mining fleet. In seconds, they blow up everything in sight, and fleet warp to a safe, activating cloaks while in warp. When they land, they open black ops portals back out.


How does having a single rifter hanging out in the belt with me stop this?
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-03-05 16:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Fearghaz Tiwas
Mr Kidd wrote:
Primary Me wrote:
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.

A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.

So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?



Well, lets look at this from the perspective of reality.

Do western counties have more industry than say African or middle Eastern countries? Why is that....what could possibly be the reason? As a business person, do you want your business in a well controlled, stable society or one that might explode into tribal warfare at any time?

So, I guess it's only the null people that want a place that can erupt into tribal warfare with +1000 spearchuckers running around like mad-men destroying everything in their wake to have better industry than hs. Your logic is impeccable! Roll

Speaking for the rest of the universe....no thanks, we'll keep our industry in HS so the price of our ships don't fluctuate from reasonable to insane every other day.




Using your analogy, is it not cheaper and more efficient to make things in countries like Malaysia, China, Pakistan and the like. And aren't a a lot of precious metals and stones found in Africa. Neither of these places is the West. In fact, they are where the growing markets are too.

It may be safer to set up a company in America, but you will make more money (at a higher risk) if you try and make it in a developing economy. You also face much higher taxation in countries in the West, which is actually exactly how I think Null/Hi should be rebalanced.

Increase sales tax based on the sec status, and also implement a buying tax (VAT) for people buying items. I think this will give people to not just go to hubs to buy, and may lead to new hubs, not just for Low and Null, but for Hi as well. This has been discussed at some length in another thread however.

Nothing should be better/worse in Null/Hi, merely different. In high, you have safety that is offset by the taxation costs. In low/null you have potential danger, but lower taxes (there is no government there after all)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#50 - 2013-03-05 16:15:26 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
What?

Are you suggesting i mine in a rifter? That I attempt to haul the million m3 of minerals that it takes to build one large ship, in a rifter? That I attempt to run a haven in a rifter?

Exactly what is it that you think I'm going to be doing in a rifter that makes null more profitable than high sec?

Have it on standby.

Again, I don't understand.

The afk cloaky returns from 8 hours at work to find some mining barges in a belt. He gathers his corp in cov ops or black ops ships, lights the cyno, and suddenly 20+ ships surround my mining fleet. In seconds, they blow up everything in sight, and fleet warp to a safe, activating cloaks while in warp. When they land, they open black ops portals back out.


How does having a single rifter hanging out in the belt with me stop this?

It doesn't. You're gonna be bent over and chased around by cloaky campers, or else you'll suddenly be attacked by black ops battleships and bombers and T3s, or maybe even find a subcap fleet bridges onto you via titan.

EVE is harsh, go to highsec, where this doesn't occur. The mining income is pretty good there as well. CONCORD at no extra charge.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#51 - 2013-03-05 16:17:05 UTC
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
Using your analogy, is it not cheaper and more efficient to make things in countries like Malaysia, China, Pakistan and the like. And aren't a a lot of precious metals and stones found in Africa. Neither of these places is the West. In fact, they are where the growing markets are too. It may be safer to set up a company in America, but you will make more money (at a higher risk) if you try and make it in a developing economy

In this case though, thanks to the magic police and such, it's really so much safer to make it in the developed country, you'd have to be some sort of compulsive gambler to make it elsewhere.

CONCORD, the protection we all need. Local, the protection we "all" get.


Nerf local, buff CONCORD.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ginger Barbarella
#52 - 2013-03-05 16:17:07 UTC
Null sec industry shouldn't be the hard road that it is currently, but those that take the time to scheme and buy their own sov should be able to do it efficiently. Right now (as I understand it) it's not efficient at all. Industry in null (sov & NPC) can certainly be tweaked to make it possible for large corps and alliances to do their thing without having to run to Jita or Hek/Rens or Amarr to keep their infrastructure in place.

Should it be as safe as in high sec? Of course not. Having a successful industry infrastructure in null should be just as volatile and at risk as any other infrastructure in null, and just as open to attack. Making industry in null should NOT EVER mean giving them an Easy Button: just apply the risk formula there as it needs to be for null; don't just duplicate what's in high, because the risks are (and should be) quite different.

Should industry in high sec be castrated (nerfed) to make this happen? Of course not. I would love to move my corps into blue null to get me work done and sell my swag to friendlies, but right now it just can't happen. I can't get the materials I need in null at competitive prices (I said "competitive", not Jita-like) that I need to do my thing. The same thing applies to null, from what I see. Make the base materials more available to those willing to sink the infrastructure to make it happen, and it should pay off. But I don't buy the notion that high sec has to be castrated to make that happen because some are too lazy to MAKE IT HAPPEN in null.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-03-05 16:24:09 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Fearghaz Tiwas wrote:
Using your analogy, is it not cheaper and more efficient to make things in countries like Malaysia, China, Pakistan and the like. And aren't a a lot of precious metals and stones found in Africa. Neither of these places is the West. In fact, they are where the growing markets are too. It may be safer to set up a company in America, but you will make more money (at a higher risk) if you try and make it in a developing economy

In this case though, thanks to the magic police and such, it's really so much safer to make it in the developed country, you'd have to be some sort of compulsive gambler to make it elsewhere.

CONCORD, the protection we all need. Local, the protection we "all" get.


Nerf local, buff CONCORD.



Paid for by taxes, sorry I've edited my post since then, which should be a lot higher in High than Null
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-03-05 16:25:50 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

EVE is harsh, go to highsec, where this doesn't occur. The mining income is pretty good there as well. CONCORD at no extra charge.


EXACTLY, which is a big reason why I'm back in high sec. I can easily make enough ISK to keep my accounts funded with PLEX, without the hassle that is null. With no defense to AFK cloakies, there is no way to ensure I can make enough ISK to keep my accounts funded in null.

IF you want to lure more people out of high sec and into null, then you need to fix broken game mechanics like cloak and inability to boot people from corp unless they are docked.

IF you attempt the opposite, making high as risky as null, you will not get people to move to null. You will simply cause us to quit playing. CCP knows this, which is why they have created high sec the way it is, and have resisted all calls to nerf the F out of high.

They've tried the opposite.. increasing the rewards of other activities to lure people out of high, and it has been an economic disaster each time it was tried.
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-03-05 16:27:40 UTC
This is a secret nerf hisec thread..
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#56 - 2013-03-05 16:31:04 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:



Again, I don't understand.

The afk cloaky returns from 8 hours at work to find some mining barges in a belt. He gathers his corp in cov ops or black ops ships, lights the cyno, and suddenly 20+ ships surround my mining fleet. In seconds, they blow up everything in sight, and fleet warp to a safe, activating cloaks while in warp. When they land, they open black ops portals back out.


How does having a single rifter hanging out in the belt with me stop this?


it helps because 9 times out of 10 its a solo bomber. You also can use intel to tell if the guy in local is likely to have a cyno or not.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#57 - 2013-03-05 16:31:33 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
This is a secret nerf hisec thread..


No, not secret and yes, they want to nerf hi-sec. The title gave it away.
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-03-05 16:31:43 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
This is a secret nerf hisec thread..


Not really that secret. I mean, the questions being asked, but nobody thinks that null sec industry should be nerfed do they?
Le Badass
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-03-05 16:32:43 UTC
Primary Me wrote:
There have been a couple of very good threads recently discussing the balance of industry between hisec and nullsec, with some excellent debate and copious amounts of data and examples supporting either side of the argument.

A factor or question that has come up a number of times, but then lost in the depths of economic arguments, is whether nullsec should be on par or better than hisec for industry, which, thinking about it, is a question that needs to be answered first, before discussing any balancing that might need to be done.

So here we go, should nullsec industry be the equal or better than hisec or is the open, risk free hisec industrial machine necessary to keep the forges of Eve burning? Is it simply risk v reward, or more complex than that?


Of course nullsec industry should be better than empire industry, because it totally makes sense that industry is better developed at the fringes of known civilization than in its core.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#60 - 2013-03-05 16:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
EVE is harsh, go to highsec, where this doesn't occur. The mining income is pretty good there as well. CONCORD at no extra charge.

EXACTLY, which is a big reason why I'm back in high sec. I can easily make enough ISK to keep my accounts funded with PLEX, without the hassle that is null. With no defense to AFK cloakies, there is no way to ensure I can make enough ISK to keep my accounts funded in null.

This is the way it should be. The coldness and harshness of EVE Online must be kept at bay via the constant vigilance and jammers/scramblers/guns of CONCORD.

In highsec only (for now - coming soon to a lowsec near you, perhaps ?! )
LHA Tarawa wrote:
IF you attempt the opposite, making high as risky as null, you will not get people to move to null. You will simply cause us to quit playing. CCP knows this, which is why they have created high sec the way it is, and have resisted all calls to nerf the F out of high.

Highsec is the sacred security status of EVE Online. It only becomes safer, eventually it will converge on being a NO PVPS EVER region.
LHA Tarawa wrote:
They've tried the opposite.. increasing the rewards of other activities to lure people out of high, and it has been an economic disaster each time it was tried.

Yeah, like when they were told the FW was broken and ignored it, then it was bent over like a cheap to the tune of trillions. Then they didn't ignore it anymore.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?