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Crime & Punishment

 
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Can this type of behaviour warrent a ban?
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Echo Belly
#61 - 2013-03-04 14:03:01 UTC
OP on the one hand you're moaning about players playing the game as intended because you're slow enough to get owned twice the same way, and on the other hand you're perfectly ok with RL threats ? Ugh

You don't need CCP to "fix" things for you and the other mentally disturbed people who cry over internet spaceships... it's obvious all you need is a psychiatrist.

... or maybe just more awox Roll
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2013-03-04 14:29:10 UTC
Echo Belly wrote:

... or maybe just more awox Roll


AWOX - the cure for what ails you.

Disclaimer: AWOX brand should be taken with a steaming cup of HTFU for best effect. AWOX may cause bleeding from the ass. The makers of AWOX are not responsible for any explosions that may result from misapplication.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#63 - 2013-03-04 14:31:51 UTC
deeks87 deacon wrote:
the attacker mails me and says good luck recruiting because me and my friends are going to continue to burn your corp to the ground.

The quoted line caught my attention.
While it was perfectly within the rules to do what they did, they can't do it over and over again or it becomes harassment, which is a bannable offense.
It's up to the GMs to decide whether the line between still legal behavior and harassment is transgressed (and two strikes are most likely not enough), but if you include that mail in a petition it might help to tilt the balance in your favor if you have the same trouble with these people again.

And a RL threat is a "no go", but I think that's without question.
Kimo Khan
Rage Against All Reds
GunFam
#64 - 2013-03-04 14:45:51 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

Ask for a full API. Refusal to give, OR an instant handover of one, is a huge red flag.


Question: Why is instant handover of one a red flag? I ask because some corps require API to join, so if I give them one how does that make me red flagged?
deeks87 deacon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-03-04 15:19:26 UTC
This should make for an interesting read to anyone who wants to try to avoid these type of attacks.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115654

Those who forget the past, are destined to revisit it! use us for all your insurance needs @  http://igc-eve-online-insurance.webs.com
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2013-03-04 15:52:52 UTC
Xintri Ra'Virr wrote:
Once Dueling Game Mechanic is introduced to Eve, CCP should change aggro mechanic in hisec that way to dont allow ppl freely engage and kill their corpmates without being concordokken, but remote reps should work as now. Old mechanic is simply obsolette and causing more harm that gain now.

Being ganked by suicide Thrasher fleet is one thing, but being killed by some jerk who joined corp to pop all members during mining OP is another.


Why?

Harm in what way?

Do you mean harm in the sense that you find it unpleasant that your ships explode due to your lack of care or forethought?

In my perspective it does a great deal of good. It allows me to kill and loot as well as serves my ideological values of bringing carebears into the fold of people who are actually getting involved in the game and working towards their goals. That's immense good for the game. It's what differentiates this game from a really crappy grind-fest and makes the incredible stories that draw in and inspire new (or newly awakened) players.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Silus Morde
#67 - 2013-03-04 16:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Silus Morde
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Xintri Ra'Virr wrote:
Once Dueling Game Mechanic is introduced to Eve, CCP should change aggro mechanic in hisec that way to dont allow ppl freely engage and kill their corpmates without being concordokken, but remote reps should work as now. Old mechanic is simply obsolette and causing more harm that gain now.

Being ganked by suicide Thrasher fleet is one thing, but being killed by some jerk who joined corp to pop all members during mining OP is another.


Why?

Harm in what way?

Do you mean harm in the sense that you find it unpleasant that your ships explode due to your lack of care or forethought?

In my perspective it does a great deal of good. It allows me to kill and loot as well as serves my ideological values of bringing carebears into the fold of people who are actually getting involved in the game and working towards their goals. That's immense good for the game. It's what differentiates this game from a really crappy grind-fest and makes the incredible stories that draw in and inspire new (or newly awakened) players.

Just want to say, as a miner, people like you are good for the game. People like you have taught me many lessons.. usually in the form of my ship burning in space. From these lessons I lerned the importance of never flying a ship I cannot afford to replace. Always aligning to the station I operate out of. always being at the keyboard when mining, and not being afraid to run like hell if some one with nefarious purposes shows up in my belt. Also I have learned not to cry tears here, and to blame myself for the loss and find a way to prevent it in the future. There is also the realization that in EVE you will lose ships, which needs to be factored into the budget. So, Mr Monk, thank you and those wonderfully horrible gankers and pirates like you for the lessons learned and the challenge you bring to this game. Because without the danger, even in hi-sec I would not being playing this game. It would become just another boring and nerfed mmo. There are enough of those. my opinion

Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.
Vin King
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-03-04 16:27:26 UTC
deeks87 deacon wrote:
insults and idle threats are exchanged, my friend looses his temper admittedly he was a little out of order but he just lost a hulk and couldn't afford a new one.( so i completely understood why). following this argument my friend got an insta ban due to a stupid idle RL threat he made in the heat of the moment


To answer the question posed in the topic, yes IRL threats can warrant a ban, and should. Your friend was correctly banned for his behavior.

Proud member of the New Order of HighSec
Daoa Hakoke
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-03-04 16:35:14 UTC
deeks87 deacon wrote:
This should make for an interesting read to anyone who wants to try to avoid these type of attacks.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=115654


No clue as to why that thread is locked, but I don't think I've laughed so hard in a long time. Thank you for linking such an awesome thread.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2013-03-04 16:57:33 UTC
It's just locked because it's super old.

It's my intent to update it at some point soon, so there may be a new thread for you to comment on.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
deeks87 deacon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-03-04 17:11:08 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
It's just locked because it's super old.

It's my intent to update it at some point soon, so there may be a new thread for you to comment on.


Thanks for this guide! I have some idea what to lookout for now.

Those who forget the past, are destined to revisit it! use us for all your insurance needs @  http://igc-eve-online-insurance.webs.com
Daoa Hakoke
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-03-04 17:13:12 UTC
Don't know why I didn't think to look at the date, oh well.
Kane Alvo
Doomheim
#73 - 2013-03-04 17:55:12 UTC
TLDR:

1 - We were too new to form our own corp, but we did anyway.
2 - Corp was infiltrated and we were not prepared.
3 - Members lost ships, and it was my fault (see #1 and #2).
4 - Friend broke Eve's Golden Rule: Do not fly what you can't afford to replace.
5 - Friend broke another rule by making RL threats and was banned.

This is my only gripe with the game: new players should not be allowed to form corporations. There are so many defunct and utterly worthless player corps. They should be purged from the database.

Corp Management skill needs to be buried at least 3 tiers deep in the Social skill set. You shouldn't be able to form a corporation within a day of starting the game. Raise the cost of starting a corp to 100m, and make it a requirement that you need to be in a fleet of at least 10 members to even start it.

Still TLDR:

Corp Management needs a serious overhaul from the ground up. Someone call Chip Foose.

Caldari Militia  ☜★☞ Psychotic Monk for CSM8

Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-03-04 18:21:02 UTC
Kane Alvo wrote:


This is my only gripe with the game: new players should not be allowed to form corporations. There are so many defunct and utterly worthless player corps. They should be purged from the database.

Corp Management skill needs to be buried at least 3 tiers deep in the Social skill set. You shouldn't be able to form a corporation within a day of starting the game. Raise the cost of starting a corp to 100m, and make it a requirement that you need to be in a fleet of at least 10 members to even start it.


That'd ruin the sandbox a bit. If people want to start up a corp without knowing a huge amount about it, let them.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-03-04 18:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Psychotic Monk
That same argument can be applied to ships. This is a sandbox, if people want to fly Nightmares before they know how to place a module in a fitting slot, you should let them, yes? Why not reduce the skills required to fly them to a 20 minute train after character creation?

Badly run corps shackling newbies and sapping their power does more harm to basically anything else in this entire game.

edit: Not that I'm against people flying ships they shouldn't be. That's just another killmail for my friends and me.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#76 - 2013-03-04 18:58:27 UTC
@ the OP. The behaviour of infiltrating a corp that is fairly new and just wants to do quiet things (a massive assumption of course, you may be evil.. who knows). Blowing them all to hell then telling them they'll be followed till the corp closes (or worse) is bullshit.

However this is EVE and one of the great things is that you can A) do something about it if you arm yourself with knowledge and b) blow them to hell and back yourselves.

The issue most people will have is you won't do either. Prats that they are you have all the tools to deal with them you need.
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#77 - 2013-03-04 19:06:47 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Kane Alvo wrote:


This is my only gripe with the game: new players should not be allowed to form corporations. There are so many defunct and utterly worthless player corps. They should be purged from the database.

Corp Management skill needs to be buried at least 3 tiers deep in the Social skill set. You shouldn't be able to form a corporation within a day of starting the game. Raise the cost of starting a corp to 100m, and make it a requirement that you need to be in a fleet of at least 10 members to even start it.


That'd ruin the sandbox a bit. If people want to start up a corp without knowing a huge amount about it, let them.


I tend to agree with this (although I agree with nothing else you have written in this thread, Mr. Takseen) Let them do it. It's likely to end badly, of course, but for a lot of new players it's the only way they ever get out of those soul-destroying starter corps. Then, with any luck, somebody comes along and wardecs them or AWOXes them, forces them to react, and in so doing wakes some of them up to the greater game.

Oh Monk, I agree with your basic sentiment, but my experience has been that many (perhaps most) corps started by older characters are just as badly run as those started by new players, and equally likely to propagate the myth of the helplessness of the newbie. I've spent the last year or so working to empower new players and show them how to murder and steal people's imaginary spaceships and possessions, and I find this attitude pervasive even in large, well known corps run by veteran players. Nowhere, however, is as bad for the new player's game experience as their starter corp.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2013-03-04 19:24:39 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:

Oh Monk, I agree with your basic sentiment, but my experience has been that many (perhaps most) corps started by older characters are just as badly run as those started by new players, and equally likely to propagate the myth of the helplessness of the newbie. I've spent the last year or so working to empower new players and show them how to murder and steal people's imaginary spaceships and possessions, and I find this attitude pervasive even in large, well known corps run by veteran players. Nowhere, however, is as bad for the new player's game experience as their starter corp.


A fair point. Lots of people end up being 'vets' without actually getting good at anything. And no amount of skillpoint barrier will change that. The only solution I can offer is that pressure should be applied to corps so that the weak ones break and have less of a chance to poison our precious newbies.

That said, I blame rap music for this.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#79 - 2013-03-04 19:45:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
deeks87 deacon wrote:

Like i said i accept that and I'm all for that ,i learned from this and I'm glad it happened sooner rather than later. However i just don't like the fact that it drives some players to rage quit, and if it is working fine why are CCP adding patches to make high sec safer ?and why is concord even there is it's a %100 ruthless sandbox like it is said to be.


Here is where we transcend a game's own rules and get into the ever-so-murky world of human psychology.

Whatever the event may be, you can never guarantee that everyone in a group of affected people will react to it the same way. The event can be completely within the bounds of the rules, but there will be those who are unprepared to handle it. In EVE, Awoxing, corp theft, and the like is a good example of this. What amplifies the impact of these types of events are their tendency to be sudden and unexpected, causing those who never considered them to literally be bowled over, perhaps emotionally.

Now, one can easily point out that the people who react in the way the OP, and specifically the OP's corpmate did, indicates a degree of naïveté that is not uncommon amongst EVE players. I'll just put this bluntly - claiming ignorance of both the rules and possible outcomes of gameplay choices is not an excuse, and it's an excuse that will get you mocked in forums such as this. If you're going to start off with "But I didn't know..." or "But I thought...", these are the first signs that you probably didn't care to learn as much about the goings-ons in EVE as you should have. Not seeing the space through the asteroids, so to speak.

EVE is a strategy game. If covering all your bases regarding this is something that you find too tiring or not relevant to your interests, then there are options you can choose from that will limit your exposure to a litany of Bad Things, but the routes you can take to do so will (by design) limit your options in other areas.

/T
Sixx Spades
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2013-03-04 20:05:12 UTC
If I recall correctly, training into an Exhumer takes 40 days and requires some amount of isk to purchase the hull. A Mining Barge, on the other hand, takes around 10 days and costs significantly less than their T2 variants. There is a bit of progressive scaling when it comes to ship value loss and time spent playing the game. Furthermore, to aid newer players with escaping easier from unwanted ganks, they've even added an inherent +2 warp stability to the Venture. Ventures, therefore, are not what many gankers would target due to the difficulty to pinning one and the fact that they cost pennies to repurchase.

The training time and the isk barrier into larger ships is a natural way for a player to become more accustomed To say that miners don't have ample time to figure out certain dangers that may be present during that period of time is highly farcical.

I ganked their Mackinaw and Retriever with a character that probably had around 4 days worth of training on it. There were a ton of ways for me to lose out on this gank, even before the OP got spooked by the first awoxer. None of these avenues were explored and even their older members were absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that I would have the gall to attack corpmates when, previously, another member had told them about his encounters with other awoxers in another corp.

...oh, wait, lemme pull up the proper log for this:
melDraakus wrote:
You don't fight a war against civilians. You're the threat.


You signed up for Eve: Online, pilot. You're not a civilian in a video game based around internet spaceships. Given the opportunity by other pilots, you can and will be destroyed when the chance presents itself.

In regards to these supposed "ragequits" that get thrown around like evidence, I'd like to leave you with this little tidbit. I recently wrote a small set of instructions on how to engage in this activity on the cheap with little to no experience whatsoever. My friend, who had only been interested in hearing about this game in passing, found himself motivated enough to give awoxing a try. After nuking his first corp and bagging himself a couple of Exhumers (with whatever reaction he pried from them in the process), he was convinced to give this game a try in earnest and subbed his account.

Using a weapon as a deterrent in a diplomatic situation is only viable when you have proven that you have deployed it in the past and are willing to use it in the future.