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Worth getting a T1/Navy BS before Mach for PvE?

Author
Numba2 Special
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-03-04 20:25:36 UTC
I recently fired the game back up after a year+ break. I've been running level 4 missions for a while to build up my wallet while deciding what to do, which I now think will be training for a Mach to run Incursions in. That's 3-4 months off as I have essentially 0 skills in Gunnery (aside from WU) and Minmatar/Gallente cruiser to just 3 (I plan on waiting until the expansion to inject Minmatar + Gallente BS so that I don't have to train their cruiser skills to 4).

My current skillplan involves getting Gunnery and Motion Prediction to 5, the rest of the gunnery support skills (besides Controlled Bursts) and Large AC Specialization to 4, then Minmatar BS to 4. At that point I would only be 2-3 days away from Gallente BS 4 as well. If I'm already able to comfortably run level 4's in my Raven is there any reason for me to get something like a Maelstrom first, or would I be safe going straight for the Mach?
Grombutz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-03-04 20:43:53 UTC
It really depends on how much missions you plan to do till you get into incursions. If you are running a lots of them (like 1-200) then it might be well worth it to use a CNR/Maelstrom/whateveryoulike.

Which BS you want to use in that case is personal preference and/or a choice of which skills you got.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-03-04 21:05:06 UTC
If you're comfortable with the Raven, then like the man says, depending on how many missions you're running, you might consider a CNR as an upgrade - if you can fly the standard Raven, then you can fly the Navy Raven, and get the extra tank and gank pretty much right away. Of course, the CNR is somewhat expensive (though the prices have dropped a bit recently), so it's a trade-off as to whether the faster mission clearing is worth the added expense of the faction battleship delaying you from saving up for the more expensive Mach.

By the time you'd be effective in a Maelstrom, you'd probably be almost ready for the Mach anyway, skill-wise; you've got to train all the way up through small and medium projectile guns to large guns before the Mael is worth undocking anyway.

With the CNR, you can take advantage of the pricier hull pretty much right away.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

Numba2 Special
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-03-04 21:12:11 UTC
Sorry, when I said Raven I meant I'm currently flying a CNR, so I'm running level 4's pretty efficiently already. But that seems to answer my question - once I can pilot a Maelstrom effectively I can train Gallente BS to 4 and fly a Mach fairly effectively. That sound about right?
Orlacc
#5 - 2013-03-04 21:56:04 UTC
I would recommend running a Mael for a bit as they duplicate the Mach in many ways.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-03-04 23:54:23 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
I would recommend running a Mael for a bit as they duplicate the Mach in many ways.


Mael is nothing like the Mach, if anything, it may get you into habits that will be dangerous for the Mach. Mael -> Vargur would be a close enough match though.
Orlacc
#7 - 2013-03-05 00:03:04 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Orlacc wrote:
I would recommend running a Mael for a bit as they duplicate the Mach in many ways.


Mael is nothing like the Mach, if anything, it may get you into habits that will be dangerous for the Mach. Mael -> Vargur would be a close enough match though.


I have flown both extensively. Although the Mach is indeed a different ship, you fit it pretty much like a Mach. You know, projectiles, shields,Gyros etc.. Certainly more than a CNR. And wtf does a Vargur have to do with OP's question??

Why some go out of their way to take a contrary position is beyond me. But it is usually the same bunch.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-03-05 00:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Orlacc wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Orlacc wrote:
I would recommend running a Mael for a bit as they duplicate the Mach in many ways.


Mael is nothing like the Mach, if anything, it may get you into habits that will be dangerous for the Mach. Mael -> Vargur would be a close enough match though.


I have flown both extensively. Although the Mach is indeed a different ship, you fit it pretty much like a Mach. You know, projectiles, shields,Gyros etc.. Certainly more than a CNR. And wtf does a Vargur have to do with OP's question??

Why some go out of their way to take a contrary position is beyond me. But it is usually the same bunch.


Mael and Mach are not just completely different, they're at opposite spectrum: slow tank vs fast gank. Mach needs to be on the move, Mael can't move. Mach is low on boost, small size, for semi-speed tank, Mael has high boost, large size, for sitting tank. They require completely opposite piloting styles.

Vargur has the tank to match Mael, is much slower than Mach, also has large sig radius, and a bit lower gank than Mach. The piloting style is closer to Mael than Mach's.

Not sure why you mentioned CNR, but it's piloting style is that of a conventional BS, closer to a Mael with sitting tank than a speed tanking Mach.
Orlacc
#9 - 2013-03-05 01:02:26 UTC
One more time for those who don't read the OP's posts. You can move the guns, shields and damage mods from a Mael to a Mach. saves isk. And as OP mentioned he is flying a CNR.

Not getting in a p**ssing match with someone who has issues, just trying to help OP.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-03-05 02:04:26 UTC
Too many people have had their Mach popped in stupid ways trying to fly it like a Mael after getting used to the Mael. It's not all about you. You should just admit it and make it clear so OP doesn't have to make a costly mistake like so many before.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#11 - 2013-03-05 06:13:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Go for mach don't invest in mael at all you already have some slug to earn you money mael will not change that in any significant way.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2013-03-05 18:55:53 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Go for mach don't invest in mael at all you already have some slug to earn you money mael will not change that in any significant way.


This.. Train both Bs to 4 train large projectile to 4, train gunnery support to 4. When you can fly the standard fit mach with T2 tank and be stable with the 100mn ab running you good to go. T1 meta 4 guns with some decent support skills will get you 1000ish DPS and you will be outperforming you CNR.
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-03-05 20:03:43 UTC
You're fine with the CNR for now until you train for a Mach. For practice try using it on easier missions like Cargo Delivery instead of jumping straight to something like Worlds Collide.
CannonFodder82
Dark EcheIon
#14 - 2013-03-06 10:56:35 UTC
CNR then Golem imo

i prefer it to my mach

and your skills shouldnt be too far off if you fly a CNR properly
Numba2 Special
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-03-06 14:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Numba2 Special
No, I'm not far off from a Golem (in fact that's what I was training for before I quit), but I want to move away from missiles as they seem to be frowned upon for most things besides solo PvE.

Also thank you for the responses everyone, I think I'll just stick the the CNR until I'm trained for the Mach.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2013-03-06 16:47:57 UTC
CannonFodder82 wrote:
CNR then Golem imo

i prefer it to my mach

and your skills shouldnt be too far off if you fly a CNR properly



I have really tried to like the Golem, but unless BS are sitting under 30 ish KM it really doesn't do a faster job than the mach. Being able to instapop frigs with 2-3 guns grouped is a huge advantage. Maybe if the golem could pack 5 lghts and 5 sentries it would work better.
Kalixian
The Mirrored
#17 - 2013-03-06 17:49:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalixian
Cage Man wrote:

I have really tried to like the Golem, but unless BS are sitting under 30 ish KM it really doesn't do a faster job than the mach. Being able to instapop frigs with 2-3 guns grouped is a huge advantage. Maybe if the golem could pack 5 lghts and 5 sentries it would work better.


You need javelins, max range skills, range implants, range rigs. Gives the Golem a 65KM range (effectively it's about 61-62).
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2013-03-06 18:24:59 UTC
Kalixian wrote:
Cage Man wrote:

I have really tried to like the Golem, but unless BS are sitting under 30 ish KM it really doesn't do a faster job than the mach. Being able to instapop frigs with 2-3 guns grouped is a huge advantage. Maybe if the golem could pack 5 lghts and 5 sentries it would work better.


You need javelins, max range skills, range implants, range rigs. Gives the Golem a 65KM range (effectively it's about 61-62).


Yep, but then the Mach will out damage/kill NPC first (of course you moving closer to the NPC as you shoot it @ 600+m/s so will be in optimal round 30km very quickly).
To me its all about play style.. sometime its nice to take it slow and salvage at the same time... sorta like a sunday afternoon drive Big smile
I have 4 x navy BCS and 2x TP on my fit, marauders 4, torp spec 4, implants and all missile support up to 4 and some 5.. so figure I have sufficient skills to use the golem, while in the mach I still run with T1 meta 4 guns Oops but still find the mach quicker.