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Time for Drones v2.0?
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General Rayne
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-12-16 12:34:25 UTC
The real problem is that most of the players in Eve as well as CCP treat drones as though they aren't intended as a primary weapon system. When you step back and look at the lore as well as dedicated Drone ships, this is absolutely ridiculous. The Gallente Federation rely heavily on Drones in their military.

What are the core problems with Drones compared to other weapon systems?

- Drones, unlike turrets on ships, are target-able and kill-able.
- Drones have to travel to and from Targets to apply damage (minus Sentry Drones). During this, they MWD straight at a target.
- T2 Drones are fairly expensive given their ease of loss
Hobgoblin II - 500k
Hammerhead II - 750k
Ogre II - 635k

Are there are quick fixes that could be applied?

- Make it so players/NPCs cannot target and kill Drones. The problem here is that all non-drone users will **** and moan about this until they're blue in the face... but would go on a rampage if their turrets were valid targets in combat...

-Change how they approach a target. We can all agree that they're most vulnerable traveling to and from targets. Once they're in orbit with the MWD turned off, they are less likely to die. Personally, I think that drones should have micro-jump drives installed on them. They would use these when traveling long distances to targets. This would still make it possible to kite and kill them, but would also allow a smart pilot to jump the back to their ship if they get into trouble.

- Remove drones themselves from the game, and replace them with modules that generate drones while active. These could be highslot items that would need to be active to work. After a drone is killed, their would be a cooldown period before it produces another drone of a specific type. This would allow killing drones to be a valid pvp tactic, but it would in turn allow players to treat drones more as ammunition.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-12-16 15:44:41 UTC
General Rayne wrote:
- Make it so players/NPCs cannot target and kill Drones. The problem here is that all non-drone users will **** and moan about this until they're blue in the face... but would go on a rampage if their turrets were valid targets in combat...


If this change went live, drones would still be killable by smartbombs. Also CCP could introduce a new hi-slot module, similar to Defender Missiles module, to combat drones. That way, it would be up to the player. If the player wanted to, he could fit that module (or smartbomb) and combat drones. And if he didn't, who's the blame but himself? But of course this wouldn't go well with non-drone users, because everything is drone users' fault, because they run missions AFK... Roll

Quote:
-Change how they approach a target. We can all agree that they're most vulnerable traveling to and from targets. Once they're in orbit with the MWD turned off, they are less likely to die. Personally, I think that drones should have micro-jump drives installed on them. They would use these when traveling long distances to targets. This would still make it possible to kite and kill them, but would also allow a smart pilot to jump the back to their ship if they get into trouble.


Straight line is still the fastest. Just reducing the MWD bloom effect, and severely toning down drone signature radius would help this. Also T2 drones should have T2 resist profile - currently both T1 and T2 drones have the same resists, which is, of course, utter nonsense. Besides, if #1 suggestion (drones can no longer be directly targeted) goes through, the change to how they approach isn't particularly important any more.

Quote:
- Remove drones themselves from the game, and replace them with modules that generate drones while active. These could be highslot items that would need to be active to work. After a drone is killed, their would be a cooldown period before it produces another drone of a specific type. This would allow killing drones to be a valid pvp tactic, but it would in turn allow players to treat drones more as ammunition.


Might work. But honestly, they might as well remove drones and leave it at that. Because the approach of "drones behave like ammo" not surprisingly brings drones closer to ammo. And we already have plenty of ammo. Why add another ammo type that's really no different? Might as well just scrap it completely, refund the SP and move on. This won't happen, of course, because it will also affect carriers.

Bottom line though? I'd settle for ANYTHING at this point. CCP really hasn't touched drones in years and years and years. Not since Trinity, if I remember right, at least not in any serious way.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#63 - 2012-12-16 17:44:51 UTC
Making Drones into a high slot module will mean an awful lot of rebalancing to do with every ship that uses them.

But I do think that making Drones into a weapon system rather than a 'controllable object' could be the way to go.

They are vulnerable to being shot at the moment, but they are not affected by ECM targeting the parent ship. They do take a long time to get to their target and are vulnerable in this time.

If they were made into a 'built in' module and treated as ammo, I think it void solve several problems without creating many other's, if any.

Make Drones work as a swarm. Their size and strength would be based on the bandwidth of the parent vessel and what group of Drones were active. It would be necessary to assign several 'preprogrammed' groups to the Drone Interface and load them prior to launch.

Keep them vulnerable to smartbombs but make the swarm difficult to target and take reduced effects from targeted ewar. Also, make ECM, Damping and Tracking Disruption that affects the parent ship affect its Drones.

Simplify the Drone UI with predefined command buttons. Include attacking other hostile Drones as a command.

Allow Drone repair while they are in the bay. Invent something similar to nanite paste if you have to, but give a means of repairing Drones without taking up multiple high slots.

That's the foundation of the future I currently want to see for Drones, though it needs more fleshing out.

Friends
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-12-16 18:27:53 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
But I do think that making Drones into a weapon system rather than a 'controllable object' could be the way to go.


Eeeeh, I'm not totally on board with something like this. It may end up this way, for convenience's sake, but I don't see it as optimal.

Most MMOs (heck, most games in general) tend to have what is termed a "pet class". That is, a class where the player controls not just his character, but also one or more pets characters. Like Necromancer in Diablo 2 and Age of Conan. Or Warlock and Hunter in WoW. Or Ranger and Necromancer in Guild Wars 2. Heck, in SWTOR all classes were "pet classes" as everyone had controllable NPC companions.

This really caters to a certain play style that people have. For example, of the two classes I mostly played in WoW, one was a warlock. And I loved the idea of different pets for different tasks. The other class, ironically, was a Druid. Not a pet class per se, but roughly the same at the core. Instead of bringing the different pet, your character morphed for various roles. And I've always had a preference for this kind of play style.

Currently, at least in theory, drones and drone boats are that "pet class" mechanic. But if drones turn from a controllable object into just another weapon module, that gameplay (such as it is) will be lost.

And I try to avoid bringing EWAR into any discussion, because...well...because I feel current EWAR in EVE is badly fracked up. I mean that sincerely. The binary nature of Caldari jamming and its 20 second effect is an absolute joke. And no, the new compensation skills are nowhere near enough to address the issue, it's a typical CCP "we did something about it, so now we can forget it for another few years" approach to the problem. To me, EWAR is a whole other can of worms that CCP might have to deal with somewhere between now and the heat death of the universe.
Zee87
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-12-16 18:50:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zee87
+1

Drone interface needs a serious rework! A few things I'd like to see:

An "attack" button you could simply press, and drones would go after current target.
A "return to dronebay" button, in case your drones start being attacked.
Right-click on a target, and "Attack with drones" or something to that effect.

I think I've lost like 7 drones since the AI was changed. Not really a big deal, but it sucks when I run out of light drones to handle frigates that are warp scrambling and/or webbing me.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#66 - 2012-12-16 20:56:25 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
But I do think that making Drones into a weapon system rather than a 'controllable object' could be the way to go.


Eeeeh, I'm not totally on board with something like this. It may end up this way, for convenience's sake, but I don't see it as optimal.

Most MMOs (heck, most games in general) tend to have what is termed a "pet class". That is, a class where the player controls not just his character, but also one or more pets characters. Like Necromancer in Diablo 2 and Age of Conan. Or Warlock and Hunter in WoW. Or Ranger and Necromancer in Guild Wars 2. Heck, in SWTOR all classes were "pet classes" as everyone had controllable NPC companions.

This really caters to a certain play style that people have. For example, of the two classes I mostly played in WoW, one was a warlock. And I loved the idea of different pets for different tasks. The other class, ironically, was a Druid. Not a pet class per se, but roughly the same at the core. Instead of bringing the different pet, your character morphed for various roles. And I've always had a preference for this kind of play style.

Currently, at least in theory, drones and drone boats are that "pet class" mechanic. But if drones turn from a controllable object into just another weapon module, that gameplay (such as it is) will be lost...

Thats a fair comment. The issue I have with EvE and the pet concept is the cost. WoW allows you to name and train your pets. You nurture them and you can easily heal them during a fight. When your pet dies, you have to wait and then then summon them again. They are none the worse for wear. In EvE, you have to go and buy your Drones and when they get damaged in a fight, your not really able to repair them on the fly, you have to either call them in and not use them or hope they survive long enough. When they cop it, they are gone. Do not pass go, do not collect £200. If you have a limited Drone bay you really feel the loss of every single Drone.

I just don't feel that EvE can be compared to other MMO's on almost any level. Given how its sandbox nature works, its so different to any other MMO those comparrisons are almost worthless.

If Drone behaviour can be suitably overhauled, along with their durability and most importantly they are given a fresh new UI, then I would be happy to keep them as controlable objects. They also really need a method of repair while in the bay.

Friends
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#67 - 2012-12-18 16:25:23 UTC
Bump

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Alundil
Rolled Out
#68 - 2012-12-18 17:26:17 UTC
+1 Completely support this. Drones need love too.

I'm right behind you
Backfire Kitty
Planned Obsolescence.
#69 - 2013-01-02 14:55:34 UTC
What about hi/mid slot module which would allow your drones to follow you in warp?
(bump)
Mund Richard
#70 - 2013-01-02 16:19:16 UTC
Backfire Kitty wrote:
What about hi/mid slot module which would allow your drones to follow you in warp?
I wouldn't mind drones doing that by default. Heck, could have been so since day one!
They sure have the signature for it compared to how small they are...
For PvE - well, folk don't care about PvE though it would be nice nonetheless.

For PvP it would have the effect of "expanding" your drone bay.
Then again, any ship that can warp out is not pointed, so it's not that game breaking.
Would help when you are on your opponent's turf a lot.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#71 - 2013-01-02 16:39:44 UTC
Good OP and thread. Would bump it all day.P

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Kirtar Makanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-01-02 16:54:33 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
But I do think that making Drones into a weapon system rather than a 'controllable object' could be the way to go.


Eeeeh, I'm not totally on board with something like this. It may end up this way, for convenience's sake, but I don't see it as optimal.

Most MMOs (heck, most games in general) tend to have what is termed a "pet class". That is, a class where the player controls not just his character, but also one or more pets characters. Like Necromancer in Diablo 2 and Age of Conan. Or Warlock and Hunter in WoW. Or Ranger and Necromancer in Guild Wars 2. Heck, in SWTOR all classes were "pet classes" as everyone had controllable NPC companions.

This really caters to a certain play style that people have. For example, of the two classes I mostly played in WoW, one was a warlock. And I loved the idea of different pets for different tasks. The other class, ironically, was a Druid. Not a pet class per se, but roughly the same at the core. Instead of bringing the different pet, your character morphed for various roles. And I've always had a preference for this kind of play style.

Currently, at least in theory, drones and drone boats are that "pet class" mechanic. But if drones turn from a controllable object into just another weapon module, that gameplay (such as it is) will be lost...

Thats a fair comment. The issue I have with EvE and the pet concept is the cost. WoW allows you to name and train your pets. You nurture them and you can easily heal them during a fight. When your pet dies, you have to wait and then then summon them again. They are none the worse for wear. In EvE, you have to go and buy your Drones and when they get damaged in a fight, your not really able to repair them on the fly, you have to either call them in and not use them or hope they survive long enough. When they cop it, they are gone. Do not pass go, do not collect £200. If you have a limited Drone bay you really feel the loss of every single Drone.

I just don't feel that EvE can be compared to other MMO's on almost any level. Given how its sandbox nature works, its so different to any other MMO those comparrisons are almost worthless.

To an extent, the last paragraph that I quoted nullifies the first paragraph completely. The concept of cost is embedded almost everywhere in EVE combat. If you get blown up, you lose your ship permanently. If you are podded, you lose any implants permanently, will probably have to pay to update your clone, and could lose SP if you failed to do so before. Perhaps on ship repairs would help, but the concept of permanent loss isn't something that is going to go away as it is the very basis of a lot of things in EVE.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#73 - 2013-01-02 19:00:17 UTC
Kirtar Makanen wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
But I do think that making Drones into a weapon system rather than a 'controllable object' could be the way to go.


Eeeeh, I'm not totally on board with something like this. It may end up this way, for convenience's sake, but I don't see it as optimal.

Most MMOs (heck, most games in general) tend to have what is termed a "pet class". That is, a class where the player controls not just his character, but also one or more pets characters. Like Necromancer in Diablo 2 and Age of Conan. Or Warlock and Hunter in WoW. Or Ranger and Necromancer in Guild Wars 2. Heck, in SWTOR all classes were "pet classes" as everyone had controllable NPC companions.

This really caters to a certain play style that people have. For example, of the two classes I mostly played in WoW, one was a warlock. And I loved the idea of different pets for different tasks. The other class, ironically, was a Druid. Not a pet class per se, but roughly the same at the core. Instead of bringing the different pet, your character morphed for various roles. And I've always had a preference for this kind of play style.

Currently, at least in theory, drones and drone boats are that "pet class" mechanic. But if drones turn from a controllable object into just another weapon module, that gameplay (such as it is) will be lost...

Thats a fair comment. The issue I have with EvE and the pet concept is the cost. WoW allows you to name and train your pets. You nurture them and you can easily heal them during a fight. When your pet dies, you have to wait and then then summon them again. They are none the worse for wear. In EvE, you have to go and buy your Drones and when they get damaged in a fight, your not really able to repair them on the fly, you have to either call them in and not use them or hope they survive long enough. When they cop it, they are gone. Do not pass go, do not collect £200. If you have a limited Drone bay you really feel the loss of every single Drone.

I just don't feel that EvE can be compared to other MMO's on almost any level. Given how its sandbox nature works, its so different to any other MMO those comparrisons are almost worthless.

To an extent, the last paragraph that I quoted nullifies the first paragraph completely. The concept of cost is embedded almost everywhere in EVE combat. If you get blown up, you lose your ship permanently. If you are podded, you lose any implants permanently, will probably have to pay to update your clone, and could lose SP if you failed to do so before. Perhaps on ship repairs would help, but the concept of permanent loss isn't something that is going to go away as it is the very basis of a lot of things in EVE.

This was essentialy my point. Without a viable means to maintain Drones in combat environment, the 'pet' concept comes unraveled. Drones are a finite resource. They can't really be replaced or repaired during a fight. Until this is remedied, they simply cannot fulfill the pet niche.

Other weapons are unaffected by any of these issues. If a drone boat loses a couple of drones but hasn't the spares to replace them, they are taking a big hot to their effectiveness. You can pick up ammo for turrets and launchers without a problem, but not replacement Drones.

Friends
Zadenko Lamavati
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-03-04 10:49:00 UTC
I would love this.

Also i want more believable ship movement acting like something heavy.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#75 - 2013-03-04 15:33:15 UTC
One thing I thought after the BC rebalancing about the prophecy... "there goes another drone boat... full of gal and min drones".

Some changes something along the lines of this would be nice to mix things up a bit:

Amarr drone boats and possibly some others like harbinger get say 5% bonus to amarr drone damage and 5% bonus to amarr drone mwd velocity
Specialised amarr drone boats get say 10% per level in the effectiveness of energy neut and tracking disruptor drones

Gal stick with their combat drone bonuses

Cal ecm boats get a slight nerf to their jam strength bonuses but an increase in their drone capabilities along with say 10% per level increase in effectiveness of ecm drones - would need some balancing so they can't do effective dps with drones while holding someone jammed instead of using jamming drones tho.

Min don't really have much in the way of real drone setups other than phoon and I believe the idea is to reduce that in the future but cyclone, phoon, etc. along that missile line could get a web and target painter bonus with drones that would help to apply their missile dps.
Arratus
Pax Imperia Inc.
#76 - 2013-03-04 15:50:01 UTC
+1

Arratus
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#77 - 2013-03-04 16:42:33 UTC
I do have a question I hope a dev, or someone else in the know, can answer:

Are Drones on the current rebalancing road map?
If so, will it be likely that they will be addressed within the next year or so?

Friends
Major Hawke
Pixel Knights
Dead Pixels Inc
#78 - 2013-03-05 17:18:47 UTC
+1
Drones need love.

Drone update suggestions: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=197943
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-03-05 17:52:10 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I do have a question I hope a dev, or someone else in the know, can answer:

Are Drones on the current rebalancing road map?
If so, will it be likely that they will be addressed within the next year or so?

All that was said in a dev blog is that they feel drones are in dire need or an overhaul and it is something that needs to be done soon

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
#80 - 2013-03-05 19:16:50 UTC
+1

I had to look up the comparison of logistic cruisers to Ogre II's, but yeah, they should not have the same sig rad. I feel anti drone duty is for smart bombs, smaller ships and scout drones.