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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#861 - 2013-03-04 21:28:10 UTC
samualvimes wrote:
sigh I never thought I'd like a post by you Frying but you've grown on me :).

Exactly right. Why should paying someone to do all the work be cheaper than having your own facilities? where does that make sense anywhere?

Because CONCORD loves us, just like CCP.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#862 - 2013-03-04 21:28:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
samualvimes wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So what you are saying is that facilities in more developed areas (Hi-sec) should cost more than for the other areas of space.

Good to see you agree on that, now I just need to convince you of why owning your own facilities should be more profitable within the same area.


sigh I never thought I'd like a post by you Frying but you've grown on me :).

Exactly right. Why should paying someone to do all the work be cheaper than having your own facilities? where does that make sense anywhere?


Yeah it's not like China does not exist, Korea does not exist, Taiwan did not exist, Hong Kong + Malaysia did not exist and so on.

Let me tell how good it went with those first world countries having their own facilities vs those who outsourced in there.

Also, Apple: outsourced manufacturing and very succesful branding campaings.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#863 - 2013-03-04 21:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: samualvimes
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So what you are saying is that facilities in more developed areas (Hi-sec) should cost more than for the other areas of space.

Good to see you agree on that, now I just need to convince you of why owning your own facilities should be more profitable within the same area.


sigh I never thought I'd like a post by you Frying but you've grown on me :).

Exactly right. Why should paying someone to do all the work be cheaper than having your own facilities? where does that make sense anywhere?


Yeah it's not like China does not exist, Korea does not exist, Taiwan did not exist, Hong Kong + Malaysia did not exist and so on.

Let me tell how good it went with those first world countries having their own facilities vs those who outsourced in there.

Also, Apple: outsourced manufacturing and very succesful branding campaings.


I'm not sure I'm getting where this affects my point.

MY point is that all in the same country owning your own facilities is almost intrinsically better than hiring work out to others especially in manufacturing as you do not need to factor in everyone upon the chains markup for profit.

In the company I work for we only hire out work to toll manufacturers for prototypes after that we try and backintegrate fully for the larger scale as it's a lot cheaper.

nowhere did I mention outsourcing to cheaper labour countries.

Stealth edit: If it was in other countries then there is still the gradient between your own facilities in that country and outsourcing to facilities owned by others in that country.

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#864 - 2013-03-04 21:41:34 UTC
samualvimes wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So what you are saying is that facilities in more developed areas (Hi-sec) should cost more than for the other areas of space.

Good to see you agree on that, now I just need to convince you of why owning your own facilities should be more profitable within the same area.


sigh I never thought I'd like a post by you Frying but you've grown on me :).

Exactly right. Why should paying someone to do all the work be cheaper than having your own facilities? where does that make sense anywhere?


Yeah it's not like China does not exist, Korea does not exist, Taiwan did not exist, Hong Kong + Malaysia did not exist and so on.

Let me tell how good it went with those first world countries having their own facilities vs those who outsourced in there.

Also, Apple: outsourced manufacturing and very succesful branding campaings.


I'm not sure I'm getting where this affects my point.

MY point is that all in the same country owning your own facilities is almost intrinsically better than hiring work out to others especially in manufacturing as you do not need to factor in everyone upon the chains markup for profit.

In the company I work for we only hire out work to toll manufacturers for prototypes after that we try and backintegrate fully for the larger scale as it's a lot cheaper.

nowhere did I mention outsourcing to cheaper labour countries.

Stealth edit: If it was in other countries then there is still the gradient between your own facilities in that country and outsourcing to facilities owned by others in that country.

We outsource "our" protection to CONCORD, what's the problem with asking Caldari Navy to make our weapons of mass explosions...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#865 - 2013-03-04 21:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

So what you are saying is that facilities in more developed areas (Hi-sec) should cost more than for the other areas of space.

Good to see you agree on that, now I just need to convince you of why owning your own facilities should be more profitable within the same area.


sigh I never thought I'd like a post by you Frying but you've grown on me :).

Exactly right. Why should paying someone to do all the work be cheaper than having your own facilities? where does that make sense anywhere?


Yeah it's not like China does not exist, Korea does not exist, Taiwan did not exist, Hong Kong + Malaysia did not exist and so on.

Let me tell how good it went with those first world countries having their own facilities vs those who outsourced in there.

Also, Apple: outsourced manufacturing and very succesful branding campaings.

Yes those companies that out source do so not due to cheaper manufacturing facilities but cheaper wages.

In a lot of cases moving manufacturing to other countries costs millions and is a longer term project as they make their money back by a savings in wages, health care plans, superannuation, sick leave and holiday pay and wage taxes.

We are not concerned with wages as that is what the industrialist is they are the worker using the facilities.

Even in those other countries if you were to rent someone else's facilities it would and does cost you more than if you owned them yourself.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#866 - 2013-03-04 22:00:42 UTC
Let's see - 44 pages in and CCP has not commented once.

Now time for a reality check - do you believe CCP cares about how industry is lopsided towards high sec over null sec? Do you believe they are going to be diligent on fixing this issue or pass off some choice words to appease some players? After the Noble Exchange fiasco, personally I have started viewing CCP not as a gaming company run by gamers but as a business looking to make the most doing the least like any other business.

How long has industry been as it current stands?

How long has mining been the same old, same old?

How long has player owned stations been an issue that gets a "too much work for too little reward" answer for improving?

How long has sov been an issue?

Yet everyone cheers that the game is growing year after year. So why should CCP change anything when they know the players have been accepting everything dished out, will complain, yet return for more?
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#867 - 2013-03-04 22:07:03 UTC
Guttripper wrote:


Yet everyone cheers that the game is growing year after year. So why should CCP change anything when they know the players have been accepting everything dished out, will complain, yet return for more?


...have you been away for the last 3 years or something? Incarna, the Jita monument/protest, the massive flood of Spaceship related improvements in the last few years?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#868 - 2013-03-04 22:14:04 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes those companies that out source do so not due to cheaper manufacturing facilities but cheaper wages.

In a lot of cases moving manufacturing to other countries costs millions and is a longer term project as they make their money back by a savings in wages, health care plans, superannuation, sick leave and holiday pay and wage taxes.


They also have cheaper manufacturing facilities. I know, the last company I have worked for, designed and produced those manufacturing facilities for a lot of Chinese factories. So cheaper that it costed less to have their facilities designed and produced in Europe and shipped to them to produce in there, than any production done in Europe or USA.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#869 - 2013-03-04 22:17:04 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Guttripper wrote:


Yet everyone cheers that the game is growing year after year. So why should CCP change anything when they know the players have been accepting everything dished out, will complain, yet return for more?


...have you been away for the last 3 years or something? Incarna, the Jita monument/protest, the massive flood of Spaceship related improvements in the last few years?


Evidently, and correctly, CCP decided that creating cheap and new PvP ships and an host of refurbished features for everybody, takes over the precedence over some dozens of super-inflated pro industrialists unhappy with their double billion digits a month of revenue.

The increased PCU seems to suggest CCP were right helping (also) those dirty newbies and casuals.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#870 - 2013-03-04 22:47:07 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
Let's see - 44 pages in and CCP has not commented once.

Now time for a reality check - do you believe CCP cares about how industry is lopsided towards high sec over null sec? Do you believe they are going to be diligent on fixing this issue or pass off some choice words to appease some players? After the Noble Exchange fiasco, personally I have started viewing CCP not as a gaming company run by gamers but as a business looking to make the most doing the least like any other business.

How long has industry been as it current stands?

How long has mining been the same old, same old?

How long has player owned stations been an issue that gets a "too much work for too little reward" answer for improving?

How long has sov been an issue?

Yet everyone cheers that the game is growing year after year. So why should CCP change anything when they know the players have been accepting everything dished out, will complain, yet return for more?

It might be the fact that we had 100+ page threadnaught on this about 2 months ago.

Oh and a quick answer to "So why should CCP change anything when they know the players have been accepting everything dished out, will complain, yet return for more?"
So more players stay longer and more people sign up...So well cash.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#871 - 2013-03-04 22:50:48 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes those companies that out source do so not due to cheaper manufacturing facilities but cheaper wages.

In a lot of cases moving manufacturing to other countries costs millions and is a longer term project as they make their money back by a savings in wages, health care plans, superannuation, sick leave and holiday pay and wage taxes.


They also have cheaper manufacturing facilities. I know, the last company I have worked for, designed and produced those manufacturing facilities for a lot of Chinese factories. So cheaper that it costed less to have their facilities designed and produced in Europe and shipped to them to produce in there, than any production done in Europe or USA.

You completely lost me on that one.

Are you saying that you built the facilities and then sold them to China at a lower price than you do to Europe?

Or are you saying that you built the facilities and then rented them to china, so they cost the Chinese less to operate?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#872 - 2013-03-04 23:02:37 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes those companies that out source do so not due to cheaper manufacturing facilities but cheaper wages.

In a lot of cases moving manufacturing to other countries costs millions and is a longer term project as they make their money back by a savings in wages, health care plans, superannuation, sick leave and holiday pay and wage taxes.


They also have cheaper manufacturing facilities. I know, the last company I have worked for, designed and produced those manufacturing facilities for a lot of Chinese factories. So cheaper that it costed less to have their facilities designed and produced in Europe and shipped to them to produce in there, than any production done in Europe or USA.

You completely lost me on that one.

Are you saying that you built the facilities and then sold them to China at a lower price than you do to Europe?

Or are you saying that you built the facilities and then rented them to china, so they cost the Chinese less to operate?

I think they mean they produced machines in Europe, sent them to China, and had the chinese use the imported machines to make goods and ship the goods to Europe.

And this was apparently cheaper than making and using machines in Europe.


Europe has got nothing on highsec, then. You don't even have to make facilities, the NPCs let you use them for nearly nothing.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Frying Doom
#873 - 2013-03-04 23:08:44 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes those companies that out source do so not due to cheaper manufacturing facilities but cheaper wages.

In a lot of cases moving manufacturing to other countries costs millions and is a longer term project as they make their money back by a savings in wages, health care plans, superannuation, sick leave and holiday pay and wage taxes.


They also have cheaper manufacturing facilities. I know, the last company I have worked for, designed and produced those manufacturing facilities for a lot of Chinese factories. So cheaper that it costed less to have their facilities designed and produced in Europe and shipped to them to produce in there, than any production done in Europe or USA.

You completely lost me on that one.

Are you saying that you built the facilities and then sold them to China at a lower price than you do to Europe?

Or are you saying that you built the facilities and then rented them to china, so they cost the Chinese less to operate?

I think they mean they produced machines in Europe, sent them to China, and had the chinese use the imported machines to make goods and ship the goods to Europe.

And this was apparently cheaper than making and using machines in Europe.


Europe has got nothing on highsec, then. You don't even have to make facilities, the NPCs let you use them for nearly nothing.

That was what I could not understand, If the machines are built in Europe and sold to China doesn't that mean the costs the companies are saving are in relation to wages not the cost of the equipment. Kind of exactly what I said?

As I have yet to see any argument as to how renting equipment is cheaper than owing your own in relation to running costs. As the initial capital expenditure is obviously higher if you buy the manufacturing equipment.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tesal
#874 - 2013-03-04 23:14:07 UTC
Its possible find common ground between hi-sec and null but its becoming clear that isn't really possible in this thread. The null agenda people are set on their program of changes which they developed and honed in other threads, and are now repeating over and over again. Any alternative to their program will not be considered. Flaws and difficulties in their plan are being actively ignored and sidestepped.

Bringing hi-sec slot costs into line with null costs, solutions to lack of low end minerals in null and other things cannot be discussed because the null people already have their position and are unwilling to budge.

If I try to make a constructive post that helps fix some of the perceived problems, look for a compromise position, or accept any of their points as a legitimate grievance, it will only taken it as a validation of their entire program. They will accept no alternatives to their plan. Its all or nothing. It doesn't matter to them how unrealistic their changes are, and that the odds of CCP actually following through with their changes is low bordering on the non-existent because they are so severe. They stick to their position with religious zeal. The only thing they guarantee with this behavior is full, unyielding opposition.

I find this thread entertaining though. I will continue to post. Never stop posting.
Frying Doom
#875 - 2013-03-04 23:21:01 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Its possible find common ground between hi-sec and null but its becoming clear that isn't really possible in this thread. The null agenda people are set on their program of changes which they developed and honed in other threads, and are now repeating over and over again. Any alternative to their program will not be considered. Flaws and difficulties in their plan are being actively ignored and sidestepped.

Bringing hi-sec slot costs into line with null costs, solutions to lack of low end minerals in null and other things cannot be discussed because the null people already have their position and are unwilling to budge.

If I try to make a constructive post that helps fix some of the perceived problems, look for a compromise position, or accept any of their points as a legitimate grievance, it will only taken it as a validation of their entire program. They will accept no alternatives to their plan. Its all or nothing. It doesn't matter to them how unrealistic their changes are, and that the odds of CCP actually following through with their changes is low bordering on the non-existent because they are so severe. They stick to their position with religious zeal. The only thing they guarantee with this behavior is full, unyielding opposition.

I find this thread entertaining though. I will continue to post. Never stop posting.

I must admit I do like new ideas and perceived problems.

So tell me your ideas so that I might convert to them if I believe they are better than the ones I currently have.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#876 - 2013-03-04 23:27:06 UTC
Tesal wrote:
I find this thread entertaining though. I will continue to post. Never stop posting.


Somehow I feel that it is partly my fault for not getting this thread locked for ranting. I suppose I haven't tried hard enough.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#877 - 2013-03-04 23:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Frying Doom wrote:
So tell me your ideas so that I might convert to them if I believe they are better than the ones I currently have.


I don't know about her, but I do believe that POS system need a production capability increase across the board.

As this would benefit Null as well as WH space.

Also, I wouldn't be opposed to adding an asteroid type and mineral that is found only in Null and WH that gets added to all T2 bill of material requirements.

The key point here is that WH also gets buffs to allow for players who do not wish to belong to large null sec alliances (or rent) to have a viable gameplay experience. Simply buffing null only benefits players in alliances.

Hrm.... Wasn't I suppose to be ranting or something.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#878 - 2013-03-04 23:32:48 UTC
I'm glad people are taking the time here to ensure that my internet spaceship industry mirrors as closely as possible their bastardized version of economic history.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Tesal
#879 - 2013-03-04 23:58:24 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Its possible find common ground between hi-sec and null but its becoming clear that isn't really possible in this thread. The null agenda people are set on their program of changes which they developed and honed in other threads, and are now repeating over and over again. Any alternative to their program will not be considered. Flaws and difficulties in their plan are being actively ignored and sidestepped.

Bringing hi-sec slot costs into line with null costs, solutions to lack of low end minerals in null and other things cannot be discussed because the null people already have their position and are unwilling to budge.

If I try to make a constructive post that helps fix some of the perceived problems, look for a compromise position, or accept any of their points as a legitimate grievance, it will only taken it as a validation of their entire program. They will accept no alternatives to their plan. Its all or nothing. It doesn't matter to them how unrealistic their changes are, and that the odds of CCP actually following through with their changes is low bordering on the non-existent because they are so severe. They stick to their position with religious zeal. The only thing they guarantee with this behavior is full, unyielding opposition.

I find this thread entertaining though. I will continue to post. Never stop posting.

I must admit I do like new ideas and perceived problems.

So tell me your ideas so that I might convert to them if I believe they are better than the ones I currently have.


Go back in the thread and read them. I took the time to try to contribute to the thread and look at things from the opposite point of view. I proposed 2 things a bunch pages ago and they were all ignored. One was about bringing null POS costs into line with hi-sec slot costs. The other was about making low ends available in null at a competitive cost. If both of those don't happen I don't see how null can expect to challenge hi-sec. I frankly don't care enough about converting you to bother going back and re-posting them. I don't expect a different response from the one I already got. I don't expect you to try to meet me half way or to propose a reasonable alternative.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#880 - 2013-03-05 00:19:09 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
I'm glad people are taking the time here to ensure that my internet spaceship industry mirrors as closely as possible their bastardized version of economic history.

The one where highsec is the best ever, forever, I hope.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?