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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#801 - 2013-03-04 14:19:19 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?

And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.


So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitiveness?

To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea.

Not at all you will notice I made a differentiation between a part time industrialist and a full time industrialist. Can I do what I do now with an indy ship, yes but it would suck more so do I need a freighter, no but I do love the time it saves me from the capital I out laid.

So here is a question for you on capital and skills, can a 1 day old newbie mine and manufacture on the level competitive with yourself? By your argument he should be able to without higher skills or any out lay.


There's a definite difference between having to skill up to an Iteron plus production efficiency 5 vs having to grind standings (and thus done missions or paid a good amount to get them or get a POS corp from 3rd party), having to buy the POS "hardware" including some hundreds of millions in labs and misc structures plus fielding what it takes to keep it fueled plus buying a freighter just to carry stuff to it.

The former takes a couple of days, the latter a year+ or more. And all of this just to be at the *baseline*.


I know I could easily join your side: I own my own JF, multiple freigthers, used to have my own BPO research service and still today I have multiple POSes scattered between my alts. I also have 3 or 4 alts with standings to deploy a POS any time.

I have both faction POSes and BPOs to make POSes but also all the labs and several accessory POS structures (guns, neuts, ecm etc., I like my POSes to be a b!tch to attack).

I have like 80B worth of BPOs and only because I don't want to buy more.

Even then, I'd hate to only see my self interest being rewarded while the "lessers" are left in the mud, struggling and unable to grow at a rewarding rate.
If a new player joins EvE they already have that nasty feeling of "everybody is a vet, I will never compete", by implementing all those ideas of yours that feeling would become solid reality.

As I said several times, I play multiplayer games since the '90s, I have seen so many of them fail for much less.

All the failed games (that did not start doomed at day zero already) at a certain point became stale.
All the failed games at that point had an established "elite" or "vets community". Those demand the game to be turned as they wish, they are always right, they always know the game inside out and far better than the developers!
All the failed games had developers blindly implementing what they were demanded.

All the failed games started losing new players, the only ones who can keep the players turnover from going negative over time.

At a certain point there's just the "vets" left and they have everything and are bored and then quit themselves and the game folds.

Now EvE is at a turning point, also due to the most terrible sov mechanics and due to ancient shortcomings slowly cumulating and causing issues.

And now EvE got their "elites" both in null sec and the forums and they demand the game to be changed to suit them. And they are infiltrating the CSM and the forums and 3rd party blogs and pressuring CCP to go their way.

Well I have witnessed too many debacles to let this one go ahead like this.

If CCP will come up with the next NGE it won't be because I did not warn them and everyone I can.

Because in the end it's not the "vets" or the "elite null seccers" who command the game but the totality of the players, which they don't represent at all but a very loud and self centered minority.

I know some changes ARE in order but not like this. They have to mesh in and slowly turn the game, not to re-format EvE to another game fast, it will just be the umpteenth shock that coupled with the obsolete "pay per sub" business model (plus the crysis) will just cause a snowball game desertification process.

Just no!


The voice of privilege speaks.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#802 - 2013-03-04 14:19:23 UTC
Stray Bullets wrote:
Regarding your comment about pissing in the wind, I consider myself a casual player these days, I make about 2bil a week, playing about 10h/week. I can't even think about competing with any serious builder or trader as we've all got the same base of operations. (NPC Stations)


So, 8-10B is casual now?

"Hey guys I buy my Supercarrier every 2-3 months I am casual, trust me!"

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#803 - 2013-03-04 14:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Malcanis wrote:

The voice of privilege speaks.


... and it's a sad day when the voice of privilege is closer to the "common folk" in EvE than those who pretends to speak for a majority and even self nominate themselves to represent them.


Except for the sad WWII ideology mentions and racketing, James315 is a much more hi sec community helper as CSM than this.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#804 - 2013-03-04 14:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Frying Doom wrote:

And frankly I have heard a lot about why I should have to be stuck at the level of a casual industrialist but nothing as to why Industrialists should be stuck on the level of the lazy risk adverse player. That comment was not such directed at you but all I keep hearing is why I should not be able to earn more than someone with less industry SP and little or no risk.


Even in the most capitalist contries, new blood are given a chance to grow and eventually compete against the established big guys. It's a generational refresh need.

By raising the bar to entry so much, you keep your already acquired privileges while denying others to even begin competing for their first 1-2 years of gaming.

You want to create an hard planted elite to belong to and put barriers in the face of potential new competitors. It's BAD.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#805 - 2013-03-04 14:25:53 UTC
Stray Bullets wrote:


At the moment, industry as it is, it's broken when it comes to risk vs reward.

What? So you support the elimination of Tech 2 BPOs?
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#806 - 2013-03-04 14:28:30 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
...The first step of this is to improve POSs and make them more attractive...
A 'Buff'... I like it. Big smile


PS. I don't have a POS either. Blink
Frying Doom
#807 - 2013-03-04 14:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
As to casual players not able to compete with dedicated indy players, why should they be? If I put in more hours and a crap load more capital why should they be able to be on the same profit margin as me? The fact that they can pretty much compete even though I take higher risks and expend billions a month definitely means reward = risk*capital is broken. So is the fact that the most profitable industry is done in NPC facilities in Hi-sec.


Profit margin? Heck even in RL a small entity can easily make the same or better profit margins than a larger one due to the "small and agile and efficient" factors. Yet the large entity will field huge numbers and in the end the small entity will easily earn their Honda for their CEO, while the large entity with same margins will earn their Ferraris collection for their CEO.

Ok so a real life analogy involving cars.

Toyota produces a lot of cars on a smallish profit margin. Nobel produce cars on a larger profit margin.

Toyota builds its own engines and uses suppliers for a lot of parts, these suppliers are forced to miniscule profit margins and Toyota's demands. Nobel buys its engine off someone else with no control over the profit margin on that engine or any of its other parts.

Nobel makes a lovely super sports car, for around 200,000 pounds. Yes they make money but sell few cars. Toyota make a lot less per unit but a lot more in total. Part of this being the profit from the Nobel is the wages for the builders while Toyota are on wages.

So whats the moral of this tale, owning your own manufacturing facilities allows you to be more competitive in the market place than those who do not. Allowing you to increase your profit margin.

As the small competitor for Toyota that owns no manufacturing facilities is who? (others may make nice cars but on most items of a similar type, they could not compete)

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#808 - 2013-03-04 14:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?

And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.


So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitiveness?

To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea.

Not at all you will notice I made a differentiation between a part time industrialist and a full time industrialist. Can I do what I do now with an indy ship, yes but it would suck more so do I need a freighter, no but I do love the time it saves me from the capital I out laid.

So here is a question for you on capital and skills, can a 1 day old newbie mine and manufacture on the level competitive with yourself? By your argument he should be able to without higher skills or any out lay.


There's a definite difference between having to skill up to an Iteron plus production efficiency 5 vs having to grind standings (and thus done missions or paid a good amount to get them or get a POS corp from 3rd party), having to buy the POS "hardware" including some hundreds of millions in labs and misc structures plus fielding what it takes to keep it fueled plus buying a freighter just to carry stuff to it.

The former takes a couple of days, the latter a year+ or more. And all of this just to be at the *baseline*.


I know I could easily join your side: I own my own JF, multiple freigthers, used to have my own BPO research service and still today I have multiple POSes scattered between my alts. I also have 3 or 4 alts with standings to deploy a POS any time.

I have both faction POSes and BPOs to make POSes but also all the labs and several accessory POS structures (guns, neuts, ecm etc., I like my POSes to be a b!tch to attack).

I have like 80B worth of BPOs and only because I don't want to buy more.

Even then, I'd hate to only see my self interest being rewarded while the "lessers" are left in the mud, struggling and unable to grow at a rewarding rate.
If a new player joins EvE they already have that nasty feeling of "everybody is a vet, I will never compete", by implementing all those ideas of yours that feeling would become solid reality.

As I said several times, I play multiplayer games since the '90s, I have seen so many of them fail for much less.

All the failed games (that did not start doomed at day zero already) at a certain point became stale.
All the failed games at that point had an established "elite" or "vets community". Those demand the game to be turned as they wish, they are always right, they always know the game inside out and far better than the developers!
All the failed games had developers blindly implementing what they were demanded.

All the failed games started losing new players, the only ones who can keep the players turnover from going negative over time.

At a certain point there's just the "vets" left and they have everything and are bored and then quit themselves and the game folds.

Now EvE is at a turning point, also due to the most terrible sov mechanics and due to ancient shortcomings slowly cumulating and causing issues.

And now EvE got their "elites" both in null sec and the forums and they demand the game to be changed to suit them. And they are infiltrating the CSM and the forums and 3rd party blogs and pressuring CCP to go their way.

Well I have witnessed too many debacles to let this one go ahead like this.

If CCP will come up with the next NGE it won't be because I did not warn them and everyone I can.

Because in the end it's not the "vets" or the "elite null seccers" who command the game but the totality of the players, which they don't represent at all but a very loud and self centered minority.

I know some changes ARE in order but not like this. They have to mesh in and slowly turn the game, not to re-format EvE to another game fast, it will just be the umpteenth shock that coupled with the obsolete "pay per sub" business model (plus the crysis) will just cause a snowball game desertification process.

Just no!


The voice of privilege speaks.

But after all of that I still dint here how the analogy of having to skill to max refine is somehow different to a newbie demanding that they should be able to compete with a player with PE 5 and 6.65 corp standings.

Also without the POS you would make slightly less profit, so all I can see is greed. You want for there to be no advantage to capital out lay and risk.

And changing from NPC facilities to PC is something that has been going on in this game for years. Ever heard of PI for example?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#809 - 2013-03-04 14:42:19 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Also without the POS you would make slightly less profit, so all I can see is greed. You want for there to be no advantage to capital out lay and risk.


Tell that to all those who demand station slots removal (not just higher price, which is what I myself would want to see).
With removal, there's no "sligthly less profit". There's the accomplished vets and then the poor sods.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#810 - 2013-03-04 14:47:34 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

And frankly I have heard a lot about why I should have to be stuck at the level of a casual industrialist but nothing as to why Industrialists should be stuck on the level of the lazy risk adverse player. That comment was not such directed at you but all I keep hearing is why I should not be able to earn more than someone with less industry SP and little or no risk.


Even in the most capitalist contries, new blood are given a chance to grow and eventually compete against the established big guys. It's a generational refresh need.

By raising the bar to entry so much, you keep your already acquired privileges while denying others to even begin competing for their first 1-2 years of gaming.

You want to create an hard planted elite to belong to and put barriers in the face of potential new competitors. It's BAD.

How is a few percent in profit a huge raising of the bar?

As I have said a lot so far if you don't want a POS don't use one, just increase your abilities to a perfect refine, there is no difference to that and a newbie having to train PE 5. yes you miss out on some profit someone who is risking more than you is taking.

If I am building an item like a JF I am risking the moon goo market does not collapse in the time I am building it, do I not deserve more profit than someone building a rifter?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#811 - 2013-03-04 14:50:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:

CONs
Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance....
Ugh

Sound like a very bad change.


Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.

I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?

Those facilities are available to nullsec players, also, at the same bargain price.
You could even make use of lowsec NPC facilities and never be more than a couple of jumps either way between your market and your manufacturing without having to do a single gate traversal.

You don't even need an alt to take advantage of this, so why the sour grapes?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Frying Doom
#812 - 2013-03-04 14:50:46 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Also without the POS you would make slightly less profit, so all I can see is greed. You want for there to be no advantage to capital out lay and risk.


Tell that to all those who demand station slots removal (not just higher price, which is what I myself would want to see).
With removal, there's no "sligthly less profit". There's the accomplished vets and then the poor sods.

I see no problem with the number of slots but I do with their cost and in the case of refine its efficiency compared to player owned.

Frankly there are too many people in hi-sec to reduce the slots and it would be to large a disadvantage to casual players.

I see no problem with casual players actually I welcome them, they still have isk to spend.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#813 - 2013-03-04 14:51:03 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

As the small competitor for Toyota that owns no manufacturing facilities is who? (others may make nice cars but on most items of a similar type, they could not compete)


You did not take into account:

- inefficiencies in such a long chain
- lack of brand or even "status symbol item" within the same company. That alone allows a small brand to ask for much more.
- less item customization like a small producer could do.
- expenses due to keeping huge stores of parts
- taxes affecting storage
- taxes affecting the terrains filled by the company branches
- inability to promptly adapt to ever changing requests, i.e. in case of crysis you can't just stop ordering stuff from a partner, you have to downsize.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#814 - 2013-03-04 14:52:45 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

If I am building an item like a JF I am risking the moon goo market does not collapse in the time I am building it, do I not deserve more profit than someone building a rifter?


As JF and marauder builder I have not a single issue at the profit a Rifter manufacturer is doing even as of today.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#815 - 2013-03-04 14:56:15 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

As the small competitor for Toyota that owns no manufacturing facilities is who? (others may make nice cars but on most items of a similar type, they could not compete)


You did not take into account:

- inefficiencies in such a long chain
- lack of brand or even "status symbol item" within the same company. That alone allows a small brand to ask for much more.
- less item customization like a small producer could do.
- expenses due to keeping huge stores of parts
- taxes affecting storage
- taxes affecting the terrains filled by the company branches
- inability to promptly adapt to ever changing requests, i.e. in case of crysis you can't just stop ordering stuff from a partner, you have to downsize.

No I went on reality, unless you can name me a car company that does not own (or use government facilities) and competes directly with Toyota.

As to most of the rest of your points, I could pick them apart but all I will say is when does a large company ever pay much tax and Lexus.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#816 - 2013-03-04 15:03:55 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

No I went on reality, unless you can name me a car company that does not own (or use government facilities) and competes directly with Toyota.


You went on reality, based on points I did not make. I made a case of a small company (small EvE Rifter builder) that even if it made as much margin as a large company (like you) he would still not be able to afford your own scale and thus he's still not able to "beat you".

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#817 - 2013-03-04 15:09:34 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

No I went on reality, unless you can name me a car company that does not own (or use government facilities) and competes directly with Toyota.


You went on reality, based on points I did not make. I made a case of a small company (small EvE Rifter builder) that even if it made as much margin as a large company (like you) he would still not be able to afford your own scale and thus he's still not able to "beat you".

So I will take that is tony in his back shed can not compete with Toyota within the same market.

And yes if he made rifters and I made jump freighters than yes the amount of my profit would be greater but back on the original point I was saying that if I was using my own manufacturing and he was renting it and we were both building rifters, does it not make sense that I should profit more per unit of rifter?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#818 - 2013-03-04 16:04:47 UTC
Stray Bullets wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
SB, I wouldn't dream of pretending that my opinion is unbiased. Of course its biased. The proposed solutions I've read would change my gameplay so fundamentally, I'd be playing a different game entirely. I'm passionate about this game, I enjoy logging in, and I don't want that to change. I can only contribute to this topic by giving a testimonial as to how those proposed changes would affect me personally - and the answer is negatively.

But you and I are operating under different base assumptions about EVE. Whereas you seem to think a lack of slots in null is evidence of imbalance, I've suggested that this is by design - both to foster conflict and specifically to ensure that null cannot produce "everything it needs." The game was designed for null to produce things on site that cannot be produced elsewhere but it wasn't intended to be self-sufficient. Trade with high sec is required. You don't get to leave 80% of the other characters behind and never come back. (And btw, I have no issue with increasing the number of slots on an outpost. It's all the buff null/ nerf high suggestions that would destroy my own gameplay I take issue with. If there's a way for everybody to be happy - I'm all for it.)

I can't possibly hope to write a dissertation on null economics. But I can point out that simply the number of a thing (characters/slots) in an area, in and of itself, is not evidence of game imbalance in the sense that the game is broken and needs fixing.

It was purposefully created that way. And I haven't seen a single reason stated yet that says why the game needs to be changed now except a cacaphony of wanting to have cake and also eat said cake.

YK


The reason this thread is called "nerf hisec" is because empire space just does everything that lowsec and nullsec do, regarding industry at least. If that wasn't bad enough, it does it with less risk and with higher efficiency facilities.

There's no point in going out to nullsec for industry if you have the best of all worlds in empire. Simply makes no sense. I've lived in null, wspace, lowsec and now empire and there's not even any kind of doubt that empire space is hands down the best space to live in if you're a indy player, with the exception of PI.

My original sugestion had 2 parts, where you'd have reduced hability from nullsec alliances to haul everything to and from empire and you'd have a motivation factor to empire dwelling indy players to move out to nullsec in the form of reduced efficiency in empire, while using NPC facilities. The other part would be actually reversing the efficiency on the NPC stations vs the nullsec outposts.

Nullsec needs to have more, empire needs to have less. Plain and simple. Reward must be equivalent to the risk. At the moment there's no risk in empire and there's no reward in nullsec.

This needs to change :) If you can't see why, then I can't explain it any other way. Sorry



For industry, highsec has more risk than nullsec since industry is based on creating, moving, and selling.

Not hostility brought on by combat. "Risk vs Reward" isn't only based on combat. But elemental risk in that field.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#819 - 2013-03-04 16:20:18 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
I haven't said I am against improving areas of the game (0.0 industry).

Except that you have, because you're refusing to accept a nerf to highsec.
You can't improve 0.0 industry without nerfing highsec. That's what this entire thread has been about and it's been demonstrated repeatedly.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#820 - 2013-03-04 16:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzy Warstl
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
I haven't said I am against improving areas of the game (0.0 industry).

Except that you have, because you're refusing to accept a nerf to highsec.
You can't improve 0.0 industry without nerfing highsec. That's what this entire thread has been about and it's been demonstrated repeatedly.

Pretending that something must be torn down to make something else better is the sign of a serious lack of imagination, or a simple desire for destruction.

The only problem with highsec industry is *anyone* can use it, and there is enough of it that there is no DOS attack that can be truly effective against that state of affairs.

Almost like it was designed to be that way so that no group of players could take control of that portion of the game completely.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs