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Fix Null > Nerf Hi

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Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#781 - 2013-03-04 11:48:26 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
... we need a NPC facility price rise...
Why? Aren't NPC facilities available to everyone?
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#782 - 2013-03-04 11:51:29 UTC
Primary Me wrote:
...in order for nullsec to be able to compete with the perfect industry in hi-sec..
Then you would support allowing Moon mining in Highsec?
Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#783 - 2013-03-04 12:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Stray Bullets
When I suggested that industry in empire should be phased to POSs I wasn't expecting such a discussion.

From what I've read, I see the mindset that's causing the lack of balance between empire and null. People in empire just expect to have all the facilities available, at any point, with zero effort involved.

What I actually suggested was:


  • Increased indy slots on player built outposts and possibly POS
  • Decrease or tax indy slots on NPC stations to make building in POSs or null more profitable compared to building in NPC stations (Risk vs Reward. You risk a wardec, with a corp that has several POSs running multiple builds, you should get more reward!)
  • Inverting the refinery efficiency for NPC stations to Nullsec outposts. Empire NPC stations become the less efficient way to refine stuff.
  • Ability to anchor small refineries in highsec
  • Decrease in mobility for nullsec. Cool down timers on capitals jump drives and removal or rework of jump bridges


PROs
Would shift a large part of the industrial work to nullsec due to:
  • Hauling built items is not longer that viable / easy
  • Building is actually more efficient if done locally
  • Null would actually be seed the empire markets with T2 items for a profit

Would balance out risk vs reward in almost all regions: (haven't talked about lowsec).
  • Industrials who risk more (having a wardeccable corp with POSs anchored) would always be more efficient than players using NPC services.
  • Players using null, either in outposts or POSs would always be more efficient


CONs
Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance

It all comes down to risk vs reward. At the moment, industry has no reward in moving to higher risk, be it in a POS in highsec or moving to nullsec.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#784 - 2013-03-04 12:23:45 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
It has nothing to do with forcing anyone.

If people want to be able to have a more competitive pricing on goods they sell then they get the money, learn to set up a POS and gain the rewards.

Those that don't, Don't


Considering the pleas to completely remove NPC station slots, it'd be totally forced.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#785 - 2013-03-04 12:25:23 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
... we need a NPC facility price rise...
Why? Aren't NPC facilities available to everyone?


They're not available to industrialist in sov 0.0 or W-space.

So in over half the map, no, they aren't.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#786 - 2013-03-04 12:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Malcanis wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
... we need a NPC facility price rise...
Why? Aren't NPC facilities available to everyone?


They're not available to industrialist in sov 0.0 or W-space.

So in over half the map, no, they aren't.
So, the can do it... it is open to them. They choose not to go where it is available.

If I want to Moon mine, I have to go where it is available… why should industrialist be different?
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#787 - 2013-03-04 12:46:49 UTC
Stray Bullets wrote:

CONs
Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance....
Ugh

Sound like a very bad change.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#788 - 2013-03-04 13:00:17 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
... we need a NPC facility price rise...
Why? Aren't NPC facilities available to everyone?


They're not available to industrialist in sov 0.0 or W-space.

So in over half the map, no, they aren't.
So, the can do it... it is open to them. They choose not to go where it is available.

If I want to Moon mine, I have to go where it is available… why should industrialist be different?


There are plenty of moons in NPC space. You can't moon mine in W-space though.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#789 - 2013-03-04 13:01:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:

CONs
Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance....
Ugh

Sound like a very bad change.


Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.

I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#790 - 2013-03-04 13:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Frying Doom wrote:

It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?

And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.


So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitiveness?

To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#791 - 2013-03-04 13:28:52 UTC
Stray Bullets wrote:
When I suggested that industry in empire should be phased to POSs I wasn't expecting such a discussion.


    Would balance out risk vs reward in almost all regions: (haven't talked about lowsec).[list]
  • Industrials who risk more (having a wardeccable corp with POSs anchored) would always be more efficient than players using NPC services.
  • Players using null, either in outposts or POSs would always be more efficient



And this is the first hypocrital bias.

Low sec and NPC null sec should be THE places for huge income because they are far riskier than sov null sec will ever be.
Yet these are always put in parentheses, because you and the others don't give a single fu*k to the "overall good of the game" but only at your little moon goo spitting receptacle and screw off everybody else.


And here is the second:

Stray Bullets wrote:

CONs
Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance


Casual players are already unable to compete with focused corps and alliances yet they are a majority in the game.
The more you p!ss against the wind by pushing them out, the more you get your face yellow.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#792 - 2013-03-04 13:43:08 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?

And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.


So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitiveness?

To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea.

Not at all you will notice I made a differentiation between a part time industrialist and a full time industrialist. Can I do what I do now with an indy ship, yes but it would suck more so do I need a freighter, no but I do love the time it saves me from the capital I out laid.

So here is a question for you on capital and skills, can a 1 day old newbie mine and manufacture on the level competitive with yourself? By your argument he should be able to without higher skills or any out lay.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#793 - 2013-03-04 13:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Malcanis wrote:


Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.

I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?
I am not a manufacturer... so I can't say I am happy or not about the situation.

I like the idea of adding features that allow more styles of play... such a 0.0 manufactures being more viable. I dislike the idea of 'nerf' the other guy because the game is too hard.
Frying Doom
#794 - 2013-03-04 13:50:17 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:
When I suggested that industry in empire should be phased to POSs I wasn't expecting such a discussion.


    Would balance out risk vs reward in almost all regions: (haven't talked about lowsec).[list]
  • Industrials who risk more (having a wardeccable corp with POSs anchored) would always be more efficient than players using NPC services.
  • Players using null, either in outposts or POSs would always be more efficient



And this is the first hypocrital bias.

Low sec and NPC null sec should be THE places for huge income because they are far riskier than sov null sec will ever be.
Yet these are always put in parentheses, because you and the others don't give a single fu*k to the "overall good of the game" but only at your little moon goo spitting receptacle and screw off everybody else.


And here is the second:

Stray Bullets wrote:

CONs
Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance


Casual players are already unable to compete with focused corps and alliances yet they are a majority in the game.
The more you p!ss against the wind by pushing them out, the more you get your face yellow.

Ok well first point no sov space is not very dangerous at the moment for members of the big blue donut, that is why their is a push to get Sov made usage based and to get industry fixed.

As to casual players not able to compete with dedicated indy players, why should they be? If I put in more hours and a crap load more capital why should they be able to be on the same profit margin as me? The fact that they can pretty much compete even though I take higher risks and expend billions a month definitely means reward = risk*capital is broken. So is the fact that the most profitable industry is done in NPC facilities in Hi-sec.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#795 - 2013-03-04 13:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.

I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?
I am not a manufacturer... so I can't say I am happy or not about the situation.

By the same token, I am not a dedicated PvPer so does that mean that all PvP players should be handicaped because I do not wish to spend the SP and time learning PvP?

Sorry if that is incorrectly aimed, losing who is who as its bloody late here.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#796 - 2013-03-04 13:58:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Stray Bullets wrote:
When I suggested that industry in empire should be phased to POSs I wasn't expecting such a discussion.


    Would balance out risk vs reward in almost all regions: (haven't talked about lowsec).[list]
  • Industrials who risk more (having a wardeccable corp with POSs anchored) would always be more efficient than players using NPC services.
  • Players using null, either in outposts or POSs would always be more efficient



And this is the first hypocrital bias.

Low sec and NPC null sec should be THE places for huge income because they are far riskier than sov null sec will ever be.
Yet these are always put in parentheses, because you and the others don't give a single fu*k to the "overall good of the game" but only at your little moon goo spitting receptacle and screw off everybody else.


And here is the second:

Stray Bullets wrote:

CONs
Would make it impossible for the casual player to compete with a dedicated and indy focused player/corp/alliance


Casual players are already unable to compete with focused corps and alliances yet they are a majority in the game.
The more you p!ss against the wind by pushing them out, the more you get your face yellow.



Mate, I'm a highsec industrial player. I've lived in pretty much every kind of space there is (npc null, sov null, wspace, lowsec, empire) and nothing beats empire space for efficiency in industry. I really don't care about moogoo as I've got none. I currently do ice mining and play the markets in highsec. Used to do capital building in sov null but that just hard work for a crap pay while having **** tons more risk than in empire space.

Regarding your comment about pissing in the wind, I consider myself a casual player these days, I make about 2bil a week, playing about 10h/week. I can't even think about competing with any serious builder or trader as we've all got the same base of operations. (NPC Stations)

In no way I think I should be entitled to competing with someone who risks more and puts in more time that I do. If you risk more, you should get more. I wouldn't mind getting a POS in highsec, even declaring war on some pubbie corp to get their moon slot ... but currently, I get nothing from declaring war on a corp besides the spot to anchor a POS, which by itself gives me nothing except maybe lower times on slots.

At the moment, industry as it is, it's broken when it comes to risk vs reward.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#797 - 2013-03-04 14:10:21 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.

I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?
I am not a manufacturer... so I can't say I am happy or not about the situation.

By the same token, I am not a dedicated PvPer so does that mean that all PvP players should be handicaped because I do not wish to spend the SP and time learning PvP?
The assumption was... "I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine"

I haven't said I am against improving areas of the game (0.0 industry).
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#798 - 2013-03-04 14:12:24 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

It really is not that hard to mine in a systems store the stuff and do one or 2 jumps in a freighter I do it every couple of days as where I am a lot of the systems get mined out. or do you want that fixed so they are never ending?

And if you are moving through so many systems a day that to be in its proximity you would need to move it 4 times a day, you are barely mining now.


So, not only an EvE player is meant to have a totally higher learning and access curve by having to buy POS and set it up but ALSO buy 1.5B worth of freigther just to slowly approach competitiveness?

To me it seems an endless flowering of terrible idea after terrible idea.

Not at all you will notice I made a differentiation between a part time industrialist and a full time industrialist. Can I do what I do now with an indy ship, yes but it would suck more so do I need a freighter, no but I do love the time it saves me from the capital I out laid.

So here is a question for you on capital and skills, can a 1 day old newbie mine and manufacture on the level competitive with yourself? By your argument he should be able to without higher skills or any out lay.


There's a definite difference between having to skill up to an Iteron plus production efficiency 5 vs having to grind standings (and thus done missions or paid a good amount to get them or get a POS corp from 3rd party), having to buy the POS "hardware" including some hundreds of millions in labs and misc structures plus fielding what it takes to keep it fueled plus buying a freighter just to carry stuff to it.

The former takes a couple of days, the latter a year+ or more. And all of this just to be at the *baseline*.


I know I could easily join your side: I own my own JF, multiple freigthers, used to have my own BPO research service and still today I have multiple POSes scattered between my alts. I also have 3 or 4 alts with standings to deploy a POS any time.

I have both faction POSes and BPOs to make POSes but also all the labs and several accessory POS structures (guns, neuts, ecm etc., I like my POSes to be a b!tch to attack).

I have like 80B worth of BPOs and only because I don't want to buy more.

Even then, I'd hate to only see my self interest being rewarded while the "lessers" are left in the mud, struggling and unable to grow at a rewarding rate.
If a new player joins EvE they already have that nasty feeling of "everybody is a vet, I will never compete", by implementing all those ideas of yours that feeling would become solid reality.

As I said several times, I play multiplayer games since the '90s, I have seen so many of them fail for much less.

All the failed games (that did not start doomed at day zero already) at a certain point became stale.
All the failed games at that point had an established "elite" or "vets community". Those demand the game to be turned as they wish, they are always right, they always know the game inside out and far better than the developers!
All the failed games had developers blindly implementing what they were demanded.

All the failed games started losing new players, the only ones who can keep the players turnover from going negative over time.

At a certain point there's just the "vets" left and they have everything and are bored and then quit themselves and the game folds.

Now EvE is at a turning point, also due to the most terrible sov mechanics and due to ancient shortcomings slowly cumulating and causing issues.

And now EvE got their "elites" both in null sec and the forums and they demand the game to be changed to suit them. And they are infiltrating the CSM and the forums and 3rd party blogs and pressuring CCP to go their way.

Well I have witnessed too many debacles to let this one go ahead like this.

If CCP will come up with the next NGE it won't be because I did not warn them and everyone I can.

Because in the end it's not the "vets" or the "elite null seccers" who command the game but the totality of the players, which they don't represent at all but a very loud and self centered minority.

I know some changes ARE in order but not like this. They have to mesh in and slowly turn the game, not to re-format EvE to another game fast, it will just be the umpteenth shock that coupled with the obsolete "pay per sub" business model (plus the crysis) will just cause a snowball game desertification process.

Just no!

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#799 - 2013-03-04 14:15:55 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
As to casual players not able to compete with dedicated indy players, why should they be? If I put in more hours and a crap load more capital why should they be able to be on the same profit margin as me? The fact that they can pretty much compete even though I take higher risks and expend billions a month definitely means reward = risk*capital is broken. So is the fact that the most profitable industry is done in NPC facilities in Hi-sec.


Profit margin? Heck even in RL a small entity can easily make the same or better profit margins than a larger one due to the "small and agile and efficient" factors. Yet the large entity will field huge numbers and in the end the small entity will easily earn their Honda for their CEO, while the large entity with same margins will earn their Ferraris collection for their CEO.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#800 - 2013-03-04 14:19:15 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


Although you seem quite happy for that situation to apply to manufacturers who aren't in hi-sec.

I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine", eh?
I am not a manufacturer... so I can't say I am happy or not about the situation.

By the same token, I am not a dedicated PvPer so does that mean that all PvP players should be handicaped because I do not wish to spend the SP and time learning PvP?
The assumption was... "I guess this is a case of "**** you, got mine"

I haven't said I am against improving areas of the game (0.0 industry).

Personally I am not a 0.0 player, I have done that found it completely unrewarding and left. To be honest I would consider going back if it was improved but more likely I would stay as I am.

I am not about improving Null Industry but Improving Industry its self. The first step of this is to improve POSs and make them more attractive to industry types rather than just being a way to save some time researching BPOs as they are now.

And frankly I have heard a lot about why I should have to be stuck at the level of a casual industrialist but nothing as to why Industrialists should be stuck on the level of the lazy risk adverse player. That comment was not such directed at you but all I keep hearing is why I should not be able to earn more than someone with less industry SP and little or no risk.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!