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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

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Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#881 - 2013-03-05 00:27:16 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
I'm glad people are taking the time here to ensure that my internet spaceship industry mirrors as closely as possible their bastardized version of economic history.

The one where highsec is the best ever, forever, I hope.


Obviously, because China, Dutch East Indies, comparative advantage, exchange rates arglefarglepfffffttttt

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#882 - 2013-03-05 00:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#883 - 2013-03-05 00:44:23 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

Downvoting should be a thing, perhaps.

Will it hurt the nullsec posters? Please say yes.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#884 - 2013-03-05 00:45:22 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

That was what I could not understand, If the machines are built in Europe and sold to China doesn't that mean the costs the companies are saving are in relation to wages not the cost of the equipment. Kind of exactly what I said?

As I have yet to see any argument as to how renting equipment is cheaper than owing your own in relation to running costs. As the initial capital expenditure is obviously higher if you buy the manufacturing equipment.


No, because those export equipment are required to fulfill so low standards in terms of automation, quality control, safeties (and much more) that it costs much less to produce than the same stuff for western countries. That's for amortization costs.

Then their cycles time is faster which for high volume is very important, the NOK pieces are vastly less so you make a 2% production increase right there, you generally need to support less reconfigurations (they cost a good number of working hours each) and "model recipes" and a number of other details.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#885 - 2013-03-05 00:54:44 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So what you are saying is that facilities in more developed areas (Hi-sec) should cost more than for the other areas of space.

Good to see you agree on that, now I just need to convince you of why owning your own facilities should be more profitable within the same area.


sigh I never thought I'd like a post by you Frying but you've grown on me :).

Exactly right. Why should paying someone to do all the work be cheaper than having your own facilities? where does that make sense anywhere?


…

Also, Apple: outsourced manufacturing and very succesful branding campaings.

Yes those companies that out source do so not due to cheaper manufacturing facilities but cheaper wages.


Note that a large portion of the reason that Apple has outsourced to companies like Foxconn isn't just the labour costs, it's the ability for Foxconn to talk to their various suppliers who are literally down the road, and adjust a production line "over night". If you were trying to run the same production line in America, you'd have to import the components from elsewhere. Since shipping takes time (2 weeks if shipping by ship), the production manager can't simply change a component overnight.

As for why paying someone to do all the work might be cheaper than having your own facilities: this depends on what kind of worker you attract, what unions are involved, and whether you have slaves and indentured servants or workers who are free to leave the company and find a better paying job elsewhere.

The environmental regulations covering companies operating in China are also easier to meet than environmental regulations in the USA or most "developed" countries. Thus it might be acceptable to leave e-waste lying around in landfill in China, but in the USA and Australia leaving all that toxic metal lying around is illegal.

How do we represent these ingame? At present we only have empire charters, along with a reduction in fuel consumption for null sec POSes in sov space.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#886 - 2013-03-05 02:30:54 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

Downvoting should be a thing, perhaps.

Will it hurt the nullsec posters? Please say yes.


Mostly depends on the ratio of high sec poster to null sec poster. If it follow in-game population, null sec poster are doomed to negative likes count...

That would totally hurt them btw.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#887 - 2013-03-05 02:34:23 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

The truth hurts that much?

I haven't seen so much parochial thinking since last time I browsed the WoW boards.

Nullsec has the most access, the most things that can be done, industry that is pulled many different ways by the demands of supercap production, moon mining, and drug production in addition to local production of things they can perfectly well produce and import from lowsec (where there are *quite* adequate production facilities at highsec prices without the need to brave a single gate camp for access)).

The only reason I can see for this crusade to gut highsec industry is that there are too many production lines to do a full manipulation to lock people out with the resources they have at the moment, because everything they are asking for but that they already have.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#888 - 2013-03-05 02:36:36 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

Downvoting should be a thing, perhaps.

Will it hurt the nullsec posters? Please say yes.


Mostly depends on the ratio of high sec poster to null sec poster. If it follow in-game population, null sec poster are doomed to negative likes count...

That would totally hurt them btw.

Just like the CSM elections.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#889 - 2013-03-05 02:44:23 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

The truth hurts that much?

I haven't seen so much parochial thinking since last time I browsed the WoW boards.

Nullsec has the most access, the most things that can be done, industry that is pulled many different ways by the demands of supercap production, moon mining, and drug production in addition to local production of things they can perfectly well produce and import from lowsec (where there are *quite* adequate production facilities at highsec prices without the need to brave a single gate camp for access)).

The only reason I can see for this crusade to gut highsec industry is that there are too many production lines to do a full manipulation to lock people out with the resources they have at the moment, because everything they are asking for but that they already have.

Nice buzzwords, buzzy.
Doesn't change the facts of the matter though.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Frying Doom
#890 - 2013-03-05 03:06:38 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Its possible find common ground between hi-sec and null but its becoming clear that isn't really possible in this thread. The null agenda people are set on their program of changes which they developed and honed in other threads, and are now repeating over and over again. Any alternative to their program will not be considered. Flaws and difficulties in their plan are being actively ignored and sidestepped.

Bringing hi-sec slot costs into line with null costs, solutions to lack of low end minerals in null and other things cannot be discussed because the null people already have their position and are unwilling to budge.

If I try to make a constructive post that helps fix some of the perceived problems, look for a compromise position, or accept any of their points as a legitimate grievance, it will only taken it as a validation of their entire program. They will accept no alternatives to their plan. Its all or nothing. It doesn't matter to them how unrealistic their changes are, and that the odds of CCP actually following through with their changes is low bordering on the non-existent because they are so severe. They stick to their position with religious zeal. The only thing they guarantee with this behavior is full, unyielding opposition.

I find this thread entertaining though. I will continue to post. Never stop posting.

I must admit I do like new ideas and perceived problems.

So tell me your ideas so that I might convert to them if I believe they are better than the ones I currently have.


Go back in the thread and read them. I took the time to try to contribute to the thread and look at things from the opposite point of view. I proposed 2 things a bunch pages ago and they were all ignored. One was about bringing null POS costs into line with hi-sec slot costs. The other was about making low ends available in null at a competitive cost. If both of those don't happen I don't see how null can expect to challenge hi-sec. I frankly don't care enough about converting you to bother going back and re-posting them. I don't expect a different response from the one I already got. I don't expect you to try to meet me half way or to propose a reasonable alternative.

Ok I am slack atm and chant be bothered sifting through 44 pages but it sounds very similar to what was developed in the other thread naught where All Npc facility run cost are brought slightly above the cost per/hr of a POS slot (Adjusted for reasonable defenses ect.. and then an increase in the number of slots on an outpost.

As to the minerals the supply in NPC of lo-ends can be done by altering the mineral count is such minerals as spodmium which is completely worthless atm. but with this I must add I prefer an 8 fold increase in the consumption of jump fuels to lessen the impact that Null could potentially have on the markets of hi-sec. So meaning the markets of both Null and Hi-sec would be protected should an imbalance arise in one or the other.

This would allow a more meaning full industry every where without using a huge amount of development resources to achieve.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#891 - 2013-03-05 03:08:47 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

Downvoting should be a thing, perhaps.

Will it hurt the nullsec posters? Please say yes.

They will never bring in a down vote due to the Null people, they would send my posts so low as to cause the server to crash Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#892 - 2013-03-05 03:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

That was what I could not understand, If the machines are built in Europe and sold to China doesn't that mean the costs the companies are saving are in relation to wages not the cost of the equipment. Kind of exactly what I said?

As I have yet to see any argument as to how renting equipment is cheaper than owing your own in relation to running costs. As the initial capital expenditure is obviously higher if you buy the manufacturing equipment.


No, because those export equipment are required to fulfill so low standards in terms of automation, quality control, safeties (and much more) that it costs much less to produce than the same stuff for western countries. That's for amortization costs.

Then their cycles time is faster which for high volume is very important, the NOK pieces are vastly less so you make a 2% production increase right there, you generally need to support less reconfigurations (they cost a good number of working hours each) and "model recipes" and a number of other details.

So you are selling lower quality equipment at a cheaper price but either way around they still own the equipment and are not renting it.

As to a later post to do with EPA ect by Mara Rinn... the answer is Easy this is a space game you just flush it into space towards a sun.

As to unions ect.. these are all faceless NPCs and that would be a lore thing not a game mechanics one.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#893 - 2013-03-05 03:15:36 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

The truth hurts that much?

I haven't seen so much parochial thinking since last time I browsed the WoW boards.

Nullsec has the most access, the most things that can be done, industry that is pulled many different ways by the demands of supercap production, moon mining, and drug production in addition to local production of things they can perfectly well produce and import from lowsec (where there are *quite* adequate production facilities at highsec prices without the need to brave a single gate camp for access)).

The only reason I can see for this crusade to gut highsec industry is that there are too many production lines to do a full manipulation to lock people out with the resources they have at the moment, because everything they are asking for but that they already have.

Nice buzzwords, buzzy.
Doesn't change the facts of the matter though.

Doesn't change a thing, I think it's a much better description than anybody else has managed yet, though.

Really, looking at the realities, and the resources that are available to nullsec players, the whole "nerf highsec industry" thing is nonsense of the first order: the sort of thing that players come up with when they are bored.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Frying Doom
#894 - 2013-03-05 03:22:31 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

The truth hurts that much?

I haven't seen so much parochial thinking since last time I browsed the WoW boards.

Nullsec has the most access, the most things that can be done, industry that is pulled many different ways by the demands of supercap production, moon mining, and drug production in addition to local production of things they can perfectly well produce and import from lowsec (where there are *quite* adequate production facilities at highsec prices without the need to brave a single gate camp for access)).

The only reason I can see for this crusade to gut highsec industry is that there are too many production lines to do a full manipulation to lock people out with the resources they have at the moment, because everything they are asking for but that they already have.

Nice buzzwords, buzzy.
Doesn't change the facts of the matter though.

Doesn't change a thing, I think it's a much better description than anybody else has managed yet, though.

Really, looking at the realities, and the resources that are available to nullsec players, the whole "nerf highsec industry" thing is nonsense of the first order: the sort of thing that players come up with when they are bored.

Assuming you are right, why would the players be bored?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#895 - 2013-03-05 03:36:14 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP I request a downvote button specifically for Buzzy Warstl's posts.

I haven't seen so much kneejerk since they decided to buff mining barges and exhumers.

The truth hurts that much?

I haven't seen so much parochial thinking since last time I browsed the WoW boards.

Nullsec has the most access, the most things that can be done, industry that is pulled many different ways by the demands of supercap production, moon mining, and drug production in addition to local production of things they can perfectly well produce and import from lowsec (where there are *quite* adequate production facilities at highsec prices without the need to brave a single gate camp for access)).

The only reason I can see for this crusade to gut highsec industry is that there are too many production lines to do a full manipulation to lock people out with the resources they have at the moment, because everything they are asking for but that they already have.

Nice buzzwords, buzzy.
Doesn't change the facts of the matter though.

Doesn't change a thing, I think it's a much better description than anybody else has managed yet, though.

Really, looking at the realities, and the resources that are available to nullsec players, the whole "nerf highsec industry" thing is nonsense of the first order: the sort of thing that players come up with when they are bored.

Assuming you are right, why would the players be bored?


Never been to null sec but I will have to guess it's something along the line of "Null sec, while vastly different from high sec is just as boring". There are probably just a shitload of people not playing the right games. You see people saying null is a blue ocean with no shooting and other saying they get PvP as often as they wish. I don't care who's right but the one being bored probably should try to do something else with thier time.
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#896 - 2013-03-05 05:15:24 UTC
My thoughts for fixing null:

1. Lower cost to build outposts and allow them to be built on any planet in nullsec systems.

This makes them like a POS upgrade at the alliance level. But they need to be destructible and permanantly anchored while not being conquerable. This keeps people from tearing down their outposts at the first sign of danger and adds risks to alliances having one. It also keeps an opposing alliance from steamrolling a system and getting a fully capable indy system in place.

This also allows alliances to build heavily fortified massive indy systems where they can build huge amounts of supplies for the entire alliance without needing to rely on empire so much but at the same time it would make a tempting target for their enemies,


2. Encourage indy in nullsec:

  • Add 50 manufacturing slots to outposts (same as in empire) but have a time multiplier of .75
  • Add 30 ME/PE/Copy/invention slots with time multiplier of .6
  • Increase refining rate to 50%
  • Increase manufacturing and research taxes/fees in empire to something other than 333 isk/hr...lol


3. Make outposts useful but expensive to operate.

Have the outpost require fuel to run just like a POS but 5x as much.

Make upgrades like:

  • titan/SC docking for a large fee
  • taxes/fees from market items sold there go to alliance
  • ore compression without the need for a rorqual
  • Stargate lockdowns (limited to 1 per region) disabling the gates to non alliance members in the adjacent systems. This would allow for "safe" mining/ratting...as long as the gates aren't hacked by an EWAR/blackop/recon ship with codebreaker mods.


4. Remove jump capability of Jump freighter.

As it stands JF make it too easy to ship stuff into null. You can bypass an entire hostile region jumping right onto the station and docking immediately so even if there was suitable infrastructure for indy work it would still be much easier to import everything. Consequently, this along with the outpost changes would stimulate indy development in null since alliances wouldn't want to risk hotdrops of their supply convoys or spend the time slowboating everything in.

But I'm not sure how to fix the ship if this happened as buffing it's EHP would just make it the ideal AFK high value transport in empire. And making it faster would just about do the same. Maybe it's role could be switched to a ship transporter with a 5 millon m3 ship maintenance bay which would allow 10 fully rigged BS to be transported?

5. Remove non-rorqual mineral compresstion completely.
There is no reason for a titan to fit in a couple JF loads of 425mm rails.
Tesal
#897 - 2013-03-05 05:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tesal
Arcosian wrote:
My thoughts for fixing null:

1. Lower cost to build outposts and allow them to be built on any planet in nullsec systems.

This makes them like a POS upgrade at the alliance level. But they need to be destructible and permanantly anchored while not being conquerable. This keeps people from tearing down their outposts at the first sign of danger and adds risks to alliances having one. It also keeps an opposing alliance from steamrolling a system and getting a fully capable indy system in place.

This also allows alliances to build heavily fortified massive indy systems where they can build huge amounts of supplies for the entire alliance without needing to rely on empire so much but at the same time it would make a tempting target for their enemies,


2. Encourage indy in nullsec:

  • Add 50 manufacturing slots to outposts (same as in empire) but have a time multiplier of .75
  • Add 30 ME/PE/Copy/invention slots with time multiplier of .6
  • Increase refining rate to 50%
  • Increase manufacturing and research taxes/fees in empire to something other than 333 isk/hr...lol


3. Make outposts useful but expensive to operate.

Have the outpost require fuel to run just like a POS but 5x as much.

Make upgrades like:

  • titan/SC docking for a large fee
  • taxes/fees from market items sold there go to alliance
  • ore compression without the need for a rorqual
  • Stargate lockdowns (limited to 1 per region) disabling the gates to non alliance members in the adjacent systems. This would allow for "safe" mining/ratting...as long as the gates aren't hacked by an EWAR/blackop/recon ship with codebreaker mods.


4. Remove jump capability of Jump freighter.

As it stands JF make it too easy to ship stuff into null. You can bypass an entire hostile region jumping right onto the station and docking immediately so even if there was suitable infrastructure for indy work it would still be much easier to import everything. Consequently, this along with the outpost changes would stimulate indy development in null since alliances wouldn't want to risk hotdrops of their supply convoys or spend the time slowboating everything in.

But I'm not sure how to fix the ship if this happened as buffing it's EHP would just make it the ideal AFK high value transport in empire. And making it faster would just about do the same. Maybe it's role could be switched to a ship transporter with a 5 millon m3 ship maintenance bay which would allow 10 fully rigged BS to be transported?

5. Remove non-rorqual mineral compresstion completely.
There is no reason for a titan to fit in a couple JF loads of 425mm rails.


1. It would take years to build enough outposts to get production where the nullsec people want them. Its probable that POS are the solution to that.
2. Stuff
3. Making outposts expensive to operate would leave them unable to compete with hi-sec. Not a solution.
4. Removing jump freighters would make null logistics impossible. This isn't the old days when you could escort a freighter convoy into null. PL and everyone else would hot drop you and massacre everyone. JF are already expensive to use and very expensive to buy, its probably best to leave it at that.

tl;dr Your insane.

*edit: I put a bounty on you and your corp. I hope you get blown up.
*edit: your alliance too.
Esteban Dragonovic
Saidusairos Nebula Concern
#898 - 2013-03-05 06:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Esteban Dragonovic
This thread just went full ******, you know its bad when even the irrational people defending highsec turn against you.

E: CCP, we need that add bounty option intergrated into the forums right now.
Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#899 - 2013-03-05 06:09:04 UTC
Tesal wrote:

1. It would take years to build enough outposts to get production where the nullsec people want them. Its probable that POS are the solution to that.
2. Stuff
3. Making outposts expensive to operate would leave them unable to compete with hi-sec. Not a solution.
4. Removing jump freighters would make null logistics impossible. This isn't the old days when you could escort a freighter convoy into null. PL and everyone else would hot drop you and massacre everyone. JF are already expensive to use and very expensive to buy, its probably best to leave it at that.

tl;dr Your insane.

*edit: I put a bounty on you and your corp. I hope you get blown up.


1. That's why I said make them cheaper than they already are so they would be easier/faster to build.

2. Was to make them useful in null and more attractive than highsec stations since there is no decent infrastructure in null as it is unless you are in a corp with manufacturing POS. For null to truly be fixed indy wise alot of people need to have access to build/research slots as it stands outposts are the best way for that.

3. They can't be free since they are a station. Plus why should null have to rely/compete with highsec if they can be somewhat self sufficient?

4. So you want null indy fixed but still want to use JF to move stuff to/from empire? Then what "fix" do you have in mind?

In all of these "fix null nerf high" threads I've not seen 1 good post from nullsec residents about how to fix it. It always ends up being some convoluted argument to nerf highsec industry without affecting nullsec. I'm sorry but that just can't be done.
Tesal
#900 - 2013-03-05 06:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tesal
Arcosian wrote:
Tesal wrote:

1. It would take years to build enough outposts to get production where the nullsec people want them. Its probable that POS are the solution to that.
2. Stuff
3. Making outposts expensive to operate would leave them unable to compete with hi-sec. Not a solution.
4. Removing jump freighters would make null logistics impossible. This isn't the old days when you could escort a freighter convoy into null. PL and everyone else would hot drop you and massacre everyone. JF are already expensive to use and very expensive to buy, its probably best to leave it at that.

tl;dr Your insane.

*edit: I put a bounty on you and your corp. I hope you get blown up.


1. That's why I said make them cheaper than they already are so they would be easier/faster to build.

2. Was to make them useful in null and more attractive than highsec stations since there is no decent infrastructure in null as it is unless you are in a corp with manufacturing POS. For null to truly be fixed indy wise alot of people need to have access to build/research slots as it stands outposts are the best way for that.

3. They can't be free since they are a station. Plus why should null have to rely/compete with highsec if they can be somewhat self sufficient?

4. So you want null indy fixed but still want to use JF to move stuff to/from empire? Then what "fix" do you have in mind?

In all of these "fix null nerf high" threads I've not seen 1 good post from nullsec residents about how to fix it. It always ends up being some convoluted argument to nerf highsec industry without affecting nullsec. I'm sorry but that just can't be done.


I have nothing better to do with my isk than place bounties. Its my favorite thing.

*edit. I decided to round up. Check your bounty.

*your alliance too.